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Discussion Starter #1
This morning I asked if there is a way to use a DVBs (digital sattelite reception card) with Dscaler in a single PC. For some reason this question disappeared. I can't imagine there is anything wrong with it :mad:


Wykat
 

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Hi Wykat:


___The initiator of the thread could have deleted it. That is the way the Forum worked with the older forum SW and I will assume the same currently. I don’t know for sure since I have not deleted a thread I created as a non-mod in another AVScience forum yet. I have a question posted in the Moderator forum about other threads that have disappeared in the HT Computer forum as well but have received no reply as of yet so it still may be a new SW glitch?


___Hopefully I will have an answer soon …


___Wayne R. Gerdes

___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.

___ [email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi,


I have created the thread this morning myself and not deleted it. Since I still have no solution I will open a new one :D


Wykat
 

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I noticed the same thing happened a couple of w2eeks ago with a thread on PDVD 4, and then it treappeared next time I signed on. Quite mysterious. Bill
 

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Hi Wykat,


nice to see you here.


Your thread isn't disapeared it is on page 2 from 6 :).


You can't use DScaler with DVB's because it needs a TV Card with BT8xx Chipset afaik. The question is why do you think you need DScaler?


See you in the dvbforum.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi Troete, ;)


I'm sure it wasn't on any of the next pages because I checked at least 3 times. It looks as if they get 'lost' between pages and then not appear for some time. This fits with Bill Gaw2.


Why I need Dscaler? I have a Piano projector and when using WinDVBlive I always get the impression as if the picture is not sharp via the DVI connection. The problem is that DVI has a fixed resolution (for me 800*600) which avoids the projector to do interlacing ;( .


Even when I play a DIVX (compressed DVD) the image quality is better then looking directly from the DVBs card.


I've tried RGB directly from the DVBs card, but somehow this doesn't work. (the Piano claim Yc..... maybe they are just not compatible).


Then I tried normal video, but over 10 meter the quality is too poor.


Still planning to try s-video, but need to build another adapter for that again.


Easiest solution would be a good video picture via DVI


rgrds,

Wykat
 

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Hi Wykat,


hmm sounds strange.

Quote:
I have a Piano projector and when using WinDVBlive I always get the impression as if the picture is not sharp via the DVI connection. The problem is that DVI has a fixed resolution (for me 800*600) which avoids the projector to do interlacing ;( .
Maybe it is because it is not sharp what the broadcaster is sending to you. You can only try with a station like ARD which sends in full resolution.

I know that the bandwidth on DVI is limited but what does that mean that you say that the projector is doing interlacing?

The physical resolution of the projector is 800x600?


RGB should be compatible if you do syncing right. It is possible that horizontal or vertical does not have the right polarity or the projector needs sync on green or so. If so you have to build an adapter. Very simple ;).
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Maybe my explanation was too short;


When I watch the normal Windows picture on 800*600 resolution, the picture shown by the projector is ok. However when I use WinDVBlive to watch TV programs, the picture quality is clearly worse. I know from other discussions and chat about WinDVBlive it is not very strong on interlacing. That's the reason I'm looking into dscaler. It is however claimed that WinDVBlive and Dscaler will not work on a single PC. Therefor I'm looking for an alternative in stead of installing an additional PC.


Any link to this RGB issue?


rgrds,

Wykat
 

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@Wykat


Ok, let's try to start an explanation.

If you show the windows desktop this is a progressive signal in 800x600 or so. When you show the signal from the DVB's this is, like all DVB Streams in Europe, interlaced PAL.

Quote:
I know from other discussions and chat about WinDVBlive it is not very strong on interlacing.
It makes no sense for me to interlace an interlaced signal. I think you mean that WinDVBLive is not good in deinterlacing an interlaced signal. That's also not true. It depends on the features the Grafikcard has and the possibilities of the drivers. Normally the Softwaredvdplayer do this with an filter like BOB or Weave. This are not perfect solutions that's why there exist some (not real-time) filters like "smart deinterlacer" for VDUB and other progs.

If you show the DVB-stream on the Desktop in a small window you get some artifacts because your desktop is progressive and the DVB-Stream is interlaced and also the "Bildwiederholfrequenz" (don't know the english word) of the Grafikcard and the DVB-Stream is very different (50Hz to 70-120Hz).

If you show it in fullscreen you have the same problems but the resolution is a little bit nicer. The scaling is normally done on the DVB's card itself. WinDVBLive try's to use some GraKa features to get a nicer picture but only on the PC-Monitor! If you like to use this features you have to use the VGA Out of the GraKa.

The RGB or Y/C Out of the DVB's has NOTHING to do with this. Absolutely nothing.


Ok, i think you have 2 possible solutions. At first you can use the Y/C or RGB Out of the DVB's and hope that the "piano" can handle this or you have to play with PowerStrip to get a useable resolution on the VGA out together with the deinterlacing features of WinDVBLive.

It gives a third solution over the modlines of X but i think it is to early for now. :)


Here is a link for RGB: http://www.hut.fi/Misc/Electronics/c...v/circuit.html


I don't know why you think it is not possible to use the DVB's together with a framegrabbercard in the same pc. I think it is a problem of the WinDVBLive Soft but it gives some alternative Soft like DVBsVCR2 or so. Afaik in the beginning of playing with my DVB's i had both cards together in my PC. The DVB's needs nearly no systemresources if you use the FBAS-Out so you can have the full power to deinterlace.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Troete,


you're right on a lot of aspects, but the situtation is (I think) a little more complex. Let me first list the different options and results I've achieved so far. Additionally it should be noted that the distance between my PC and the beamer is approx 11 Meter;


The piano has 4 different inputs available;

1) DVI

2) RGB

3) YC or S-video

4) CVBS


1) DVI

This is where I'm having problems in getting a good picture quality from the DVBs card. Basically it is the same as using a PC monitor. The Windows picture is ok, but a full screen DVB picture doesn't look really sharp. When I understand your comments, I should try some additional settings with the graka (Radeon VE).

Since a DVI connection enforces a fixed resolution from the Graka, the Piano will get 800*600 and in no way I would be able to send it the original (interlaced) DVB picture. This means that all transformation (interlaced - de-interlaced, resolution and framerate) must be done in the PC. Here I was hoping that Dscaler could help.


2) RGB

I've tried 2 ways to use the RGB input;

a) from the VGA output on the Graka. This didn't work since the sync signals where missing and the Piano only has the R, G and B inputs, and not the separate H and V sync. I was hoping to use the RGB output to send the original interlaced, PAL resolution and frame rate to the Piano.

The latest I've learned is that it may be possible to enable the sync over color function via a software utility. Haven't tried this yet.

b) I've also tried to connect the internal J2 connector with the R, G and B signals to the Piano. Also here it gave me the impression that there was no sync, although there are no separate sync signals on the J2 connector. The problem here may be that the DVBs card sends RGB and the projector expects YCbCr (I don't know the difference ;( )


3) YC

Also here 2 options

a) YC on the Graka

The initial result was worse then with DVI above but I haven't tried to set the resolution to the original DVBs settings.

b) YC directly from the DVBs

Not tried yet, have to make an interface


4) CVBS

Again 2 options here

a) on Graka

Haven't tried this, but result will for sure be worse then with YC.

b) from DVBs

Picture was dark and unsharp, probably caused by the long distance between PC and beamer.


I think this leaves me with following options;

5) Play around with different settings of the Graka (and WinDVBlive?) to get a better picture quality via DVI (Prefered solution)

6) Resolve the DVBs RGB to YCbCr problem

7) Try directly YC from the DVBs to the beamer

missing something ?


From other discussions in this forum, DVBforum and *********, it is my understanding that WinDVBlive and Dscaler will not work together. Therefor it was requested by some people to incorporate Dscaler into WinDVBlive.


thx for your support :)


Wykat
 

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Hi Wykat,


you have already sorted the inputs of the "piano" qualitywise.


1)

DVI is the best solution because it uses digital signals. Normally the picture should be clear and crisp. If you have some problems with this you should eliminate all possible troublemakers like long wires, to high frame rate, interlaced source. I don't know but is this also wrong if you play a dvd?

All i know from projectors is that still picture looks good while moving pictures can looking worse because of some limits of the lcd.

Another problem is the scaling of lower or higher resolutions than the physical resolution of the lcd. That looks mostly worse. That's what i wanted to say in my first posting. I know my english is not as good as yours..... :rolleyes:


Ah yes, no, DVI can have more than one resolution but is limited in bandwidth and physical resolution of the lcd. The resolution limit for one channel DVI is 1280x1024. Maybe different settings for Graka and projector?

Hmm, i have not found any lengthlimit. There should be one.


2)

a)

I have also heard about that it should be possible on some rare Graka to do so but on all others you have to build your own adapter with sync on green.

b)

may be the sync is inverted (wrong polarity) or not on the right wire. YCbCr is Componentsignal. Not as popular as Y/C in germany for normal people. If you have read the link in my previous posting you have also found som links to converters for translating rgb2YCbCr and vice versa.


Has the "piano" RGB or YCbCr inputs? this is a big difference.


3)

a) not a good solution. to many stations and convertions on the way from DVB's to Graka out.

b) this would i prefere. it uses only 4 wires and has the original resolution. if this dont work nothing will.


4)

a) same arguments like in 3)a) to long way through pc

b) to dark means to much loss, to long wire but compensable with higher amplification. to unsharp means that you have a bad cable with to much loss in the high frequency area, wrong output driver or wrong impedance. But wrong impedance at 11 meter long cable means also ghostpictures and if you dont have some it is only loss.


5)

Yes, no. Yes, i would play with the parameters for the graka, no, i don't know if it is possible to get better picture quality with WinDVBLive. My impression is to let WinDVBLive where it is and to use some of the original soft from tt or soft which uses the sdk from them.

Or stay away from Win and use Linux. ;)


6)

In the DVBsVCR2 soft from Thomas Gatterweh i think is a point where you can change the behavior of the output from RGB to YCbCr.

No, i was wrong. There is a setting for PAL/NTSC, Composite&RGB, Composite&S-VHS and S-VHS.

You have to build your own converter. :(


7)

Yes, that's worth a try. RGB over such a long distance is "not the yellow of the egg" :D



I would prefere DVI because it uses "low voltage differential signals".


Can you send me a scan of the description of your "piano" (Bedienungsanleitung, techn. Daten) ? Would be nice. Alternatively an adress where i can download some description would be helpfull. The DVB's i have myself.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hi again,


After some comments in the DVBforum about my english, I can tell you your English is better then my German ;) .

Quote:
DVI is the best solution because it uses digital signals. Normally the picture should be clear and crisp. If you have some problems with this you should eliminate all possible troublemakers like long wires, to high frame rate, interlaced source
I'm using a 10 + 5 meter (45 feet) cable and the standard Windows picture is OK.

Quote:
I don't know but is this also wrong if you play a dvd?
No DVD is perfect and even DIVX is better then the picture I get with the DVBs/WinDVBlive


Quote:
Hmm, i have not found any lengthlimit.
http://www.extron.com/download/files...ectdigital.pdf It shows how dependent the length is of the resolution used.

Quote:
may be the sync is inverted (wrong polarity) or not on the right wire. YCbCr is Componentsignal. Not as popular as Y/C in germany for normal people. If you have read the link in my previous posting you have also found som links to converters for translating rgb2YCbCr and vice versa.
Yes have read and found them. However they are called slightly different. Send a mail to get some more information.

Quote:
Has the "piano" RGB or YCbCr inputs? this is a big difference
The manual Piano and the manual claim YCbCr connected with a RGB cable. I assume it is really YCbCr. Found some info on your link as well.

Quote:
b) this would i prefere. it uses only 4 wires and has the original resolution. if this dont work nothing will.
Murphey's law. The only option I have not yet tried ;( .

Quote:
b) to dark means to much loss, to long wire but compensable with higher amplification. to unsharp means that you have a bad cable with to much loss in the high frequency area, wrong output driver or wrong impedance. But wrong impedance at 11 meter long cable means also ghostpictures and if you dont have some it is only loss.
Brightness is definitely less then with DVI (checked again in the dark).

Sharpness is comparable with DVI (not better, not worse)

No ghostpictures are visible.

Must state, I'm using a standard sattelite cable with 2 cinch connectors.

Quote:
Yes, no. Yes, i would play with the parameters for the graka, no, i don't know if it is possible to get better picture quality with WinDVBLive. My impression is to let WinDVBLive where it is and to use some of the original soft from tt or soft which uses the sdk from them
This is what I want to avoid. I have a perfect working system via normal remote control including DVB, DVD, DIVX, MP3 Jukebox, slideshow function, etc, etc. (never though a running system)

Quote:
Or stay away from Win and use Linux.
Working on that already ;) . However I'm doing this on a complete new dedicated PC (As stated above don't touch a working system). My problem here is that I don't get any cvbs signal anymore from the DVBs card, neither with WinDVBlive nor with VDR :( .

Quote:
Yes, that's worth a try. RGB over such a long distance is "not the yellow of the egg
So YC may be better and less critical then RGB. This was really the only thing not yet tested ;) .


rgrds,

Wykat
 

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Oh ha, das is 'n DMD!

This changes all.


The physical resolution is 848x600. If you use a higher or lower resolution it is stretched or squeezed. It is highly recommended that you use this resolution. (not really true, you have to use 800x600 for 4:3 or 848x480 for 16:9) If you send 720(708)x576 this will be scaled up/down.

:)) i have found a really good description of the "piano" HE-3100 :))

RGB IS component video input. The producer claims that DVI ist the best for high quality signals. Max length seems to be 10 Meter.


I will think about it.
 

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 http://www.wolfvision.com/wolf/faq.html

Quote:
In general in can be said that LCD- or DLP Projector are best suited for the VZ-47 (VZ-45b) as there is no image flickering on such projectors. If the resolution of the LCD-panel or the DLP-chip is 800x600 the picture quality of the VZ-47 / VZ-45b will be optimized.

If the resolution of the panel is higher you should check if the projector offers a "window function", which means that it can use only the exact 782x582 pixels in the middle of the panel for the projection of the Visualizer image. It does not convert the image to full resolution (e.g. 1024x768). When the resolution is up converted, there is often loss of quality.


Of course the loss of quality is much worse when the resolution is down converted. For example when the resolution of the LCD-display is only 640x480 and higher resolutions (such as the 782x582 pixels of the VZ-47 / VZ-45b) are down converted to 640x480.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I'm a little puzzled about your last responces. Why do you say everyting changed ?


Tried to make a YC cable directly to DVBs tonight, but somehow it doesn't work. It's probably not my day ;( . Have to think how I'm going to solve this.


Wykat
 

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Hi Wykat,


TFT and DMD are very different devices. Some problems you have with a tft are not existent with a dmd but you get some other. Smearing in fast moving scenes is away as example.


But this doesn't really help you. Really important is the last posting with the snippet from wolfvision. I think this explains your problems with worse quality.

All of the descriptions i have read about the "piano" claims that you have to use one of the 2 resolutions to get good quality pictures.


Tut mir leid aber scheint bei Dir so zu sein.


Greetings Troete
 
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