not trying to open a can of worms here, but after paying $5.50/ft for audioquest rocket 33 to go to my L, R, And CTR channel B&W speakers, many experts on here feel like I paid way too much. Sighting Monoline and others I could have paid a frraction of the cost of what my B&W dealer sold me. Stating that my "system is only good as its weakest link". He would have sold me stuff that costs twice that much, if I didnt put my foot down. I'm ashamed to admit what I paid for HDMI. For 2 channel listening, anyone have an opinion of what is good wire? or a waste of money?
Too Much For Wire?
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If you spent more on room treatments then you did on cables then maybe its not that important but if you are actually trying to create the best setup possible then you are focusing $$ on the wrong things.
Think of it this way. If you put $1000 on the table betting there is a difference between that $5.50/ft cable and the $1/ft cable. you would lose that money in a controlled listening test
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You are aware that $5.50/ft cable isn't even really the expensive stuff. If you really think it matters and you honestly believe there is an relationship between cable $$$ and SQ then just think of what your system would sound like with with $50/ft cables.
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If you spent more on room treatments then you did on cables then maybe its not that important but if you are actually trying to create the best setup possible then you are focusing $$ on the wrong things.
Think of it this way. If you put $1000 on the table betting there is a difference between that $5.50/ft cable and the $1/ft cable. you would lose that money in a controlled listening test
You are aware that $5.50/ft cable isn't even really the expensive stuff. If you really think it matters and you honestly believe there is an relationship between cable $$$ and SQ then just think of what your system would sound like with with $50/ft cables.
Well I only use the same wire stock that is used in top recording studios and video mastering facilities. Nothing else is good enough for my HT system.
Lets' see, retail cost:
Video cable $0.35 per foot.
12ga Speaker wire: $0.41 per foot
digital audio cable: $0.20 per foot
50' HDMI prebuilt cable $64
Lets' see, retail cost:
Video cable $0.35 per foot.
12ga Speaker wire: $0.41 per foot
digital audio cable: $0.20 per foot
50' HDMI prebuilt cable $64
PennGray, I appreciate your Logic. I broke the bank to buy these speakers. (which I thought were the best quality I could afford). The dealer had lots of speaker options and resons with molecules/atoms talk that went over my head. We settled on this wire, which again was the most I could afford. My question is: is there a difference in quality of wire that costs more or not? how much of it is marketing? Do you have a solution if I take the wire back to save $$?
It is highly unlikely you will hear any difference from your $5.50/foot speaker wire and speaker wire from Home Depot.
You're probably more polite than me but I would tell your audio sales person that if they knew that much about electrical engineering, they woudn't have to sell home stereo equipment to make a living!
Here:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
It is highly unlikely you will hear any difference from your $5.50/foot speaker wire and speaker wire from Home Depot.
You're probably more polite than me but I would tell your audio sales person that if they knew that much about electrical engineering, they woudn't have to sell home stereo equipment to make a living!
Here:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
No matter what you buy, that is never a good way to make a purchase.
There has never been a direct correlation to $$$ = performance in anything. There is always some product in the same category that will cost less and perform the same. Its how the business world works. Every company has different margins, different market segments they are focusing on.
I suspect that sales guy if on commision made a good profit of you because of that.
The cable business is purely a HUGE profit margin business. Meaning, you are not remotely getting your $$$ worth in SQ improvement if you are focusing/worrying about expensive cable.
No matter what you buy, that is never a good way to make a purchase.
There has never been a direct correlation to $$$ = performance in anything. There is always some product in the same category that will cost less and perform the same. Its how the business world works. Every company has different margins, different market segments they are focusing on.
I suspect that sales guy if on commision made a good profit of you because of that.
The cable business is purely a HUGE profit margin business. Meaning, you are not remotely getting your $$$ worth in SQ improvement if you are focusing/worrying about expensive cable.
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That tired old Russel thread is how old now? A lot has happened in the last 30 years. The "testing" he did was pretty suspicious anyway. Didn't he poop out some crappy speakers for a while?
The Audioquest wire won't turn green like the Home Depot crap will. Some people say that is ok, "it still sounds good to me!"
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This is pretty much an anti-cable forum anyway, so most opinions here are pretty biased. You really haven't spent that much to get quality cable, I think you did ok.
No, you won't be able to pick out the Audioquest from the Home Depot in a blind test. Nor would you be able to pick out differences in amps, CD players, or lots of other gear. Doesn't mean you made a poor choice on those components either, and it doesn't mean there isn't a real sonic difference.
People really need to relax on the cable topic.
And I think you did open a can of worms, but that is ok. Flames in 3, 2, 1.....
The Audioquest wire won't turn green like the Home Depot crap will. Some people say that is ok, "it still sounds good to me!"
This is pretty much an anti-cable forum anyway, so most opinions here are pretty biased. You really haven't spent that much to get quality cable, I think you did ok.
No, you won't be able to pick out the Audioquest from the Home Depot in a blind test. Nor would you be able to pick out differences in amps, CD players, or lots of other gear. Doesn't mean you made a poor choice on those components either, and it doesn't mean there isn't a real sonic difference.
People really need to relax on the cable topic.
And I think you did open a can of worms, but that is ok. Flames in 3, 2, 1.....
Actually Roger wrote that since 1995. But it doesn't matter. Know physics and electrical engineering cited here is far older than that - at least 100 years. That's how long the engineering community knew expensive speaker wire is a scam - even before it was introduced in the early 1980s.
The OP is a classic but sadly too often told example of how an honest person was scammed by the home AV industry. And it's not always the sales person's fault. Afterall they are not highly skilled in any technology, that's why they sell stereo equipment. They too can get caught up in all the hype due to lack of formal engineering education.
Actually Roger wrote that since 1995. But it doesn't matter. Know physics and electrical engineering cited here is far older than that - at least 100 years. That's how long the engineering community knew expensive speaker wire is a scam - even before it was introduced in the early 1980s.
The OP is a classic but sadly too often told example of how an honest person was scammed by the home AV industry. And it's not always the sales person's fault. Afterall they are not highly skilled in any technology, that's why they sell stereo equipment. They too can get caught up in all the hype due to lack of formal engineering education.
This is a science forum first actually hence the logical replies. You can either understand some science or..
You can ignore the common sense of how business are run and what profit margins exist in the cable business... large profit margin simply means no real benefit in increased SQ. The larger the profit margin the bigger waste of $$$.
You can ignore the simple fact that spending $$$ on room treatments, proper setup/design is far, far, far more important then wasting your very last penny on cables. Heck, the OP could have purchased more content to enjoy (BDs or whatever) then the extra $$ on cables.
Some people work to hard for their money and we are here to help them MAXIMIZE their $$ by explaining what is important. What is your intent? I doubt you care what the guy spends money on actually.
Roger Russells data is just as meaningful today. You know that the science about copper has been around for sometime. Its not like anything new has been proven in the past 20 years and that link isnt more then 10 years old (I thought)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 /forum/post/18156328
That tired old Russel thread is how old now? A lot has happened in the last 30 years. The "testing" he did was pretty suspicious anyway. Didn't he poop out some crappy speakers for a while?
The Audioquest wire won't turn green like the Home Depot crap will. Some people say that is ok, "it still sounds good to me!"![]()
This is pretty much an anti-cable forum anyway, so most opinions here are pretty biased. You really haven't spent that much to get quality cable, I think you did ok.
No, you won't be able to pick out the Audioquest from the Home Depot in a blind test. Nor would you be able to pick out differences in amps, CD players, or lots of other gear. Doesn't mean you made a poor choice on those components either, and it doesn't mean there isn't a real sonic difference.
People really need to relax on the cable topic.
And I think you did open a can of worms, but that is ok. Flames in 3, 2, 1.....
This is a science forum first actually hence the logical replies. You can either understand some science or..
You can ignore the common sense of how business are run and what profit margins exist in the cable business... large profit margin simply means no real benefit in increased SQ. The larger the profit margin the bigger waste of $$$.
You can ignore the simple fact that spending $$$ on room treatments, proper setup/design is far, far, far more important then wasting your very last penny on cables. Heck, the OP could have purchased more content to enjoy (BDs or whatever) then the extra $$ on cables.
Some people work to hard for their money and we are here to help them MAXIMIZE their $$ by explaining what is important. What is your intent? I doubt you care what the guy spends money on actually.
Roger Russells data is just as meaningful today. You know that the science about copper has been around for sometime. Its not like anything new has been proven in the past 20 years and that link isnt more then 10 years old (I thought)
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Agreed, you don't have to spend big to get decent cable.
The cable business isn't PURELY profit. Not everyone offering upscale cable is trying to rip you off. You do have to be aware that some companies are trying to gouge you, no matter what the product is. Audioquest makes some good products for the money, they also make stuff that are aimed at people with more money than brains.
But what you said here is pretty sage advice, penngray, basically buyer beware.
Agreed, you don't have to spend big to get decent cable.
The cable business isn't PURELY profit. Not everyone offering upscale cable is trying to rip you off. You do have to be aware that some companies are trying to gouge you, no matter what the product is. Audioquest makes some good products for the money, they also make stuff that are aimed at people with more money than brains.
But what you said here is pretty sage advice, penngray, basically buyer beware.
Decide for yourself my man. The cheap stuff all the tight-wads here use is just that, cheap ... so easy enough to try some out. Get REAL familiar with a few tracks over a weeks time or so, then swap out to some other cheap "AVSforum approved" cable and get real familiar again. What you hear is all that matters.
Personally I don't use 'expensive' cable, but I don't use cheap zip line either. What ends up staying in a system only stays there after trying out a few different combinations. The differences are subtle, but real enough. The thing is there's no absolute good or bad, just what works given the specifics.
Tell us more about your system and the room that it's in ... pics would be great too.
Personally I don't use 'expensive' cable, but I don't use cheap zip line either. What ends up staying in a system only stays there after trying out a few different combinations. The differences are subtle, but real enough. The thing is there's no absolute good or bad, just what works given the specifics.
Tell us more about your system and the room that it's in ... pics would be great too.
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I am in manufacturing, I get it. I live and breathe logic, reason... and profit.
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Agreed, cable should be one of the last things you upgrade. The OP started off with good cable, though, and now he has no need to upgrade for now, those cables should suffice. The focus on cables is over rated compared to tuning your room, proper stands, resonance control, proper setup ( if you didn't employ a tape measure, level, and basic knowledge of acoustics, AT LEAST, you probably don't have a proper setup). Maybe after giving attention to these matters, he can try, and possibly hear, cable differences that will matter in his system.
That data is just as biased as the pro cable data. Quality in cables matters as it does in any other part of the chain.
I am in manufacturing, I get it. I live and breathe logic, reason... and profit.
Agreed, cable should be one of the last things you upgrade. The OP started off with good cable, though, and now he has no need to upgrade for now, those cables should suffice. The focus on cables is over rated compared to tuning your room, proper stands, resonance control, proper setup ( if you didn't employ a tape measure, level, and basic knowledge of acoustics, AT LEAST, you probably don't have a proper setup). Maybe after giving attention to these matters, he can try, and possibly hear, cable differences that will matter in his system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/18156397
Roger Russells data is just as meaningful today. You know that the science about copper has been around for sometime. Its not like anything new has been proven in the past 20 years and that link isnt more then 10 years old (I thought)![]()
That data is just as biased as the pro cable data. Quality in cables matters as it does in any other part of the chain.
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Ha ha, +1
I think I can tell the difference even between my cheaper cables, even in car stereo applications. Cable differences are part of what drew me into this hobby.
Cable differences are system dependent, so trying out a few kinds should be a prerequisite. Interconnects are often over looked and can make a much larger difference than speaker cables do.
Ha ha, +1
I think I can tell the difference even between my cheaper cables, even in car stereo applications. Cable differences are part of what drew me into this hobby.
Cable differences are system dependent, so trying out a few kinds should be a prerequisite. Interconnects are often over looked and can make a much larger difference than speaker cables do.
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I know a few salesmen/owners that have engineering degrees. To make such an outrageous blanket statement to back up your claims is just, well, outrageous! A knowledgeable, caring salesman has waaaay more experience with various rooms, systems and setups than most wannabe hifi "experts" in this forum.
Roger Russel cites McIntosh's Gordon Gow (and his suspicious, poorly conducted test) as an example of an anti-cable icon. Did you know that there is a cable company that is dedicated to Gordon, and they sell biwire cables!
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http://www.tributariescable.com/about/history.cfm
Too funnee.
I know a few salesmen/owners that have engineering degrees. To make such an outrageous blanket statement to back up your claims is just, well, outrageous! A knowledgeable, caring salesman has waaaay more experience with various rooms, systems and setups than most wannabe hifi "experts" in this forum.
Roger Russel cites McIntosh's Gordon Gow (and his suspicious, poorly conducted test) as an example of an anti-cable icon. Did you know that there is a cable company that is dedicated to Gordon, and they sell biwire cables!
Too funnee.
Roger lists his life expereince and education. He was an engineering director at one of the most prestigious audio manufactures for almost his entire career. I don't see that on Audioquests or any other esoteric manufactures site - at least not of which can be traced.
Furthermore as I always point out, professional users such as recording studios and video mastering facilities as well as broadcast do not use any of these esoteric cables. WHY? Surely at the cost of that equipment a $1000 interconnect cable or power cord is not significant price wise. I know because I build such facilities and have done so for 25 years.
Now be careful here. many posters like you clalim the major studios and record labels don't give a damn about quality and that's why they use cheap cables. But if that's true, then the video you watch and music you listen to has already been compromised by cheap cables. So whats the point in expensive cables at the ass end of the whole chain? The point is the quality standards are very high. And so are the employment standards. They hire real electrical engineers to design their systems who understand the engineering behind signal transmission.
P.S. Please also don't show me some magazine add where Monster Cable built out a home studio for BritneySpears using their products. Anybody can figure that deal out.
Roger lists his life expereince and education. He was an engineering director at one of the most prestigious audio manufactures for almost his entire career. I don't see that on Audioquests or any other esoteric manufactures site - at least not of which can be traced.
Furthermore as I always point out, professional users such as recording studios and video mastering facilities as well as broadcast do not use any of these esoteric cables. WHY? Surely at the cost of that equipment a $1000 interconnect cable or power cord is not significant price wise. I know because I build such facilities and have done so for 25 years.
Now be careful here. many posters like you clalim the major studios and record labels don't give a damn about quality and that's why they use cheap cables. But if that's true, then the video you watch and music you listen to has already been compromised by cheap cables. So whats the point in expensive cables at the ass end of the whole chain? The point is the quality standards are very high. And so are the employment standards. They hire real electrical engineers to design their systems who understand the engineering behind signal transmission.
P.S. Please also don't show me some magazine add where Monster Cable built out a home studio for BritneySpears using their products. Anybody can figure that deal out.
OK a "few". But for the most part stereo store sales people are right up there with car sales people.
So what is wrong with the test as described? I already know the answer as I have heard it several times before. "The relay boxes are of poor quality and mask the differences between the wires". Did I get it right? Why not show us some accredited, repeatable data that backs up these expensive cable claims and not the typical "golden ears"? I have yet to see any. But there's plenty of hard scientific data that proves these claims are hogwash.
And Pamala Gow was Gordens wife who owned a stereo store chain. She started tributaries after Gorden's death. And Tributraries are not that bad. They are fairly honest with their claims and specs as far as I have seen. A far cry from that junk science in the Audioquest brochure.
And also note that Roger Russle uses Cardas wire in his new tower speakers. And he explains very well why he does. It's for people like you that believe in the wire myth. He's not at all stupid. He's not going to argue with a potential customer.
OK a "few". But for the most part stereo store sales people are right up there with car sales people.
Quote:
Roger Russel cites McIntosh's Gordon Gow (and his suspicious, poorly conducted test) as an example of an anti-cable icon. Did you know that there is a cable company that is dedicated to Gordon, and they sell biwire cables!http://www.tributariescable.com/about/history.cfm![]()
Too funnee.
So what is wrong with the test as described? I already know the answer as I have heard it several times before. "The relay boxes are of poor quality and mask the differences between the wires". Did I get it right? Why not show us some accredited, repeatable data that backs up these expensive cable claims and not the typical "golden ears"? I have yet to see any. But there's plenty of hard scientific data that proves these claims are hogwash.
And Pamala Gow was Gordens wife who owned a stereo store chain. She started tributaries after Gorden's death. And Tributraries are not that bad. They are fairly honest with their claims and specs as far as I have seen. A far cry from that junk science in the Audioquest brochure.
And also note that Roger Russle uses Cardas wire in his new tower speakers. And he explains very well why he does. It's for people like you that believe in the wire myth. He's not at all stupid. He's not going to argue with a potential customer.
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So was Amar Bose.. What you are saying is that Gordon was THE expert on sound, and NO ONE making cables is. The information is there, if one cares to research it, in answer to your claim of not seeing professional credentials on any cable site.
I am a musician, I have mastered 8 different instruments, and have sat right next to many more... live, along with vocal, and music theory. So what. My ears are no better than yours... and vice versa.
Pro audio is a whole 'nother animal compared to what is experienced or needed in a domestic situation.
Is most of the work you do contracted at a price meant to undercut the competition? Cheap cables help to bring down costs, but those that care will spring for them. Studios are a business too, and many have pretty lousy gear and practices. "I was an audiophile until I found out what they were doing in the studio!" LOL.
Not anywhere CLOSE to the truth. Here is but one example of the technological tour de force you are trying to amaze us with. http://www.mitcables.co.nz/mit-at-the-movies.html Are those B&W speakers?!? Lets face it, this is only one example.
Ok, then please don't make blanket statements, and I will spare us all.
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So was Amar Bose.. What you are saying is that Gordon was THE expert on sound, and NO ONE making cables is. The information is there, if one cares to research it, in answer to your claim of not seeing professional credentials on any cable site.
I am a musician, I have mastered 8 different instruments, and have sat right next to many more... live, along with vocal, and music theory. So what. My ears are no better than yours... and vice versa.
Pro audio is a whole 'nother animal compared to what is experienced or needed in a domestic situation.
Is most of the work you do contracted at a price meant to undercut the competition? Cheap cables help to bring down costs, but those that care will spring for them. Studios are a business too, and many have pretty lousy gear and practices. "I was an audiophile until I found out what they were doing in the studio!" LOL.
Not anywhere CLOSE to the truth. Here is but one example of the technological tour de force you are trying to amaze us with. http://www.mitcables.co.nz/mit-at-the-movies.html Are those B&W speakers?!? Lets face it, this is only one example.
Ok, then please don't make blanket statements, and I will spare us all.
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