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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
*** Updated 12/6/17 - Including final results and links to projects along the way ***

Project completed a few months ago, the final results are listed below:
LCR: Fusion-15s - BUILD THREAD
Surrounds and Rear (added): Volt-6 - BUILD THREAD
Atmos: Triad In Ceiling Silver
Front sub: 2 Custom Marty - BUILD THREAD
Side sub: 2 shallow form factor - BUILD THREAD

Gear ended up being:
Denon 6300
(2x) MiniDSP 8x8HD
Marantz 8077
Marantz 7055
Behringer iNuke 6000DSP
Behringer iNuke 3000

Final Pics:
Fusion-15s and Custom Martys
Before


After


Surrounds and rears


Shallow form factor subs





Original post - 10/12/16
Hey all. I've been working for the last couple of years on a dedicated HT, mostly focusing on the room. As that is nearing completion, I'm planning to turn my soon-to-be-available time and budget to electronics and speakers. The plan all along has to open up the theater with existing speakers and electronics, and upgrade as I go along. You can see the room specifics and dimensions here.

Opening day there will be a combination of speaker sets used:
LCR & WL&R will be an old set of Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble (2?) system
4 surrounds will be an old set of Bose Lifestyle (28?) speakers
4 ceilings will be new (to me) Triad In-Ceiling bronzes
2 sub are Klipsch 12'

I haven't bought the electronics yet, but I'm leaning towards:
Denon AVR X7200
External power amplifier (undecided) for the last couple of channels, to get to 13
External sub amps, leaning towards iNUKE 3000s

Soooo, lets talk DIY speakers
I've built most everything you see in my HT thread, and would like to build DIY speakers. I've read a lot of good info in these stickys, and a lot of cool build threads, and I think I have more questions than I started with! As a DIY speaker nubie, I've decided to stick to known speaker configurations and flatpacks. Here's what I'm thinking:
LCR - Elusive 1099s
WL&R - Cohesive 893s
4 Surrounds - Volt 6s
Ceilings - Keep the Triads
Subs - 2x 3cu ft w/Dayton RSS390 & Bash 500w amps

Now the questions:
- Are those speakers sufficient for a strong HT movie sound?
- Are they well matched as a set?
- Is that enough for the room?
- Can I keep the same electronics?
- What am I missing?

Thanks in advance for the comments!
 

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i would look at some 18s to keep up with the fronts you are planning. i have 1099s and lms ultras with a clone and the ultras barely keep up
 

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Discussion Starter #3
i would look at some 18s to keep up with the fronts you are planning. i have 1099s and lms ultras with a clone and the ultras barely keep up
Hmmm, I tried to find those 18s and it looks like they're discontinued and out of stock everywhere? Also, I don't know what a clone is?
 

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i would look at stereo integrity 18s or uxl or um18. a clone is a knock off of the fp14000 amp that puts out about 8000 watts
 

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Discussion Starter #6
i would look at stereo integrity 18s or uxl or um18. a clone is a knock off of the fp14000 amp that puts out about 8000 watts
Thanks! How do I find a clone?

Why X7200? Definitely plan on four 18's, you really need that for the proper output and bass smoothing in a room of that size. I'd look at either DS4's or HST18's
It's pretty much the only receiver I can find that's capable of handling the 13 channels. It's either that or straight separates, which I can't quite afford right now.
 

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Thanks! How do I find a clone?



It's pretty much the only receiver I can find that's capable of handling the 13 channels. It's either that or straight separates, which I can't quite afford right now.
If you skip the wide channels you can get an X4300, save a pile of money, and with proper waveguide speakers you really don't need wide channels IMO.
 

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Or you can get the X6300 instead which has 11 Ch of built in amplifiers. Also I don't believe the X7200 can do 13 channels (11 channels + 2 subs), it only does 9 channels + 2 subs, so you would have to go to either 2 surrounds or 2 ceiling, not 4 of both if you have wides.
 

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I agree with the comments above. Skip the wides, just focus on LCR, surrounds/surround backs, and ceiling (if you can go that way).
I also agree with the sub comments. I own 1099's and 2-18's do not keep up. If you've got a large room, I would look at 4-18's. Stereo Integrity DS4 or HST-18, Dayton Ultimax or Dayton H.O., Mach 5 audio UXL are a couple of options for subs.
 

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DougUSMC said:
Now the questions:
- Are those speakers sufficient for a strong HT movie sound?
- Are they well matched as a set?
- Is that enough for the room?
- Can I keep the same electronics?
- What am I missing?

Thanks in advance for the comments!
1099 is more than sufficient, it's one of the loudest speakers I've heard that size. You won't be able to tolerate it anywhere near the point it might distort or damage.

Matched as a set I would say no. Different models, different speaker designers, and different branded parts. But EQ could help negate.

It's plenty for the room.

You might want to add a sub or two and consider the placement relative to bass response. Multiple subs and locations tends to have a postive effect on response - and more important allows you to EQ it for multiple seats.

If you really want wides I would use matching ones so perhaps 5x 1099. The 893 actually has better bass response but I don't see that being an advantage in that application so the matching might trump that in importance.
 

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i would look at some 18s to keep up with the fronts you are planning. i have 1099s and lms ultras with a clone and the ultras barely keep up
Oh come on now...
A pair of LMS's output 130db of mid-bass @ 1m, and THX level to 15hz @ 1m (if you port them... otherwise 20hz.)
Unless you are using RF-19's or SI-24's then that's pretty much: as loud as it gets.
Neither the LMS or 19 or 24 are "cheap".

The problem is that the LMS doesn't distort and the human ear is insensitive to bass. 80db @ 30hz = 1db @ 4khz
That's a LARGE difference to make up for, regardless of which sub you use... (if you do the actual math, 1db vs 80db is like 100million times the power-level required to match it.)
If the roles were reversed, if treble were insensitive, the SEOS's would sound just as weak in that same scenario.
It has nothing to do with the device and everything to do with how human ears work...

The solution is to buy more 18's. But you already knew that...
 

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Oh come on now...
A pair of LMS's output 130db of mid-bass @ 1m, and THX level to 15hz @ 1m (if you port them... otherwise 20hz.)
Unless you are using RF-19's or SI-24's then that's pretty much: as loud as it gets.
Neither the LMS or 19 or 24 are "cheap".

The problem is that the LMS doesn't distort and the human ear is insensitive to bass. 80db @ 30hz = 1db @ 4khz
That's a LARGE difference to make up for, regardless of which sub you use... (if you do the actual math, 1db vs 80db is like 100million times the power-level required to match it.)
If the roles were reversed, if treble were insensitive, the SEOS's would sound just as weak in that same scenario.
It has nothing to do with the device and everything to do with how human ears work...

The solution is to buy more 18's. But you already knew that...
my ultras will be getting put into some lowarhorns soon so hopefully wont need anymore
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Wow, a lot of awesome stuff here, THANKS everyone for the awesome feedback! I'm already mentally changing up my plans, but some of the responses have me scratching my head a bit...


Or you can get the X6300 instead which has 11 Ch of built in amplifiers. Also I don't believe the X7200 can do 13 channels (11 channels + 2 subs), it only does 9 channels + 2 subs, so you would have to go to either 2 surrounds or 2 ceiling, not 4 of both if you have wides.
The manual shows how to do 13: Use the 11 output leads, and pre-out for 12 & 13 to an external amp. I plan to output the subs to external amps, and from there to (4-6) subs in the room.

I agree with the comments above. Skip the wides, just focus on LCR, surrounds/surround backs, and ceiling (if you can go that way).
I also agree with the sub comments. I own 1099's and 2-18's do not keep up. If you've got a large room, I would look at 4-18's. Stereo Integrity DS4 or HST-18, Dayton Ultimax or Dayton H.O., Mach 5 audio UXL are a couple of options for subs.
Wow, not a lot of folks interested in the wides. I'm wondering why this concensus? I'm thinking I want maximum flexibility for making my movie experience what I'm looking for. Is there just the belief that they're unnecessary, or something else here?
Thanks MUCH for the list of 18's to check out. I think they run the full field from ~$250 - 600 ea!?!? Is there anywhere that someone as new to this as I am can "reasonably" compare them?

1099 is more than sufficient, it's one of the loudest speakers I've heard that size. You won't be able to tolerate it anywhere near the point it might distort or damage.

Matched as a set I would say no. Different models, different speaker designers, and different branded parts. But EQ could help negate.

It's plenty for the room.

You might want to add a sub or two and consider the placement relative to bass response. Multiple subs and locations tends to have a postive effect on response - and more important allows you to EQ it for multiple seats.

If you really want wides I would use matching ones so perhaps 5x 1099. The 893 actually has better bass response but I don't see that being an advantage in that application so the matching might trump that in importance.
Thanks for this, it cleared up a lot. I understand what you're saying about mixing the models, and think that makes sense. Since I'm looking to expand the subs from 2 to (at least) 4, what's the pros/cons of changing up from 5x1099 to 5x893? This will free up just a little for more subs, but every bit helps!



Oh come on now...
A pair of LMS's output 130db of mid-bass @ 1m, and THX level to 15hz @ 1m (if you port them... otherwise 20hz.)
Unless you are using RF-19's or SI-24's then that's pretty much: as loud as it gets.
Neither the LMS or 19 or 24 are "cheap".

The problem is that the LMS doesn't distort and the human ear is insensitive to bass. 80db @ 30hz = 1db @ 4khz
That's a LARGE difference to make up for, regardless of which sub you use... (if you do the actual math, 1db vs 80db is like 100million times the power-level required to match it.)
If the roles were reversed, if treble were insensitive, the SEOS's would sound just as weak in that same scenario.
It has nothing to do with the device and everything to do with how human ears work...

The solution is to buy more 18's. But you already knew that...
Yup, I'm now leaning towards 4x18s, and starting to research what I'd need to make that happen. I was thinking about (2) 2x18s cabinets, but can't find a flatpack for those anywhere? Is this just because everyone picks up a couple of 4 cuft packs and just stacks them?
 

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Wow, a lot of awesome stuff here, THANKS everyone for the awesome feedback! I'm already mentally changing up my plans, but some of the responses have me scratching my head a bit...



The manual shows how to do 13: Use the 11 output leads, and pre-out for 12 & 13 to an external amp. I plan to output the subs to external amps, and from there to (4-6) subs in the room.
The X7200WA has a total of 15 outputs (13 for speakers and 2 for subs). Of the 13 outputs available for the speakers, the receiver only has enough processing power to use 11 of those outputs at the same time. The 2 sub channels are always active. So even though you can connect 13 channels worth of amplifiers to all the speaker channels, you will be forced to select to use the wides and 1 pair of overheads/atmos enabled speakers, or you forgo the wides and use 4 overheads/atmos enabled speakers. Now I think the general consensus for those wanting to really get into the whole dolby atmos/dts-x thing, going with the 4 overheads is more desirable than just doing 2. Now I believe the X7200 is flexible enough to where you can opt to use wides and 4 overheads, BUT you will have to forgo surround back to keep it to 11 channels max. So your options are 9.2.2 (uses surr. backs and wides and 1 pair of overheads), 7.2.4 (uses surr. back and 4 overheads), or 7.2.4 (turns off surr. back, uses wides and 4 overheads). I believe the big appeal of the X7200 is that it will let you choose various combos for various surround modes. So it is very flexible (as it should be for a flagship unit). Bottom line, while it has 13 speaker outputs, only 11 are usable at a time and it is up to you to decide which combination you want to go. There is a whole thread dedicated to this receiver that should answer all your questions. Hope this helps. Semper Fi! :)


Eric
 

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The easiest way to see a general comparison of 18's is looking at the xmax and then the power handling. The HST18's are close to twice as much bass as the cheaper subs, but need more power too. You probably can't find 2x18 flatpacks because that would be too heavy to ship. Even a single 18 flatpack is like 100 pounds. Also in a room that size you should go ported, not sealed, unless you really want that 5-10 hz stuff.

For the Denon X7200, yes you can connect 13 speakers at one time, however it only has 11 channel processing, meaning you can only use 11 speakers at once. It's so you can switch between two different "configurations" of 11 speakers. "This system, which is based on a 5.1-channel system, plays back up to 11.1-channels at the same time.
You can connect speakers for up to 13-channels for MAIN ZONE by using an external power amplifier. When you connect speakers for 12 or more channels, the output speakers automatically switch according to the input signal and sound mode."
 

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I owned the 1099s 3 of them. There's awesome speakers idk what size restrictions you have or the size of the room. But I would do 1299s if you can cause you can make them a litter bigger make them go a little lower. But the 1099s are a great speaker. Dynamic pretty loud. Just didn't have enough midbass for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The easiest way to see a general comparison of 18's is looking at the xmax and then the power handling. The HST18's are close to twice as much bass as the cheaper subs, but need more power too. You probably can't find 2x18 flatpacks because that would be too heavy to ship. Even a single 18 flatpack is like 100 pounds. Also in a room that size you should go ported, not sealed, unless you really want that 5-10 hz stuff.
That brings up another question: I've read thru the sticky, and a couple of the resources on ported/sealed/horn, and still don't understand the difference. I've been leaning towards sealed because it looks like it'll be easier to place/tune the room with multiple sealed (4 behind screen, 2 on opposite end of room), but don't pretend to understand any other logic of one vs. the other?
Speaking of cabinet design: Is it a religious battle to ask about built-in vs. rack amps? When I wired the room I ran 2x COAX and speaker wire to behind the stage. I'm leaning towards building 4x 18" sealed cabinets, installing 2 rack amps, and splitting the COAX with a y-splitter. Any better suggestions?

For the Denon X7200, yes you can connect 13 speakers at one time, however it only has 11 channel processing, meaning you can only use 11 speakers at once. It's so you can switch between two different "configurations" of 11 speakers. "This system, which is based on a 5.1-channel system, plays back up to 11.1-channels at the same time.
You can connect speakers for up to 13-channels for MAIN ZONE by using an external power amplifier. When you connect speakers for 12 or more channels, the output speakers automatically switch according to the input signal and sound mode."
So, that's the exact page I refer to in the manual when I say it'll handle all 13 channels for me. Am I misreading that, and it won't actually do it?
Looking at the diagram, to me it seems to show that adding an external amp for the last 2 ceiling speakers allows:
LCR + FWL&FWR
4 surrounds
4 ceiling
Sub out
What am I missing?
 
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