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Thoughts on the 4000

664 Views 15 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  JustBen
(What follows is somethig I posted on usenet, and sent to [email protected] as well -- I've edited it slightly. I received very little feedback, and thought this would be a place to fix that!)


I own two Replays at the moment, and am trying to decide whether to buy a new 4000 series box. Perhaps folks could help me understand some of the tradeoffs.


1. Price/performance. The 160 hour unit I'd probably buy is $1499, less a $100 discount available over the phone. Adjusted for incredibly price/performance gains in disk drives, this is a lot higher cost than my original 2002 a few years ago. Is there something more "open" coming down the pike? Cheaper, better, faster?


2. Fixing the major annoyances of the previous generation. My number one gripe with my two replays is the racket they make. My bedroom unit turns itself on at random times for a few seconds -- you hear the unit spin up the disk, access it a few times, and then go back to sleep. I also live in California, so the standby power consumption (even with no disk activity, the unit is warm) is also a bother. Does the 4000 series do this more intelligently?


3. Incomplete features. Why doesn't the unit have a Dolby Digital input? My digital cable box happily pumps out AC-3 for the movie channels, and I'd love to be able to preserve this good audio on my recorded programs. The only explanation I've heard for this is a reach -- potential future programming going over the broadband connection that might be AC-3 encoded.


4. Not future-proofed. Folks spending this kind of money for time-shifting are also probably starting to play with HDTV. It'd be nice to understand SonicBlue's roadmap for covering this. Given the satellite folks are ramping HD up really quickly, I'd expect Replay's target market to be FUDed (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) over whether the 4000 is a good 1-2 year investment. Perhaps they're just victims of the same fear everyone has: copy protection schemes invalidating existing users' hardware investments.


5. Unhappy middle ground. I was picking up hints that the next generation Replay was going to be more of a house server, which would have been a great concept. The idea here is that you'd have a box in a central closet that had broadband and TV connections. You'd invest a bit of money in this server, but could then hook up inexpensive (AND QUIET!) set top boxes anywhere in the house -- all they'd need is an Ethernet link (and perhaps an antenna hookup). The house server would then pump MPEG streams to multiple boxes simultaneously. The 4000 kind of gets there: you can watch programs from another 4000, but where's the diskless, inexpensive model? And what's the roadmap for scalable house servers? How many streams can a 4000 handle?

What if the disks were striped (doubling the bandwidth)?


6. Curious design choices. Why is the only 480p output on a VGA connector? I don't know of any set that has more than one VGA connector (and most of the new HDTV sets have none). And most of these boxes will be integrated into AV receivers, which can switch component video -- but not RGB; not even the lunatic fringe receivers do VGA -- http://www.lexicon.com/MC12/index.html ). It seems as though the engineers didn't correctly guess what a high-end home theatre setup would look like in 2001. And given that all the inputs to the 4000 are interlaced, what's the output look like? Do they do intelligent line doubling like the iScan? ( http://www.dvdo.com/dvdo/iscanv2.asp )


Note: there are some aftermarket solutions to convert VGA to component:

http://www.digitalconnection.com/HomeTheater/9a60.htm

http://www.copperbox.com/


They're $100-$200 extra (with yet another bloody power transformer). This seems silly.


Regards,
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Forums are very useful, as you're about to find out :) We can answer most/all of your questions.
Quote:
1. Price/performance. The 160 hour unit I'd probably buy is $1499, less a $100 discount available over the phone. Adjusted for incredibly price/performance gains in disk drives, this is a lot higher cost than my original 2002 a few years ago. Is there something more "open" coming down the pike? Cheaper, better, faster?
I'd actually say that pricewise Replay hasn't changed THAT much... I mean the 4040 has 40 hours of recording time for $700, isn't that a BETTER deal than the original ReplayTVs? It certainly isn't far off.
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2. Fixing the major annoyances of the previous generation. My number one gripe with my two replays is the racket they make.
They're hard drives. They make noise. You certainly can add your own brand of noise filtration by using a hushbox, relocating the units, or maybe some noise-killing foam (assuming you account for adequate ventilation). But keep in mind, these are essentially computers, and my computers are pretty loud.
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My bedroom unit turns itself on at random times for a few seconds -- you hear the unit spin up the disk, access it a few times, and then go back to sleep.
This is normal behavior. It checks at :47 every hour to see if it needs to record at the next hour.
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I also live in California, so the standby power consumption (even with no disk activity, the unit is warm) is also a bother. Does the 4000 series do this more intelligently?
I've heard that these units are fairly power efficient. Just because they're WARM doesn't mean they're costing you tons of money!
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Why doesn't the unit have a Dolby Digital input? My digital cable box happily pumps out AC-3 for the movie channels, and I'd love to be able to preserve this good audio on my recorded programs. The only explanation I've heard for this is a reach -- potential future programming going over the broadband connection that might be AC-3 encoded.
The unit doesn't record digital audio. Period. But it MAY play back digital audio from On-Demand services in the future (IChannels). Also, we can all agree that using higher end connections doesn't hurt anything, even if the actual signal doesn't use the full capabilities of it. There probably were legal reprocussions to being able to record full digital video and audio.
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Not future-proofed.
I have to disagree. Replays are used to record TV, and it will, for years and years to come.(and maybe longer).

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5. Unhappy middle ground. I was picking up hints that the next generation Replay was going to be more of a house server, which would have been a great concept. The idea here is that you'd have a box in a central closet that had broadband and TV connections. You'd invest a bit of money in this server, but could then hook up inexpensive (AND QUIET!) set top boxes anywhere in the house -- all they'd need is an Ethernet link (and perhaps an antenna hookup). The house server would then pump MPEG streams to multiple boxes simultaneously. The 4000 kind of gets there: you can watch programs from another 4000, but where's the diskless, inexpensive model? And what's the roadmap for scalable house servers? How many streams can a 4000 handle? What if the disks were striped (doubling the bandwidth)?
For all we know, the next product line to come out are true home servers with thin client stations at each TV. But this ain't it.
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6. Curious design choices.
Compare the prices of the items you mention... Lexicon is VERY expensive! Don't fault the 4000 because it doesn't have every feature, future products might.
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They're $100-$200 extra (with yet another bloody power transformer). This seems silly.
You'd rather pay $100-200 more for the Replay? THAT seems silly.
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Richard, I think you are expressing some very valid concerns that have not been addressed well by Replay.


I have two of these ordered only because these appear to be the most powerful option right now but IMO they really screwed up when designing them (Unless it is planned obsolescence).


I would really like a central server set up with multiple tuners, small quiet sattelites, and the ability to record Dolby Digital. This is not too much to ask and as soon as someone comes out with it I will be all over it.


I am torn between excitement and dread about buying the 4000 :confused:
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Originally posted by RandyL712
This is normal behavior. It checks at :47 every hour to see if it needs to record at the next hour.
Actually, the disk spins up once every four hours at 42 minutes after the hour in order to perform a search for theme based recording candidates. The disk doesn't have to spin up to check the recording candidate list -- it is kept in RAM.


Ben.
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Originally posted by richardkaufmann
6. Curious design choices. Why is the only 480p output on a VGA connector?
Given the teralogic graphics chipset used in the 4000 series, I'll bet you'll be able to change a preference setting and use a VGA breakout cable to get component (y-pr-pb) signals.


Ben.
On #2: Exactly how much extra work would it have been to NOT turn on the hard drive unless you knew you were either going to make the phone call or record something that hour? JustBen's post (thanks for the explanation) makes it clear what the thing is doing. If it were in a state of inactivity for some amount of time, it could start checking for theme candidates from that time until the scheduled phone call. (It knows exactly when it needs to turn itself on.) The 40X0 can use "Wake on Lan" if they will have stuff pushed to them by a server -- same diff.


Incidentally, my DirectTV Tivo box is much, much worse. It has the most annoying whine -- and doesn't even have the decency to stop the hard drive at all. The noisy thing has been banished to the dining room.


If a box generates heat, it's consuming power (a watt is a watt is a watt). What work is it accomplishing? If it ain't doing anything, it should be cold! This is a bit of a pet peeve: for entertainment go look at all the transformer blocks and other "low power" goodies plugged into the outlets in your home. Add 'em up and you'll know what's bugging me.


On Dolby Digital: I think we're loudly agreeing with each other. "Free" echoed my concern, which I think will be shared with a lot of early adopters: they took some nice "infrastructure" steps (the ability to handle AC-3 within the box, broadband, progressive video) -- but they really haven't provided a significant enough customer benefit for all this work. There's one obvious customer benefit they could have provided: a noiseless, simple, diskless box. This box would be a 4000, without the disk, but with the ability to play material from a 40X0 elsewhere in the house (or on the internet, for whatever that's worth in practice). Let's say the box should cost $199. How about a version for $299 that does progressive scan? Such a product would improve the attractiveness of the other models just by its existence!


I don't think my point about the RGB connector came through. Progressive outputs really should be on component connections, not RGB. RGB connections aren't switched by any pre/pros or receivers I know of, and in a H/T setup with a progressive DVD player, maybe an HDTV decoder there'd be no place to plug the darned thing into. The fact that the Lexicon was so over-the-top was exactly my point -- even the expensive boxes won't handle RGB. My point about the $100-$200 "bump in the wire" converters was just to point out that it's even more expensive to use the Replay's progressive output. JustBen: thanks for the info on the Teralogic chipset -- hopefully they'll let this feature be expressed in their software.


Anyway, enough for a Monday evening. I got my complaints out. Basically I have been bothered with Replay's feature set choices for their 2nd generation box. I haven't decided whether I need to get one or not -- I think I'll probably wait. What's interesting about this is that I'm usually the first person in line for toys like the 40X0. When fools like me fear to tread, watch out!


Regards,
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I don't think anyone should be surprised by the announced featureset.


Sonicblue bought Replay for the product and needs to recoup some costs. The normal course of action in that kind of situation is to add a couple of whiz-bang features to the existing product and get it out the door and generating revenue. Then you can look to start building the next generation box and doing more cool stuff.
Needs more blinky lights - IMHO



320 hrs. ain't enough, internet "channels" is vapor and like I can't get up and go to the living room to watch TV or grab a tape for the bedroom VCR/TV? Oops gotta run, need to drive to the store to get this weeks tv guide. - later....
There was another thread about the high definition capabilities somwhere else. I would involve extensive modifications to the box to support HD, and the large majority of the masses do not have HD televisions and/or access to HD content anyways. Also, the closes PVR that supports HD is at least a year away, and is the Dish Network next generation of player.
The masses aren't going to buy this box either. I'll bet that quite a percentage of the people considering the 4000s also (will soon) have HDTV.


bill
I do have HDTV and I am buying the 4000. There is no other PVR out there that supports HD, so I am not missing anything... :)


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Originally posted by agmitch
The masses aren't going to buy this box either. I'll bet that quite a percentage of the people considering the 4000s also (will soon) have HDTV.


bill
Quote:
Originally posted by jleavens
I don't think anyone should be surprised by the announced featureset.


Sonicblue bought Replay for the product and needs to recoup some costs. The normal course of action in that kind of situation is to add a couple of whiz-bang features to the existing product and get it out the door and generating revenue. Then you can look to start building the next generation box and doing more cool stuff.
While I agree jleavens that SonicBlue would certainly want to do everything it can to hurry and get ReplayTV up off the floor, out of the red, and profitable ASAP by getting the 4Ks to market for starts. I would still have to agree with richard in that if Replay is really serious about targeting the 4Ks at the affluent high end videophile group, then at least some of these feature deficiencies that richard's pointing out are going to be pretty significant IMO in hampering their sales to them.


I mean progressive scan output on the VGA connector only? (not withstanding what JustMike suggested about a possible remedy to this shortcoming which has not been confirmed yet), progressive scan output but only interlaced scan inputs?, digital audio out but no input?, no future Hi. Def. capability?. Videophiles don't take these as mere whiz-bang features I wouldn't think.


I really don't understand how Replay's engineers can honestly expect to cut these kinds of corners on their 4Ks and not expect them to effect their prospective sales to the targeted group.
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JustBen,


If the drive only spins up to check themes, will it remain off if there are no themes set, ie. only show based recordings? That would be useful if you wanted to keep a second unit in the bedroom quiet.
Nope, it will always spin up at the appointed times. I personally have disabled disk spindown on all of my PVRs... it seems safer that way.


Ben.
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Originally posted by JustBen
I personally have disabled disk spindown on all of my PVRs... it seems safer that way.


Ben.
Really? you personally disabled it? You didn't have one of your henchmen do it? I'm shocked Ben .... shocked. ;)


~Doug
Well... you know... if you want something done right, you do it yourself... :)


Ben.
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