[Tryg]

tommyboy2 I have to ask you why resorted to personal attacks against Ken_Lennon in this post http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/006920.html


That is not the job of the moderator, and personnally I'm appalled that that a moderator would violate the rules of this forum.


If you do not agree with someone OK, but don't rule with an Iron fist! Also just because you bought one of Shawns products does not mean you need to defend it past its merits.



Ive said this this before and I'm sure I'll say it again.


"If you are going to use this forum as a marketing mechanism for you business expect the worst!"


Shawn clearly used this forum for his own means as a marketing tool for development of a new product(which he will make money off of) The half dozen or more false promises of delivery etc should be highly criticized! Anybody with a clear mind should know that.

If every manufacturer used this meathod, the products and scams out there would be enormous. So please, develop your product then talk about it, duh...


Check the HD harware forum for 169 Time. Do we want more of this?



Stop defending Shawn and Cygnus. He deserves what he gets when he takes the risk of using a forum like this, then not following through.


tommyboy2 you should reopen that post and appologize!

 

[Jim Tittle]



I completely support what Tom did in the other thread. there is a way to make critical comments without resorting to newsgroup style posting. The troll post which started that thread offered nothing of value for this forum, and I am glad the thread was closed.


I think I speak for many of the original Panamorph prebuy customers when I say that we understood we were trading off a GREAT price for the trials and tribulations of the product development process. Although it took longer than I ever expected, if the Panamorph works as well as the early comments seem to indicate, I for one will be a happy customer.

 

[AlMark]

Tryg, I think you are wrong in accusing tommyboy2 of personal attacks - he only inferred that Ken_Lennon must have a reading disorder because a person who followed all the threads would know the inherent difficulties of creating a state-of-the-art product in such a short time. I have benefitted from learning from all the experienced people in these forums, and when someone calls someone a "clown" and accuses them of running a scam when they themselves have no background or knowledge (or even previous posts), I know who is the one who is mature and worth dealing with. A signature proclaiming his supposed abilities makes me wonder when he grew up, too.


Al

 

[Randall Morton]

I agree with Mr. Wiggles. Shawn stated over a week ago that they were done, all he had to do was put the finishing touches on and they would be shipped. Where is the first batch. What is the hold up now?

 

[REF]

Ok Shawn,


If your reading this and you've got 50 or more, where's mine?



------------------

--Bob

 

[Tryg]

Quote:

Originally posted by AlMark: Tryg, I think you are wrong in accusing tommyboy2 of personal attacks Al

Al, if I replied to one of your posts and called you a troll in the first sentence, would you think it is a personal attack?

 

[jnissen]

I also agree with Mr. Wiggles.


My question is "Has any one got there Panamorphs other than Jeff or Tommyboy?"


------------------

Jim Nissen

 

[Chris Satterlee]

I didn't like Ken_Lennon's post and I don't think personal attacks have any place on this forum. HOWEVER, I don't think closing the thread was the right thing to do. I understand that this is a sponsored, moderated forum, but one of its reason's for success is its lack of censorship. I totally agree that competitors' advertisement posts should be removed, but I think that customer opinions should be given more latitude.


The way the Panamorph has been developed with the help of this forum's members is unique, and we may end up being studied in business classes someday as being precedent-setting. I believe, however, that it will only end up being a success if the channels are open for negative as well as positive feedback. Shawn needs to know that there are some people who are very unhappy with the delays (to the point of making inappropriate posts). This is good for him, and good for us all in the long run. If all he sees are the posts by people that encourage him to take all the time he needs to make the Panamorph perfect, then he is getting a skewed view of his customers.


- Chris

 

[JoeFloyd]

Now that we are in the home stretch, it would be terrible to have the Panamorph experience spoiled by a few comments that come out of frustration.


Of course, valid criticisms can be made, but as suggested by more than one forum member, if anyone is tired of waiting sell your spot in line. There are two offers on the table right now. And, it has always be possible to ask for a refund. Or how about giving your lens to charity. Otherwise, give Shawn and Cygnus the credit they are due and be happy that there is a company that stills believes in giving the customer what they want.

 

[tommyboy2]

Well obviously I went over board in trying to calm a few people down who emailed because they felt insulted by Ken's (first) post. Tryg, I truly apologize if you found my comments insulting. I do think that the person who posted it was looking to start a flame war, but I should not have reacted with some of the comments I made.


Having said that, I do think you fundamentally misunderstand the difference between the Panamorph project and 169time. AVS and Cygnus have been partners in bringing this product to market from the beginning and 169time has never been endorsed by AVS. So the use of AVS by Shawn has not been any violation whatsoever IMO - if anything I wished he'd have used it more as the two-week updates weren't enough for me at times.


It has been a long and admittedly bumpy road that hopefully will result in folks being happy that they took a chance on a product that they wanted and directly contributed in bringing to market. But make no mistake about it - Shawn brought this to market at the request of AVS forum members, so lets not paint him as some con-artist that came here to take our money.


As per Wiggles suggestion that the discussion should continue might I suggest we start a new thread with some constructive dialogue about the overall Panamorph project - the lags, the design changes, the broken promises, the successes, etc. If done without calling people "clowns" (or Trolls for that matter http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif )and making them feel like they have been duped somehow it could be good for us to discover what we've learned.


Tom

 

[anson]

Well, Ken's trolling defintely got me to respond. I think his original post was uncalled for and I fully support tommyboy's action. I used what restraint I could to not actually reply in kind but to try and make out his post to be the troll that it is.

 

[Tryg]

Thanks tommy. I wasn't offended, but I do think if you're going to be a cop or moderator you should be god like(in a good way of course)


As far as 169time goes I just think it would be a shame for this forum to see more and more products that don't deliver as stated. This forum should be the the first place for people to expose BS and accept the highest of standards. If you make one mistake by saying something is gonna be so, then realize that it's not gonna happen, at least recognize this and don't do it again!


Although I did not purchase the panamorph, I am a little disheartened why anyone who would continue to string people on or offer false hope.


I'm not saying Shawn is a crook or anything, and in retrospect I'm sure even he would have done many things different, I am saying use some common sense to preserve your credibility.


I hope these guys get thier Panamorph soon, so we can all start dealing with fact not fantasy.

 

[Martin P]

Very good come back tommyboy2. It just brought the temp down and now might not boil over. I have been on this Panny ride as long as anyone and for the most part have like the drama. I just have never been able to understand the almost childlike defense of Shawn. God when someone says they have product ready to ship(which he has done more than once)and then does not ship we deserve an explanation. This taking us to the edge and then seemingly forgetting all about it in his future posts is the one thing that makes me nervous about getting a Panamorph. Or it could be that I have just read to many Ebay scams from the Robert Wood. Where are the 50?

 

[arrow]

Fully agree with Tommyboy. That thread was a troll, plain and simple, and deserved to be closed.


If someone wants to start a thread about how disappointed they are with the panamorph project, then fine. This is not Usenet. Here, we can discuss topics like adults.


--Les

 

[Jeff Smith]

I agree with everyone that the moderator can close the thread, but I agree strongly with Tryg that Tommyboy2 spoke in exactly the same "name-calling" childish tones. His subsequent apology is well recieved. The moderators shouldn't stoop as low as the offender, simply state the thread is closed and the reasons....we are striving for quality here aren't we?


By the way, would the thread still have been closed if Ken had used polite, business-like phrases to ask the same questions and state the same general opinion of Shawn's handling of this? I would like to think it was his animosity which closed the thread, not his questioning of the many broken "two week" promises.


Just for the record I have a panamorph on pre-buy and I don't want my money back.




------------------

Jeff

Currently - Zenith 7" CRT, 80x60 1.3 gain screen


Soon to be - 107x60 1.3 gain...with ?Seleco 250 with Panamorph or "cheap" 9" CRT


[This message has been edited by Jeff Smith (edited 06-25-2001).]

 

[Mad Chemist]

Quote:

AVS and Cygnus have been partners

I think that says alot. If people were bagging on Panasonic, NEC or whatever, I don't think the thread would have been locked. But because you feel you have a personal relationship with Cygnus/Shawn, we can't be allowed to voice our negative opinions. If Shawn's feelings were hurt (I doubt they were), then he shouldn't have started the project. Negative opinions come with the territory.


------------------

Greg


[This message has been edited by Mad Chemist (edited 06-25-2001).]

 

[tommyboy2]



Originally posted by Jeff Smith:
By the way, would the thread still have been closed if Ken had used polite, business-like phrases to ask the same questions and state the same general opinion of Shawn's handling of this? I would like to think it was his animosity which closed the thread, not his questioning of the many broken "two week" promises.


Thanks Jeff. It absolutely was his uninformed anomosity that closed it and not the questioning of "broken promises". As evidence of that I suggested in my apology post above that a new thread be created to constructively discuss the issues.


Tom

 

[tommyboy2]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Chemist: I think that says alot. If people were bagging on Panasonic, NEC or whatever, I don't think the thread would have been locked. But because you feel you have a personal relationship with Cygnus/Shawn, we can't be allowed to voice our negative opinions. If Shawn's feelings were hurt (I doubt they were), then he shouldn't have started the project. Negative opinions come with the territory.

You've quoted me out of context - I was merely trying to point out to Tryg that the 169time and Cygnus projects are very different. As I have said above, there is no issue with openly complaining or even criticizing if it is done constructively and without name calling.


Tom

 

[Alan Gouger]

Theres a big difference between 169 and Cygnus.

Cygnus has been posting updates on a weekly or by weekly basis even if it is not good news. He has also delivered prototype product to last couple of consumer shows as well as providing a couple of forum members with a first generation version. I can also E mail Shawn and get an answer in a timely fashion.


On the other hand..I sent an email to 169 asking what was going on as a follow up for forum members and to date ( 3weeks) still have no answer. I hope people legally go after them. They deserve everything they have coming to them.


It has also provided a learning curve in that I will never allow a manufacture to bring to market and collect money on this forum again unless it is done in a upfront way with providing contact phone numbers and regular posting. Shawn spent money out of his own pocket to fly in and meet AVS and a few others and showed a prototype. I felt very comfortable after our meeting. Shawn handled this in a very classy way and has been upfront and honest with everything to this day!


At least he has a web site that works!!!


------------------

Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com


[This message has been edited by Alan Gouger (edited 06-25-2001).]

 

[JoeFloyd]

I've been in on the Panamorph from close to day 1. I've also pre-paid for the Pananmorph II. There is no doubt in my mind that Shawn is a stand up guy who has the desire and the knowledge to produce a world class product. Much of my confidence comes from the detailed updates that Shawn has made as the project has moved forward, sideways, and even backwards at times. Often this has not painted the best picture, but the process of creation is messy. Perhaps the peek behind the curtain to see the great and powerful OZ at work is too much for some, but it's been a pleasure for me.


It's also worth noting that all along, if the choice was between something quick and dirty or a something that may require more time but would achieve higher quality, Shawn has chosen quality. Each time this was done, it was done with the support of the forum. In fact, the recent P752 redesign is just one of many such redesigns. If you notice how many people voted for the new design knowing that it would add time to the delivery date, I think you get a sense of how committed to quality this process has been.


Without a doubt it's been a bumpy road at times. If anyone would care to read the archives, I'm sure you will find more than a few negative post about the delays. But you will be hard pressed to find anything at all disparaging about the motives or knowledge of Shawn Kelly or Cygnus Imaging. Simply put, we are all grown-ups and as such we are all expected to behave ourselves in public.