[polarbare]

So who else is excited about all the new 60"+ LCD TV's coming out? I currently have a Samsung 61" DLP, but have been chomping at the bit to pick up an LCD TV (I do game, and I don't wish to deal with image retention on plasmas) - going down in size is not an option.

As you well know, the choices for 60"+ LCD's is curently limited, so I'm ecstatic about all the new offerings this year. Unfortunately, it also means I have to wait to see how those different sets stack up against each other.


Toshiba's offerings look great, but it looks like they will be dang expensive. Not sure how much innovation Samsung is bringing to the table on their 65" set. Haven't seen much info for LG, and Sharp's new quad color set is likely to be up there in price as well.


Hopefully, more info will trickle in about these larger sets over the next few months.


So - who else is waiting?

 

[rmcam1]

I am also in that camp. Currently have the Sammy 67". Waiting on the XVTPRO720SV LED LCD HDTV. Yep! That would be the Vizio 72".

 

[Jonathan Teller]

I'm with you!


I'm at the point though where I really do not know if I will ever find a display that makes me truly happy. My current Pioneer KRP-600M plasma comes close by basically having a nearly flawless picture. But the damn thing buzzes and I find that annoying as hell!


Panasonic's reaction of "there is no black level problem. Move along. Shut up about it and stop bothering us 'cause we ain't gonna do anything about it" has lost them a customer for life.


Samsung's insistence on offering nothing but glossy screens takes them out of the running for me.


Sony seems to be following Samsung down the glossy screen rabbit hole, so they're out.


LG's top-o-the-line models have glossy screens now too...such a shame.


Sharp can't seem to figure out that competent video processing might be a good idea.


So I'm basically down to Vizio as my only hope! Can't even buy them locally up here in Canada, but I'll do what I have to in order to get what I want.


I'd like to have 3D. I need 60" or larger. I still want close-to-Kuro black levels and contrast. I still want zero motion blur. I still want accurate colours. I still want no 3:2 pull-down judder, but no stupid Soap Opera smoothing either. I WANT NO BUZZ.


I just want a perfect TV! Is that REALLY so much to ask? lol

 

[dopesun]

Hey. I thought i was the only one that felt this way. Im needing a new 60 incher myself. One that wont give input lag while im shooting it up on COD M2 (XBOX 360) or give me motion blur while im loving the blu ray on my PS3.. WTF? Ive had this Sony KP-46WT510 rear projection monster for six years now and it seems there is no new technology thats better.


Those Sharp Aquos quad pixel sets look kool.

 

[frito]

if you guys are concerned about input lag you should probably look into plasma, image retention is not a big issue really if you read into it, as an owner of a Panny 50X1 i've yet to have major IR problems on it and when it does happen its very hard to see and goes away very quickly.


these modern LCD TV's just seem to keep getting laggier and laggier every year just take a look in my input lag thread in my sig, just got a new Sony 52EX701 owner to test his TV and its got massive input lag and is using the new Sharp panel in it...


I was honestly hoping for good performance from these new Sharp X-Gen panels due to sharp's track record of making LCD TV's with low input lag in game modes, still holding out some hope that when Sharp's model's get tested that they have low lag but as input lag is largly tied to the panel's built in lag i find it hard to see the lag magically going down from the 60-80ms that sony has to a usable 15-30 ms without some major compromises in the image quality department esp in regards to blurring at the pixel level

 

[dopesun]

Hey Frito thanks for the response. Im familiar with ur work as i have read almost everything on this site (except plasma forums). I think its sad that there is even a such thing as input lag. About plasmas, i dont think i would be able to live with image retention in a $2000+ set. From what ive come to understand plasmas do have a very nice picture. What originally turned me away from plasmas is seeing some really nice ones over here in NYC displayed outside Rockefeller Centers CNN building. They were broadcasting CNN all day, every day. the images burnt onto the screen were very noticeable and disgusting. some days i get together with my friends and play COD MW 2's 360 version for 6 to 8 hours. Wouldn't that do damage to the plasmas? Also wouldn't plasmas eat up electricity? Do you have any suggestions for 60 inch plasmas that i could look into that would be perfect for me? Thanks buddy. Seeing that there r others having my same issues, im hoping these posts can help us all choose the right TV...

 

[wirechild73]

I am also waiting on a 60" LCD set to replace my SXRD. I am really hopefully to get one this year, but so far it isn't looking good. Unfortunately for me I don't think I can go any larger than 60", I might try though as there seems to be a few 65" sets that look nice.

 

[Jonathan Teller]

dopesun,


My current display is a 60" Pioneer Kuro KRP-600M plasma monitor. I have only two complaints about it:


1) It buzzes.


All plasmas buzz. In fact, almost all displays make some sort of operational noise of some sort. Maybe a fan, maybe a "whine", maybe just power supply hum. My Kuro doesn't really buzz any louder than any of my previous plasmas (a Samsung and an LG), but the Kuro is different in that the buzz actually emanates from the screen itself!


Most other plasmas actually have a second layer of glass over the plasma panel, which blocks the buzz from coming out the front. So with my previous plasmas, the buzz was really only audible out the back and top. With my Kuro, however, the buzz comes right out the front (as well as out the back), so it is much more noticeable and annoying to me.


2) It does show uneven pixel aging.


There are three kinds of "image persistence" with displays.


a) Burn in. This is pretty much a thing of the past and not really something you have to worry about any more. With true burn-in, you will see a "ghost" image on the screen no matter what you are watching and it never goes away no matter what!


b) Image Retention. This is where there is an image on screen, then the scene changes, but a "ghost" of the previous image remains. It looks similar to burn-in, but it eventually goes away - either on its own, or after running a "wipe" pattern for a while.


My previous Samsung plasma had this problem. If I was watching a bright scene and then the scene suddenly changed to a dark scene, there would be a "ghost" of the previous bright scene still visible for a second or two. It was very annoying.


c) Uneven Pixel Aging. This one is a bit different and sometimes people freak out and think that it is burn-in, but it is not. All plasma displays gradually dim over time. Each pixel emits its own light. You can think of a plasma display as being made up of several million individual tiny little light sources. Thus, each pixel will age and dim completely independent of all the other pixels.


So let's say that you play a video game that has a white HUD. The pixels that are displaying that HUD are going to age and dim more quickly than all the other pixels because they are showing a brighter, white image all the time whilst all the other pixels are changing and are showing darker images (not pure white) most of the time.


I've been playing a lot of Left 4 Dead 2, which has a white HUD. If I put up an all-white screen on my Kuro, I can clearly see where the white HUD pixels are a bit dimmer than all the other pixels. It's like a negative image of the HUD.


Now, this is not burn-in. The HUD does not appear on screen when I am watching a movie or TV show. If it were burn-in, I'd be seeing the HUD, regardless of the content. And it is not image retention. If I go to the pause screen on the game, the HUD does not linger for a moment or appear to stay on screen in any way. No, this is just uneven pixel aging where the white HUD is causing those few pixels to dim more quickly than the rest of the screen. Thus, this form of image persistence is only visible with basically an all white screen that can make it clear that those few pixels are now dimmer than the rest of the screen.


NOW, let's be clear that LCD displays can suffer from various forms of image persistence as well. The way that an LCD display works is that the liquid crystal present in each pixel "twists" when an electrical current is applied. As the crystal strands twist more and more tightly, they block out more and more light from the backlight, which gets them closer and closer to appearing "black". When the voltage is removed, the crystal strands "relax" and untwist, allowing light to pass through again and appear closer and closer to "white".


Over time, some pixels "forget" how to "relax" or twist all the way if they are not "flexed" on a regular basis. Ask any LCD owner who watches a lot of 4:3 content with black bars on either side of the image. Those "black bars" end up being partially visible, regardless of the content, after a long time. Basically, those black pixels "forget" how to untwist all the way, so they partially block a bit more light than the pixels in the middle of the display. A similar thing can happen in the opposite direction where a constant white image causes those pixels to "forget" how to twist down fully, so those pixels always appear a bit brighter than the rest of the screen.


So no display - other than DLP - is immune from all forms of possible image persistence. To be honest, you are more likely to see some form of image persistence with a plasma. But do be aware that you are not "in the clear" just because you buy an LCD.

 

[mark_1080p]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Teller /forum/post/18258305



There are three kinds of "image persistence" with displays.


a) Burn in.

b) Image Retention.

c) Uneven Pixel Aging.


Over time, some pixels "forget" how to "relax" or twist all the way if they are not "flexed" on a regular basis. Ask any LCD owner who watches a lot of 4:3 content with black bars on either side of the image. Those "black bars" end up being partially visible, regardless of the content, after a long time. Basically, those black pixels "forget" how to untwist all the way ... you are not "in the clear" just because you buy an LCD.

We ARE in the clear. I have Samsung LCD's, watch tons of 4:3, no effects whatsoever have ever been observed. Maybe some of the first gen LCD's were not immune, but current models are fine.

 

[Karmyna]

I have a sony 60" NX800 on order with SonyStyle in Canada.


They should deliver it 1 or 2 days after they gets it in the warehouse. Since the model is released on march 8, I expect it to be delivered next week, Yeah!


I have to give a second coat of paint and do the flooring in my ht room until then.

 

[Nimiety]

I used to think I was crazy here.... so many people asking for the best 1080p display at 40", or recommendations on an LCD at less than 20" or $200. Geez.


Well, I'm looking for big, and I'm happy to pay a fair price for good picture quality.


The ones I'm interested in hearing more about when they come out:

LG 72" scheduled to be out May-June (is there really a 84"??)

Sharp 68" scheduled to be out in May

Vizio 72" (but I'll be honest, I haven't heard great things about the rest of their line - PQ is important)


At this size and price, I don't think I would want to compromise, so backlit (not edgelit) LED with local dimming is a fair requirement. I'm in Canada, so I may have to get creative to order one or pick one up.


Are there any other options out there? Any guesses as to timelines/prices?

 

[davegow]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimiety /forum/post/18259722


...Any guesses as to timelines/prices?

There is a general expectation that Sony has yet to reveal its really significant upscale models. Aside from the LX/HX/NX series already announced, I would expect some even above those, a replacement for the legendary (but not entirely admired) Qualia. That would mean sizes at least 70 inches and maybe considerably bigger, as well as the standard list of techie goodies. Some may be sold as monitors (i.e. without tuner or audio) for use in high-end home theatres. That would help to reduce bulk and complexity.


Timing is impossible to guess. It probably depends on the results of current R&D. I Expect a number of announcements at different times. Prices will probably be a little more realistic than some of Sony's really silly past pricetags of $15k plus, but bring your checkbook regardless.

 

[dopesun]

Jonathan Teller,


Thanks for all the info. So it seems Plasmas can be the way to go for gaming. I thank you for your insight. That was a very informative crash course for me so i thank you again. So tell me, what 60 inch sets do you have ur sights set on?

 

[Jonathan Teller]

Karmyna,


I'll be interested to read your take on the Sony 60" NX800 when you receive it.


Personally, I'm just not interested in an edge-lit display. I'm even less interested in a glossy-screened display! I think it is SUCH a shame that Sony's 60" models only come in edge-lit, glossy-screened flavors. They have their HX900 series coming this summer which are fully backlit, local-dimming. But the largest model in that series is only 52" and it too has a glossy screen!


LG's top line models this year also supposedly have glossy screens. I can't express how much I hate this trend!


And, for whatever reason, Sharp never seems to offer a model with accurate colours and good video processing. Sharp is out there, basically making the LCD panels themselves for everyone else in the market. But when it comes to their own displays, they can't pony up for a video processor that doesn't make everything look like ass?


So, like I said earlier, the only set I'm really considering at this point is the Vizio XVTPRO720SV. Heaven help me if they just rebadge the LG and use a glossy screen though!


dopesun,


A good plasma can definitely be good for gaming. The perfect motion resolution, complete lack of motion blur, deeper black levels, higher contrast, better off-axis viewing and smaller amount of lag are all advantages for plasma too. Samsung's plasmas are still battling image retention problems and LG's basically have a mirror for a screen surface, so pretty much your only choice at this point is Panasonic. And I'm extremely pissed at the way they've handled their rising black level problems - more or less telling their loyal customers to go f themselves.


So, as far as plasmas go, it's pretty much down to finding one of the few remaining Pioneer Kuro IMO.


That's why I'm looking for a BIG LCD now. There are no good plasma options left! And for all the reasons I've given above, the Vizio 72" is really the only one that holds much hope for me. Maybe LG will use a matte screen and maybe Sharp will get their act together, but I'm not holding my breath. I already know that Sony has nothing to offer me, so it's pretty much Vizio or bust at this point for me.

 

[frito]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_1080p /forum/post/18258922


We ARE in the clear. I have Samsung LCD's, watch tons of 4:3, no effects whatsoever have ever been observed. Maybe some of the first gen LCD's were not immune, but current models are fine.

while this is mostly true there are occasional models that come out even in the past few years that get LCD IR.


LCD IR is never permanent however and is always reversible



as for the Pioneer owner and your idea that burn in and uneven pixel wear are separate things you are incorrect.


what you are seeing are the early stages of permanent burn in and if you continue to do that to the TV it will wear those phosphors even more and with enough time it will become apparent when your watching normal TV


CRT burn in occurs for the same reasons Plasma Burn in occurs and its caused by uneven pixel wear


CRT RPTV's are more like plasma because they wear the phosphors faster than direct view CRT's


i have a CRT RPTV with perm 4:3 pillar burn in and it took about a year of 4:3 abuse on it for the burn in to become really apparent on most material.


TIR on a plasma is different and is caused by an excess voltage build up in the pixels that were showing bright images for a period of time. this is not a big issue on modern plasmas (esp panasonics) and is easily reversible using the anti IR scroller that is built into the TV, every time i see some TIR on our plasma i run that scroller for 10 min and its gone

 

[Nimiety]

I, for one, am not worried about glossy screens. I have a Panasonic TH-42PX75U plasma a main floor family room with lots of windows and while it is certainly reflective, curtains help us lose ourselves in the moment, as it were.


The trend that annoys me the most is the overabundance of edgelit LED LCDs, when the current majority holds that backlit LEDs offer the better picture. I looked at the new Sony lines on display and was disappointed that I could easily pick out the flashlighting around the border during the olympics (white snow helped to make it noticeable, I'm sure).


The death of the Kuro and the 8500 are sad, but if the large LG or Sharp models hold true to expectations, I'll be happy.


N...

 

[gagit811]

For me I have gone through many sizes of tvs over the years. I had in old 47'' mitsubishi back in 2001. I keept that for 5 years and up graded to a 60'' sony sxrd set. a year later I moved to a smaller apartment, I needed cash bad and really didnt need such a big tv so I sold it. I had an 27'' crt toshiba for my living room tv. From there 2007 I got a deal on a 42'' westinghouse at the time was $1200 i got from best buy due to a computer error for $800. they checked then check but sold it for that price anyway. Now to today I still have my 42'' westinghouse and miss having a big highend hdtv, now I've got about 4k to spend but I think thats only gona get me a 55'' but Im not compliaing about 55''s of tv. I just can't wait for them to start rolling these tvs out already. I was tempted to buy samsungs UN55C7000 but Im trying to hold out for the 8000s for somthing else.

 

[Drumnut]

Samsung UN60C6300 looks like the beast for me......60 inches of LED niceness for around $2800!

 

[Drumnut]

Oh yeah....due out in May!

 

[RayChuang]

There's one not-to-great thing about a 60-plus inch LCD panel--you can actually start seeing the individual pixels. You want to seat at least nine to ten feet back for such a big panel.