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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was thinking of going with IB, however, I'm now in California... hard to get a big house here without costing over 2 Million... The Black Hole Sub cabinets I built previously are outstanding, but a couple of the Aura 1808/Seismic drivers are in need of maintainance. The combination of the above is leading me toward a solution that would work now and in any extremely high end theater... It is quite possible I could get the opportunity to build a custom theater about 20x30' in as early as a year... or I may have to settle with a slighly smaller non-custom room... In any case I want to do an extreme project using up to 15 or so 18" drivers...


I'm not sure what are the best available subwoofer drivers. I have not yet seen the FAN subwoofer, but there is an install of those about 30 minutes from me in San Jose... I don't like the Fan subwoofer since the bandwidth is only good to about 1-30 Hz... I'd rather have something cover 5-60 Hz... I know the Dolby Lake processor isn't available, but something similar should be available soon. I.E., I will get the necessary room EQ to make this flat as possible to 5 Hz...


The other consideration is room modes and subwoofer placement... it seems that there has been a shift into best places for sub placements. I used to think an array in each front corner was a good idea if croosed at 50 Hz or below (perhaps using 8-10 subs in each front corner)... Then I was thinking about just using 3 rows of 5 (18") in one of the front corners and just crossing at 50 Hz... Then I hear about people putting a horizontal rwo across the front wall, which is weird to me since that involves middle of the wall... either way I need to come up with a plan.


The (4) Black Hole subs (2 stacked in each front corner) Similar to Wilson XS subs worked well, but in the current rental house they are about 24 feet apart using the width of the room. I think they may have been too far apart, even crossed at 60 Hz...


I do like the black hole subs but they are literally 4 feet deep cabinets so that I could use 10" ports and tune to 14 Hz... The cabinet depth is a little annoying. So what I am thinking is that maybe I should just go back to multiple sealed subwoofers in large sealed enlosures... It wouldn't be IB, but I could make the enclosures failry large. It would give me flexibility in terms of placement and stacking as well as portability... Not sure how Isobaric would help or not? Does anyone do isobaric subs these days? Do you get more displacement with two 18 inch subs in the same cabinet on opposite ends out of phase, or simply decrease Vas? Its been a while and I'm forgetting a lot these days....


I'm just looking to build a cost no object setup as usual, but a lot depends on how you you would utilize multiple 18" drivers given the above...


Also, anyone know what happened to the DIY speakers /Bass list?

"The DIYspeakers Forum The new home of the DIYspeakers mailing list (formerly known as the Bass List)" It seems to have been overrun by porn spam bots. Where do the people on the bass list hang out these days? I really miss the bass list since it was an amazing collection of engineers and hobbiests.
 

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I would point you to the lms ultra, but they are no longer available. I have heard one and its probably the best bass driver I have heard. Most will agree with that but they are not around unless you find used.


Turning to something more readily available is the re xxx 18". I heard this one directly after the lms and its quality was nearly as good, but edged the lms in extension by just a tiny bit, output by a decent amount and excursion.by a decent amount. They are a little expensive, but you don't seem to care about that.


The maelstrom 18 and upcoming maelstrom 21 are also good drivers. Both of those should be looked into also.


Sealed in your case would be the way to go. Add some eq and you should get that 5 hz, but with that many drivers you are looking at needing around 45000 watts. That calls for a big electrical upgrade.
 

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Infinite baffle, 8 x $ 150 drivers + EP4000 & BFD. Done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think Deon Bearden designed the lms ultra.


In any case, I was thinking of an IB for many years, however, I'm thinking I don't have the patience to see what develops with the housing situation. I could use very large sealed enclosures and just make 15 boxes
I'd have flexibility and portability...


When is the Maelstrom 21 coming out? Anyone have some links on these all the drivers mentioned? I don;t mind upgrading the electric... not an issue. I want flat to 5 Hz with 1% distortion at 130 dB...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut /forum/post/16939518


I want flat to 5 Hz with 1% distortion at 130 dB...

Wow...that's quite a goal.


16 Mal-X with about 35mm excursion 1-way gets you to 112dB 5Hz. With massive gain you probably reach 130dB. But definitely over 100% distortion.


Power is not an issue deep down low, driver Xmax is.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...cial-test.html


You need to speak to Tom Danley/Keith Yates to customise somethin for ya....


They have a BFT-9 sub (Brute Force Trauma 9Hz subwoofer) that's like a DTS-20 with a 9Hz knee. I am sure 5Hz is not an issue. A quad set easily hits 130dB low disto, not 1% but should be great.

Either that or 16 sets of Mark Seaton's submersive XL (he can accelerate development for ya).
 

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Quote:
want flat to 5 Hz with 1% distortion at 130 dB...


Good luck



Btw, you do get room gain too so maybe 10Hz with 1% THD @ 130dB is just as good.


If you want the best and lowest end then its the Thigpen Rotary Sub. You can just add several sealed subs for the higher end.

Quote:
I don't like the Fan subwoofer since the bandwidth is only good to about 1-30 Hz... I'd rather have something cover 5-60 Hz... I know the Dolby Lake processor isn't available, but something similar should be available soon. I.E., I will get the necessary room EQ to make this flat as possible to 5 Hz...

No reason not to have "Two" systems to obtain the optimal performance.


Other then that you said you can not do an IB.


Those are the BEST no cost solutions and you can not do either?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2100 /forum/post/16939881


Wow...that's quite a goal.


16 Mal-X with about 35mm excursion 1-way gets you to 112dB 5Hz. With massive gain you probably reach 130dB. But definitely over 100% distortion.


Power is not an issue deep down low, driver Xmax is.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...cial-test.html


You need to speak to Tom Danley/Keith Yates to customise somethin for ya....


They have a BFT-9 sub (Brute Force Trauma 9Hz subwoofer) that's like a DTS-20 with a 9Hz knee. I am sure 5Hz is not an issue. A quad set easily hits 130dB low disto, not 1% but should be great.

Either that or 16 sets of Mark Seaton's submersive XL (he can accelerate development for ya).

Where could I find more info for the Yates bft9? I did a very quick search and only found something about his yearly informal gathering.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut /forum/post/16939518


I think Deon Bearden designed the lms ultra.


In any case, I was thinking of an IB for many years, however, I'm thinking I don't have the patience to see what develops with the housing situation. I could use very large sealed enclosures and just make 15 boxes
I'd have flexibility and portability...


When is the Maelstrom 21 coming out? Anyone have some links on these all the drivers mentioned? I don;t mind upgrading the electric... not an issue. I want flat to 5 Hz with 1% distortion at 130 dB...

I'd do lots of studding and drywall repairs after the IB was removed... that's a lot more economical than putting in a 200 amp service just for a HT/ music room. If you buy in bulk, John J @ AE has the IB 15 that doesn't require a lot of power to get to full excursion. They are $ 125 each in bulk. 16 of them would get you stupid output, and even with a pair of EP2500's that would be less than $3000.


Your multiple amps would be consuming more electricity as well as having a higher initial cost. If you said that the drivers cost you $ 500 in bulk, and you were going to purchase 16, that's going to be $8000 in drivers.

Add $ 1000 for enclosure supplies, and at least 4 $ 1500 amps. That's $15G.


Can you adopt me?



The room will contribute more than 1% distortion at that kind of output. Drywall will be flapping in the wind, you will pull it off of the studs. Kinda like this:
[/IMG]




 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash /forum/post/16940592


Where could I find more info for the Yates bft9? I did a very quick search and only found something about his yearly informal gathering.

You'd have to ask him directly. Its custom. Costly yes, but I think budget is not much of a problem.


---------------------

My UberSub, the BFT9 (for "Blunt Force Trauma, 9Hz") is its own thing; there's no equivalent in the current Danley line. It doesn't use 12-inch drivers. It's made under exclusive license from Danley Sound Labs, but is not manufactured by Danley, or anyone connected with Danley. You can think of it as a DTS20 that someone stuck a hose in and blew up. It's about 8 ft long, 4 ft high and 2' deep. Outdoors, it's flat to 9Hz without EQ. It feels like internal organ massage. I've been in the business since 1973. The only certified genius I've met in all those years: Tom Danley.


If it makes you feel better, a set of quads could be just a bit more costly than robertcharles' quad LMS.
 

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Best option is using the TRW17 fan subs, but you don't want them, followed by an IB but that's out as well.


I'd second 2100 with contacting Danley Sound Labs. Tom can probably cook something up for you that will be incredible for less than you think.


If you want to go DIY go with sealed subs and a lot of them. LMS's or Ultra's are great but honestly it's probably not worth it for a build like this. Plus they aren't really available and warranty work looks sketchy. RE XXX's are good but again hugely expensive and powering 8 or 12 of them will be a nightmare. Waiting for the Mal-X 21's which should land in another month and a half could be worthwhile. You'd only need about 8 of them to do severe damage. Mal-x's are good too. If you aren't completely set on 18's or 21's there are AE's AV15's. 16 of those would be about $4000. Either way you are probably better off with solid but affordable drivers. With that many drivers you probaby won't ever push them to the limit so getting the absolute best drivers would be a waste of money. The better drivers really differentiate themselves at higher volume levels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You reminded me again about how I really need to do NEW ROOM construction... I've been meaning to read Allison's "Master Handbook of acoustics" and "sound studio construction on a budget" I've owned them for ten years but never seem to get around to doing it... Why does California have to be so nice, yet so screwed up in terms of cost of living



In any case, I do understand all of the points made here, and they are all very good. I'm waiting to have a discussion with Deon Bearden as well. He has been an outstanding friend and taught me a ton of speaker physics. I saw Mark Seaton a few weeks ago when he was at a meet in the east bay but did not have a chance to have a discussion with him. I remember hearing about the Contrabass from Thomas Danley over the years...


The Fan subs could be considered if I had a nice sized permanent home. I'm looking to by a house within a year, however, 1.5M doesn't buy very much in the San Francisco bay area, particulary the peninsula... It figures I like Palo Alto the best, and it is rediculous the crap you get for 1.5M.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci /forum/post/16942248



If you want to go DIY go with sealed subs and a lot of them.

That was the solution I was leaning to because it gives me flexibility and portability. It would have to be something I could use in a future home theater as well, even a custom designed new construction. Some of my thought process is being tied up by room placement of multiple 18" drivers. Assuming I keep the subwoofers crossed at 50 Hz, would you just stack them all in one corner? I keep hearing different trends in what is best for placement of multiple subwoofers. I am always going to use full range speakers and always cross subwoofers very low...


Nonetheless all the options are on the table, including just being patient for one more year. How desireable would it be to have multiple stacked sealed subs all in one corner? Depending on the driver characteristics, that will depend on how large I make the individual cabinets. Last I remember, ISOBARIC subs are a waste of time, although I thought you get lower distortion?


The 21" drivers are appealing simply becasue you can have so much more displacement reducing the total number of drivers needed-- assuming the 21" drivers are well designed. Oh and assuming they have the saem Xmax of the 18" drivers.


The main goal here is to keep the drivers TOTALLY within their linear excurion during PEAKS. I guess there are lots of factors in evaluating drivers: power compression, linearity, and a bunch of others I suppose... I suppose you could have excessive headroom, but it is hard to judge where to draw the line. I need quality and quantity
 

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why not just move to Pittsburg, see the Steelers live, put your housing budget to 'great' use, build a dream home theatre, and stop all this worryin
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yes, my parents would like that... I'm hooked on the weather, the nice job, and the bay area it seems... I've been thinking about what you said for a couple years, but I'm hooked for the time being...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
My last major subwoofer project used 1.25" marine grade no void plywood with 2.5" front baffles (laminated two pieces together). If I were to go the very large sealed route, I would probably use 1.75" thick marine grade plywood... I remember that same manufacturer offered that... With 1.75" thick no void plywood, it certainly eliminates the need for any significant cross bracing...


So, just to get this correct, ISOBARIC sealed subs are a waste of time? I guess wiring one of the drivers on the other end of the enclosure out of phase does not offer as much discplacement as two seperate subs...?
 

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Hi Health Nut ... I was sure that you'd eventually need to start tinkering again!


If you are going IB and go AES, I think that the 15" AV-H and AV-X drive units give you more Vd, and 50% less Le. I think the give less distortion. JJ would be the man to tell you. (This is the route I am going).


I didn't go Audiopulse (expensive), Aurasound (very interesting engineering).


I would now also consider Exodus Maelstrom-21".

There is something at the back of my head that says there is no replacement for actual diameter when compared to the wavelength being produced.


I thought that B&C did some colossal monster for this reason (>= 26 " .. can't find it though)!




AJ
 
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