[AnonConcerned]

The war by the MPAA and RIAA to stamp out bootleg MP3 music and now bootleg movies being downloaded over the Internet is very much like the governments -war on drugs-. Its not going to have any effect. 4 million people downloaded the program to trade bootleg movies and music THIS WEEK ALONE


These new breedsof software cannot be stopped, its distributed. No server or person to sue. Indeed there are more MP3 music titles available today then at any point ever in history, so much for the estimated 400 million dollars spent by the RIAA trying to kill off MP3's on the internet. No Law, or technology will stop these new distributed software packages. As bandwidths get bigger, more and more will be traded. With Starwars out and available everywhere 1 full week before its release in theaters you have to wonder how long before every movie is on the internet for free download. Quality will get much better as bandwidth increases.. Studios have real reasons to fear the future of the cash cow they now control.

CNN bootleg Starwars story


Even TV program distributors and TV advertisers are fearful of the future. The newest ReplayTV box has created a HUGE legal fight. TV program producers have stated that the commercials pay for the programs and because of that removing commercials automatically infringes on the TV programs rights, they sued. TV program distributors are also panicked about the future as well. They are suing ReplayTV to stop the 4000 from being sold. However just like the RIAA winning the suit over napster a TV tuner card for $30 in a PC with the right software will do exactly the same thing and MORE as a ReplyTV 4000. So the millions being wasted now on this suit is wasted money. The new software will suddenly fill with TV shows with all the commercials removed.

CNN ReplayTV story


Crazy law and paranoid studios are fighting to keep a cash cow business alive in the face of certain collapse in profits long term.


D-Studio D-VHS is simply a desperate attempt from studios to keep control of the movies, you can't stick a D-VHS tape into a computer like you can a DVD. They figure it’s a more secure format. It has little to do with quality and EVERYTHING to do with paranoia. How long before D-Theater will be a cracked format and you see perfect HD available from the newest pirate software ?? A year or 2 ?.


This is the war on drugs all over again. Even after 30 years the war on drugs has had ZERO effect. This new war on bootleg movies and music is sure to cost all of us a lot as the lawyers fees will get added to movie ticket prices and DVD prices. Not to mention the "new and improved" hardware that we will have to buy to play the newest encryption method used to fight the -war on entertainment-.


The war over music and movies on the Internet is already lost. Any money spent on this endeavor is futile. A new business model is needed as these industries will no longer be the cash cow there have been in the past.


(edited to remove link - Larry Davis)

(edited to remove software titles related to link - anonConcerned)


Larry your point is well taken, I agree..

 

[Larry Davis]

All,


Please do not post any links to software that facillitates copyright infringment, or any links to bootlegs or warez sites. Do not challenge my authority. Doing so violates the rules you agreed to when you became a member. If any member wants to discuss this with me, do so via private message only, thanks.

 

[AnonConcerned]

Point well taken, Larry.


I removed references to the software..


Its too bad that even the mention of a link to the #1 software download link on the net has to be removed. And one owned by a HUGE company.


I understand the reasoning behind removing the link, however the site i pointed to was a HUGE download site that has nothing to do with copyright infringment.


Again, the public will/is aware of the use of such programs. Simply removing a link to keep people from finding the software make my point of paranoia more clear.


Indeed my freedom of speech was censored on this site because of the insanity involved in this persuit of this war.


This is crazy.....And fully out of control...


However I fully agree, my use of the site pointer was incorrect because of how it exposes AVScience to the legal masses. Im sorry.

 

[Larry Davis]

Also please bear in mind that this site should not be known as one that discusses how to obtain bootlegs, or considers bootlegs to be fine. I personally couldn't care less if someone wants to download a bootleg, but promoting bootlegs in this forum gives the forum a bad reputation. It would be nice if someday someone from a studio or some other person in the industry could answer our questions and concerns. That could never happen if this forum was perceived as being bootleg friendly. That is why I don't allow a friendly discussion of bootlegs, besides forbidding bootleg urls. Actually, I saw Spiderman on Monday. On my way to the theater, I saw a guy standing on a street corner selling Spiderman DVD's. Of course they were bootlegs. I decided to wait for the real release, SuperBit or non.

 

[AnonConcerned]

I may have been unclear in my post.

I am NOT in any way promoting bootlegs


I -AM- pointing out however that the war on internet bootlegs is almost doomed to failure. Money spent on this is money wasted. This is my point.


Its TRULY unfortunate for its the artists who will loose money.


It may be that we have seen the beginning of the end for big budget movies ?. If they are not profitable who will make them ?


This is a sad state of affairs, however I see no way to win this war.

 

[Larry Davis]

AnonConcerned,


I understand that you had good intentions.

 

[hmurchison]

Many of us Home Theater Fans are "Collectors" we like having the attention to detail and special packaging. We spend alot of our disposable income on DVD and CD purchases. However the issues that Hollywood and more so the Music Industry face is one of how to add value in their products as viewed by the consumer. I am pretty pleased with the rollout of DVD and it's being rewarded by recordbreaking DVD sales. The Music Industry however has MANY issues to deal with. They simply refuse to listen to the #1 complaint that CD's cost too much. They must also stop being so naive...just because the 90's saw huge CD sales does not mean that the 2000's will offer the same. Each Generation becomes more Tech savvy and you must do more to elicit their business. The RIAA needs to stop whining....develop a sensible business plan and stop alienating their customers. Then and only then will we see mutual respect.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Where were you when I was trying back when to convince people that bootlegging is real and widespread? Anyway, I agree that its going to be a tough issue. And the answer obviously is not, "Well if you can't get anyone to pay for it, just give it away or sell it for a quarter of what you sell it for now." That's not a viable business model.


Some people claim that it just means that end of large music making enterprises, and that only small scale 'home brew' music enterprises will survive. I don't begin to see that as viable either. Though we all like to think that the cream will automatically rise to the top, you actually do have to advertise and push your product or it will get lost in the mix. In a world of thousands of small home brew content providers, it will be that much easier to get lost in the noise.

Quote:

how to add value in their products as viewed by the consumer

In terms of adding value, what do you suggest? Its one thing to say that they should do something, but if you can't come up with a viable business model build on added value, then probably they can't either. I can't really think of anything that would work. Its not like software where you can upgrade for less or get support if you register your purchase.


And in order to add value, won't they need to know who you are and track what you've bought so that they can tell you from those folks who've not purchased from them. All of the added value stuff from the software world and other worlds comes from their knowing that you are an ongoing customer. But so many people would take that as a big brother sort of move. So how do they tell who their good customers are (the ones who deserve to get something back), and will people allow that, and how much would the IT infrastructure to track customers for such small per-unit products cost?


There's just no simple answer really. For software it might be a little easier than for music/movies, but its still difficult and just telling them that they are stupid won't help them come up with a better way to do it.


If the answer is, put it all online, without very strong copy protection controls, of the sort most of you wouldn't accept, they would just be completing the job that Napster couldn't do, i.e. make the entire catalogue available from a known place at a high speed, which could then just be copied all over the place without paying for it.

 

[bitkahuna]

Why do you think CDs are too expensive? You think they don't represent good value? Compared to what? They're about twice the price as seeing a movie. But people go see movies at the movie theater because of the big screen and sound and it's a social experience as well and that it's way better than watching some cheesy VCD version. But unfortunately CDs on the other hand can be copied with perfect reproduction quality for a dollar and they are being copied by millions of people on PCs. So I would say that pre-recorded music CDs only appear to be bad value because people can rip them off so easily and inexpensively. I think a surcharge should be placed on blank CD-Rs for a start.


Movies are in a different situation because right now most people don't have DVD recorders and even those that do can't copy dual layer DVDs, but if they could, no doubt there would be rampant piracy there too.


So what's the answer? I agree with the original post that legal action won't do much good, so I believe signed encryption will eventually be the answer. The consumer will get a movie with their credentials encrypted in it so it they let it get cloned and given away, they'll be caught because their digital finger prints will be all over it. Now you can say that the movie could be re-digitized from analog forms, but as TVs begin to process digital feeds ONLY (we're a long way from that), it will become harder to rip off media.


The media industry probably realizes that eliminating piracy is impossible, but making it less convenient is where they should focus.


What amazes me is how casually even 'fine upstanding' people just ripoff music. They should be ashamed.

 

[Rachael Bellomy]

Quote:

Originally posted by hmurchison "... They simply refuse to listen to the #1 complaint that CD's cost too much...(amen!)... The RIAA needs to stop whining....develop a sensible business plan and stop alienating their customers. Then and only then will we see mutual respect.

Thing is that the movie companies are the music industry too. The "big five" is who we're talking about here. They do seem clueless as how to elvolve the music biz! Best wishes!

 

[Dean Roddey]

I don't think that they are alone at being clueless. You come up with a possible solution and bet an industry on it! You lose and you'll go down in infamy just as bad or worse than going down slowly by attrition, and at least you get to bail out before the end. We shouldn't just sit on the sidelines and thow stones if we can't come up with something that would be a clear winner ourselves.

 

[joekun]

Quote:

I don't think cd's or dvd's are expensive. I mean if a film is good i pay ANYTHING. Same with music.

I agree with the last part of that, I pay $30 for a lot of the CDs that I buy (Japanese imports), but I don't buy many CDs. The big difference between the two is that when I buy a DVD I usually either like or don't like the whole thing, but with a CD I usually only like 9-12 minutes of it at most Given that they are almost the same price (I'm talking strictly R1 DVDs vs R1 CDs here) I find CDs to be a ripoff! If they brought them down to around $7, or offered single-song-downloads at reasonable prices (say less than $1 per song) I would buy a lot more music, but they haven't so I don't. That's okay because it helps me buy more DVDs

 

[Mister E Man]

Should I be ashamed that Mariah Carey might not be able to afford FIVE seperate homes? Should I feel sorry for N'Sync because they might have to wear the same clothes twice? Or that Dr. Dre might not be able to keep his classic-car collection? Sorry, but I won't be losing any sleep over it.


The only people that are directly affected by any of this are the major labels and their artists. I shall feel no shame in having any detrimental effect on their bank rolls.

 

[Mister E Man]

When I was growing up, my friends and I used to dub mix tapes for one another. According to the RIAA, we were 'stealing', is that correct? I don't hear anyone suggesting surcharges applied to blank audio or VHS cassettes; and these have been available for over 20 years.


P2P has introduced me to so much great music that I would never have taken the chance of making blind-purchases.

 

[joekun]

I do not consider copying songs to audio tapes stealing (though I don't do it, mostly because I don't use them) because you ARE paying royalty fees when you buy the blank tape. If artists are payed royalties for the sale of blank tapes, then using those tapes to make copies of artists songs for which they are being compensated can not be stealing. This is true for the U.S., as I believe this is a U.S. law, and may or may not be applicable to blank cassettes bought in other countries.

 

[hmurchison]

Quote:

Where were you when I was trying back when to convince people that bootlegging is real and widespread? Anyway, I agree that its going to be a tough issue. And the answer obviously is not

The Music Industry(MI) admits that 19 out of 20 acts fail. Therefore the large and successful acts must subsidize these failed artists. That's not fair to these Artists. Bootlegging happens but it's basically free Promotion. Napster is never credited for having a casual effect on CD Sales. Sure people employed a "try before you buy" methodology but many purchased CD's from Artists that normally wouldn't be given the appropriate Radio Play or Marketing.


Notice how CD sales dived after the death of Napster?



Quote:

In terms of adding value, what do you suggest? Its one thing to say that they should do something, but if you can't come up with a viable business model build on added value

No one can guarantee a "Viable Business Model" that's purely subjective. The Movie industry fought Tape Rentals( an eventual Cash Cow) the Music Industry fought Radio Play(and Promotion Bonanza) so I think it's evident that they have extreme Myopia when it comes to viewing the potential of new forms of Distribution and Marketing. As for value.... with Musicmatch(my MP3 player of choice) I can Tag my Songs...rate them from "Fair" to "Excellent", denote the "Mood" and Genre and then automatically Queue up Dynamic Playlists that suit a particular Genre ...mood or preference of mine. This capability could be easily extended to CD's and their players. Why haven't CD's utilized more Multimedia? Should I be able to view printable song Lyrics, Videos, Bios and anything else to add value. After all these things have already been created in many cases. It's trivial to add them(fans might prefer them to boring filler tracks). The issue at hand here is the Brain Drain of the Music Industry....rather than evolve their product they let some hacks do it for them and now notthing will be the same.


I find it strange that the MI was so quick to add Copy Protection to CD's. Yet seem loathe to offer any value added features. If they had taken that anticopy effort and placed it into evolving the CD...we probably wouldn't be discussing this piracy.


Quote:

Why do you think CDs are too expensive? You think they don't represent good value? Compared to what? They're about twice the price as seeing a movie. But people go see movies at the movie theater because of the big screen and sound and it's a social experience as well and that it's way better than watching some cheesy VCD version

I'm in the process of setting up a Home Studio. I read almost all the Musician Magazines. The phenomenom that is the Home Studio Revolution has already happened. Big Name acts do all their tracking at home in Pro Tools and on myriad of other recording devices. Top Recording Studios now mainly assist in Mixing and Mastering these tracks. Therefore much of the expense of creating a "Record" has been ameliorated by these Home Studios...yet the price of CD's has risen. Even you can purchase CD's in lot's of 5000 and have the pressed costs AND printing of Jewel Case inserts for $1.19 per disc http://www.discmakers.com/music/products/cd100.html


MI insiders will complain that there are associated costs of marketing, distribution and other costs(Videos, A&R) but many of these are Artist Recoupables(meaning these are taken out of the Artists "cut" of the profit. I think the fact remains that Good music is worth it but bad music simply isn'. It's a subjective thing of course. I happen to listen to alot of different musical genres making it hard for me.



Quote:

So I would say that pre-recorded music CDs only appear to be bad value because people can rip them off so easily and inexpensively. I think a surcharge should be placed on blank CD-Rs for a start.

Why would they want to Rip the Artists off....it's money. If CD's where cheaper most people wouldn't go through the hassle of dealing with shoddy mp3's. BTW there already exists a royalty on Blank Media. Did you know that the MI has received Royalties on even the Cassette tape(Blank).

Quote:

The media industry probably realizes that eliminating piracy is impossible, but making it less convenient is where they should focus.

And they risk alienating the very consumers that keep them in business. Hackers or Crackers are going to get your product. Their job is to keep the masses honest. Poor Public Relation measures like Draconian Encryption will only serve to generate more animosity from fans.
Quote:

I don't think that they are alone at being clueless. You come up with a possible solution and bet an industry on it! You lose and you'll go down in infamy just as bad or worse than going down slowly by attrition, and at least you get to bail out before the end. We shouldn't just sit on the sidelines and thow stones if we can't come up with something that would be a clear winner ourselves.

Our History is littered with Technologies and Companies that have fallen by the wayside as their products or services have become obsolete. The Big Five are fighting to keep their Oligopolies alive. They provide Artists Marketing and Distribution. In exchange they retain the rights to the songs and the artist. Basically it's Sell Your Soul and hope you make it big, which, alas doesn't happen often. The Internet is one big Distribution Network. Marketing is important but when you look at what's possible ...it's obvious that the Big Five is afraid of not just Piracy but of their very existence. They are an old relic. Artist will soon realize that they can keep more of their money and retain the rights to their songs with minimal damage from not being on a Major Label.



Quote:

Hm. You should be ashamed of stealing, that's the point. Lots of people make disgusting amounts of money, that doesn't give you the right to steal their product JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN.

I don't mind if they make disgusting amounts of money. This is America and we are a Capitalistic Society. However, I agree with Joekun...many CD's have one or two good songs...the rest is fluff. Artist are raked over the coals and their talents and rights usurped by these Distributors who care nothing for the Art inasmuch as it will bring them Windfall Profits. I support every artist I download and listen to regulary. Even DVD's have a descending price scale. The longer it has been on the market the cheaper it becomes. Constrast that to CD's collecting dust in the bin because the album was unpopular and still retails for 16.99.




In Summary. Change must happen.


Artist need Liberation and that liberation will only come with them controlling their own destiny. The Big Five only represent a non majority of ALL music yet they have the $$$$$$ to woo luddites like Fritz Hollings into enacting horrible legislation that will destroy our Computer Industry in lieu of the Music Industry. I am for supporting the artists...if that means going to their concerts and purchasing other forms of merchandise. However there is a fierce battle going on for the consumer dollar and with the emergence and domination of DVD and Computers...someone is going to get pushed aside. Darwinism at it's best...."only the strong survive" . Thanks

 

[Dean Roddey]

Some of that is really simplistic. We've been through this before. You think that all these artists are good business people? You think that if every artist was a standalone business unit, and had to do all of his own legal, distribution, advertisement, etc... him/herself that he/she wouldn't just turn around and hire a firm much like what exists right now to do all those things? They don't have the time and energy to do all that stuff and still make good music, so they'll hire someone to do it for them, and that someone will still be a layer between you and the artist and will take their cut just like they do now, because as much as you'd like it to be otherwise, they have as much to do with whether a particular artist succeeds as does the artist's talent. We live in a world of noise and if you don't have a way to get your song above the noise, few people are going to hear it. There are exceptions of course, but they are exceptions for a reason.


In the same way that 'bean counters' don't understand the music they sell, most artists don't understand the business that sells what they make. Its a two way street. You can argue that there's too much money on one side of the road, and I do believe that self production and whatnot will do a lot to solve that, because artists can come in with a product that they own and then negotiate. But if you think that the big advertisers and distributors and legal departments will go away, I don't think it'll happen.

 

[mrmurdstone]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with artists trying to protect their intellectual property from freeloaders who want to get something for nothing.


That being said, I do have a big problem with the large entertainment conglomerates ownership of artistic content as opposed to those who create it. Yes, it does take promotional front money to market art to a mass audience. However, this should always be an investment/return situation that has clear limits and an end (i.e.- the artist and the promoter should agree on a specific return % up to a clear $$ amont which should be related to the amount the promoter initially invests in the artist.) These contracts of adhesion in which artistic content is "owned" by a middleman who "pimps" the creative element is obscene. I mean the record labels own the rights to "Beatles" songs 30 years after their creation. Don't you think the artists or their families have more right to this artistic content?


Also, a point that everyone has failed to mention is that the entertainment industries attempt to defeat pirating threatens our country's own technological preeminence in the world marketplace. For example, by spending the ridiculous amounts of time quibbling over HDTV protection schemes, the entertainment industry has effectively cost the U.S. it's golden opportunity to be the world leader in HDTV technology. Europe and Aisa are leapfrogging us in HDTV hardware and broadcast rollout by virtue of our own inaction. The DVI-Firewire "solutions" are so mind-numbingly moronic (hey, let's downgrade the HDTV signal coming into display units!) that I still shake my head when I hear about it.


Furthermore the introduction of the egregiously self-serving Digital Millennium Copyright Act and the proposed "security measures" that the entertainment industry wants built into all electronic hardware capable of reproducing or storing media will almost single-handedly stop technological innovation by U.S. companies. Does anyone really believe that the rest of the world will agree to harware protection methods that the U.S. unilaterally imposes on its own citizens. That's a great way to get people to buy American.


Entertainment conglomerates that cling to the old business models are the proverbial dinosaurs that don't know the world has changed irrevocably and will never be the same. Either they adapt to the new environment or they will perish.

 

[hmurchison]

mrmurdstone- I support your statements %100. That idiot Fritz Hollings doesn't even realize the damage his bill will do to our Tech Sector. Well I guess it doesn't matter to him as long as the dollars are flowing into his cofffers. Incidentally I have heard that the Media Congloms are actually trying to get Copyright extended so that they own the titles even longer. Their motives are clear....package it sell it and make money ...the hell with the artist.

 

[Dean Roddey]

And you think that once the conglomerates are out of the way that the artists (who will then own the copyright) are going to be any less interested in seeing their investment protected for as long as possible? How many businesses voluntarily shorten the lifespan of their control over something that they own? You act like the artists are all doing it just for fun, while they work at Burger King to pay the bills. Its a job for them just like my job is a job to me, despite the fact that I like doing it a lot and its a very creative act.


Its very easy to have these Utopian thoughts that artists are all interested in doing the starving artist thing, and its just those big conglomerates that put all the commerce into entertainment. I hardly think that's the case, and I don't think it would be a bit different if your proposed world comes to be. Those artists would just turn right around and create something very much like the RIAA to protect their interests as a group.