AVS Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,902 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
EE...Edge Enhancement...Ringing...

This TPM EE thing has really been bothering me...why is it many in this forum are freakin' about it, and I'm not?

After all I've got a high end projection system on one of the best 80" screens made (using KBK's paint) I should be seeing as much of it as the best systems out there!

Last night I decided to spend the whole night looking at EE...

I started with some of my worst offenders, the Cell, Akira, and Sound of Music...yep it still looks the same as ever.

Then I put in the new MGM transfer of RoboCop, most consider this a very good transfer, miles ahead of even the Criterion transfer...SURPRISE, it has EE also! It's most noticeable in the high contrast shots, and can be seen from my normal viewing distance of 12". Then there's the EE that can "almost" be made out, and to see it you must leave your seat and get within about 5' of the screen, yes Robo has that too.

However, there's a good 70 to 80% of this movie that has no ringing at all.

I next put in TPM, again, and much like RoboCop the most noticeable ringing is in the high contrast shots, and TPM has more of these high contrast shots than Robo, next was the "get out of my seat and check at 5', yes it's there also, but at normal 12' viewing distance you have to strain hard to see it...even then it's just not noticable, so for me not worth worrying about.

Lastly theres the 60 to 70% that has no EE at all.


I have now realized there are two ways to view a movie.

The first type viewer looks at Texture, Detail, Color, Blacks, and Shadow detail, this type viewer is only going to notice EE in the higher contrast shots, because they are looking at many others things first. These are probably movie lovers first.

The second type viewer is looking primarily at line structure.

They're first concern is line structure, which will lead your eye right to EE, the rest of the picture's composition is secondary...this may be one of two types: The reviewer, who has to notice this...and the person who's into technology and it's use, not particularly a movie lover.

It seems many reviewers are teaching others to be edge watchers...it's not unlike watching a football game, many just watch the person with the ball (edge watcher) Others watch: Line play, linebacker movement, receiver routes, but yet still know where the football is. (akin to a movie watcher)


This would explain why I see very little EE other than in high contrast shots, I'm the first type of watcher...that and my system is just not aggravating the ringing as much as other systems may.


What do you guys think???
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
912 Posts
I agree with your opinion.


I have a midrange rig with an RPTV, doubler, etc. and I have just now started to realize that the blocky effect that occurs in high contrast shots is EE! I realized it once and for all in Star Wars: Episode I.


EE sucks, that's not debatable. The question is: How can we get past EE and into a more movie-oriented phase of watching DVDs?


I choose to focus on the better transfers and rely heavily on SuperBit DVDs (I know, that's a new trend).


The bottom line is that I don't allow myself to lose interest in a DVD just because of poor line structure, etc.


OUT
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,785 Posts
KennyG

I think you are on the right track with your comments but I think most of us here who would put the effort to get a good HT set up want the best possible image quality . Even though EE may be visible on high contrast scenes I'm covinced it robs the DVD of detail throughout. I don't believe that hating EE and loving a good film are mutually exclusive instead I think they go hand in hand to give the best experience.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
943 Posts
Quote:
I have now realized there are two ways to view a movie...
I disagree--there are many ways to view a movie. :) What you've pointed out relate to the only a few technical aspects of a movie's presentation in a home environment. I think it unfair to categorize those who are more sensitive to EE as someone more into the technology than the emotion of the movie (as in your use of "movie lovers").


IMHO, I think the real enlightening answers are to these two questions:


1. Can poor technical presentation of a movie reduce the perceived content quality or enjoyment of the movie's emotional content?


2. Can a great technical presentation of a movie improve the perceived content quality or enjoyment of the movie's emotional content?


My answers are yes on the first, and perhaps on the second. My point is that a great technical presentation of a movie cannot hurt it's content, while a poor technical presentation (including EE) serve to lessen the enjoyment of any movie.


For me, it's very similar to music. I will listen to music I enjoy regardless of it's technical merit (as long as it's not degenerated beyond reproach). But I won't listen to Britney regardless of technical merit because I'm simply not "into" her music. I'm enjoying the Beautiful Garbage CD as I write this! :D


I'll also have to disagree about 60-70% of TPM not having EE. If one knows what to look for, EE's degenerative effects can be seen throughout the DVD presentation. Granted, there aren't many of us who are that picky, and I'm generally in the middle in this regard. But just put in The Pledge or Pitch Black DVD's immediately after a watching TPM on DVD, and you see why some of us think the reviewers who are calling the DVD video transfer of TPM "reference quality" are clearly misguided. Even the Superbits TFE with evident EE in some scenes beats TPM overall.


I love the Star Wars franchise. TPM may not be a match for the original trilogy, but I expected more from this delayed DVD release. Add to that the hype surrounding the THX brand name, and Lucas' supposed direct involvment, well, there you have it.


In summary, it's not a "movie lovers" versus "techie" thing. As a movie lover, I will continue to demand nothing less than the best presentation of any movie.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
733 Posts
I think that equipment can aggravate EE - that's not saying EE isn't there to start with, but some DVD players for example will introduce ringing of their own. There was a similar discussion about LOA and EE awhile back. Those with Radeon based HTPCs were not seeing as much EE as others.


I also think some sit a couple of feet away from the screen and take great pleasure in crucifying a transfer - what ever floats your boat! Try www.dvdfile.com for a review of TPM that I think is right on the money. This guy is using a high end front projection system with an eight foot wide screen.


The best thing about all of this was that I wasn't expecting much from TPM transfer and got a very pleasant surprise. Thanks for lowering my expectations.


Cheers,


Grant
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,124 Posts
KennyG:


Lets see: you view your image from a distance of approximately 2 times the width of your screen.


I view my image from a distance of approximately 1.2 times the width of a 2.40:1 image on the screen.


Assuming you are using constant width, your image is approximately 34" tall for a 2.35:1 AR DVD.


My image is 60" tall, regardless of the AR.


That means I am viewing an image almost twice as high and wide as the image you are viewing, from just slightly farther away.


Maybe you will begin to understand why EE bugs some of us more than others.


And before anyone questions my choice of seating location, I can watch Titanic and many other DVD's and they compare reasonably well to 35mm on the same screen viewed from the same distance.


Vern Dias
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,785 Posts
I see Verns side and agree . I sit 9' from a screen that is about 9' wide as my sweet spot to get immersed in the presentation. With high quality DVD or HD this is just the greatest as far as I'm concerned. This is the way to really enjoy the fact that one has a large display . The down side is that this distance will also allow one to seperate the men from the boys as far as transfer quality is concerned. If you sit two or three screen widths back many DVDs which would looked flawed to me might be just fine at that distance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
943 Posts
Quote:
I think that equipment can aggravate EE...
We all agree on this!

Quote:
I also think some sit a couple of feet away from the screen and take great pleasure in crucifying a transfer...
FYI, I sit 14' away from a 7' wide 16x9 screen (between 3 and 4 times screen height, and the EE is painfully evident in TPM.


The quality of the equipment is only half the equation, the reviewer is the other half. The DVDFile review seems balanced, especially since they only rated the video four out of five (80% there). There are many other reviews that may or may not point out the EE, and then still rate the video as reference quality, which it is not.


Downplaying this problem with EE on DVD transfers is like downplaying non-anamorphic DVD transfers. If the home video cognoscenti chooses to downplay or ignore this problem, it will never be fixed. Again, the TPM DVD has been touted to be "reference quality," and advertised as such when the truth is that it clearly hasn't turned out that way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,580 Posts
Some people don't mind EE. They see it, but it doesn't bother them. That's a fact. Other people probably can't describe what they are seeing. They don't know the technical term. Call EE "halos" and I bet even people with TV sets would say "yeah I hate that". Everyone knows a halo when they see them and you can see plenty of 'em on the TPM DVD.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
943 Posts
Quote:
Some people don't mind EE. They see it, but it doesn't bother them.
Sure. And many don't mind watching pan and scan either. Many enjoy watching VHS, cable, et al.


Just like letterboxing, anamorphic transfers, DIVX, etc., I really do think the misuse of EE is too important for us as a niche group to ignore. More importantly, the duping of the general public that it's actually "reference quality." Like CD sound is perfect, bits is bits, et al. :( Fortunately, many here know better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,902 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Grant, I just went to the DVDfile link you provided...for my taste this guy hit it right on the head, this is exactly how I see this transfer!

For me it's simple, to see alot of this ringing you have to be staring at line structure...or be sitting very close to the screen as Vern is.

I don't think the term "sensitive to EE" is correct, it's more a function of how hard your trying to see it.

It's not that we all can't see it, we can, and if your using front projection you'd have to have a poorly setup pj not to see it.

Only in the high contrast areas are my eyes actually drawn to it, and I'm going to keep it that way...if I have to work to see it by staring at line structure...I can't let myself get caught in that trap.

I do wish they'd have turned it down a notch or two in the high contrast areas, but I can't let it spoil the fun of this silly movie.

Overall I'd say I'm seeing exactly what the reviewer at DVDfile is seeing...that's a relief!!!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,752 Posts
Kenny:


Let's start the Monday festivities at my place. I want to show you a little of Phantom Menace on the RP91. There is a feature of the RP91 that has an interesting effect on the "ringing" in the transfer. I'll be curious as to your thoughts on this disc after I tweak it a little.


BTW, I'm cool with either Depp's new film or The Last Castle. Or we can do Swordfish at my place or your's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,785 Posts
I haven't even seen TPM DVD yet but I did see it in the theater . It was such a disappointment to me, relative to my expectations from the first three, that I haven't gone out to buy it. I have however seen other DVDs that have been trashed by EE .

One of the first to come to mind is Apollo 13. Just look at the crowd scene on the bleachers before liftoff. This is not very high contrast so the halos themselves aren't very evident but the people in the crowd look as if they all have a layer that terribly reduces their resolution. In Cast Away there is a scene at christmas dinner where the camera is positioned back to see all the family and the feast. Look at the appearence of this. I believe that the look, as if the whole image has had clear jelly poured over it ,is the effect of the added EE. It robs the image of the fine detail that DVD is capable of for some other goal. This goal may be sharper looking edges on small displays which I suspect is the true reason for EE. What I'm getting at is that it is't just the halos (but lord knows this is bad enough) but the other effects that EE does to the overall presentation .
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,649 Posts
Thanks Art! You took the words right out of my mouth. The halos that are evident with EE are not as bad as what it does to any part of the image with lots of detail in it. This looks far worse to me. It's difficult to describe however. Your "jelly" description is good but maybe there's a better way to describe it. (don't know what that is yet...)


Cary
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,580 Posts
Rice Rocket,


I didn't say the issue of EE should be ignored. I didn't even remotely hint at that. I simply stated that some people don't mind EE and that's a fact. Some people say the EE on the TPM DVD is "from Hell". Others say it is no big deal and not even distracting. My post didn't mention my opinion of EE.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
943 Posts
Larry: Roger that! Notice I didn't say whether you said that the issue of EE should be ignored. :p My point was to rally everyone here to not simply ignore it. So what is your take on it, dare I ask? :D


Art has described one other effect of EE very well--kudos Art! What he describes I tend to call the VHS-look.


IMHO, it doesn't bother me as much when a DVD has a soft picture because the source element is old/lacks resolution. I'd rather that, since that's the "look" of the movie, rather than the ringing and the gauzed/hazey-look that excessive EE adds to the picture. This is strictly a medium-related anomaly; in other words, this doesn't naturally occur when shooting on film. It is added in post-processing, often for valid reasons when transferring to a lower resolution medium. But it is also often misused, and until we "educate" the studios, it will continue to happen.


I do a lot of Photoshop post-processing. It is an art to make sure the photo appears as sharp as possible given the output medium, but not oversharpened. But most beginners tend towards oversharpening because of ignorance, just like all the people who have their TV's "sharpness" control turned up all the way! Hey--sharper is better, right? :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,902 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Vern, the "line structure" of an image that I refer to is simply all the lines that make up the picture, anytime we see EE it's along a line of some sort, be it the outline of a body or face, the lines that make up a building or ship, or the lines that make up a window frame, they're all lines, and this is where EE is seen.

Some EE is very obvious, as we all know, and our eyes are drawn to it...but, other EE is harder to see and must be looked for by looking directly at lines that are less contrasting than the easy to see stuff...as in say, a medium gray suit against a medium brown background...hard to see EE unless you are hunting it by staring at the line where the gray and brown come together.


Art, that "jelly" analogy is a good one...mired in goop :)


Robert call me as you get out of your appointment, we'll meet at your house...I want to end at mine.

I have the feeling your going to show me some heavy EE, then adjust some of the RP91's setting and get rid of much of it...am I correct? That's another point to be made...isn't alot of this Hardware/ Setting specific...and if so do digital projectors aggravate this problem to a larger extent? All factors in the equation
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,027 Posts
Kenny,


In real life there are no black lines around objects. Where two sharp-edges overlap, there is just "this" and "that", not "the black line between them." You don't see this on film either.


It's this artifical halo or line that separates two objects which is precisely what makes EE so annoying. Even if the effect is subtle, it's something that shouldn't be there. No writer or director wrote those halos into the script. No DP photographed them. You don't see them when you watch the movie in the theater. They are only there when they have been unnecessarily added.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,124 Posts
Ah.... OK then.


No, I don't look at the lines. As Jim says, there are no lines around objects on film.


However, the transition between objects are one of the things a professional projectionist looks at when adjusting the focus on an image in a movie theater. In a really good movie theater with a large screen, short throw distance, and top-notch lenses, one then adjusts the focus to maximize the sharpness of the film grain structure.


Vern
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top