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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry for the repost, but I wanted to get as much feedback on these as possible. Admin, please feel free to nuke my response on this thread if you feel that the repost is unwarranted:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...01#post2132001


I am starting to wonder if perhaps the fact that I have been enjoying HDTV on a 36" direct view for the last 3-4 years is causing me NOT to have the same appreciation for the picture on my brand new HLN617W. Thus far I have not been happily surprised with ANY input source on ANY of the tv's inputs.


Here is a list of the things that I find as "issues" on my set:


1.) Color banding... also known as "clay faces". I've seen it on DVDs such as Spiderman and ATOC, Final Fantasy and others as well as HD programming on HDNET, NBC OTA and CBS OTA.


2.) Sparkles/Twinkles/Screen Effect issue. Sitting 14 feet back from this screen, I would've thought that screen door would be practically impossible to see. I don't have eagle eyes by any stretch of the imagination, but find this a little distracting. What is VERY distracting is the twinkling that is ocurring on brightly lit portions of the screen where the screen door is VERY evident and there seems to be some sort of rainbow pixel things happening. Almost prismatic as if they are reflecting light into the spaces between the pixels, i.e. the "screen door".


3.) Horrid normal DirecTV picture. We're talking VHS quality on the GOOD ones, at best. I much prefer the interlaced picture via S-video that I get on my 36" direct view with RCA DTC100 STB. FWIW, I am viewing the DirecTV via the Samsung TS-160 box over the DVI cable.


I won't mention the rainbow issues. This is something inherent in DLP displays and although I see them ocassionally, they don't distract me nearly as much as these three issues.


I don't think there is much that can be done about #3. I HOPE that #1 is curable or at least able to be attenuated through application of some service menu tweaks. #2 is the the one that worries me, since I can't figure out what the heck it is that is causing this. I don't have another DVD player or HTPC to try to view the DVDs that show the "twinkle". I am ALMOST certain that I have seen the twinkles on normal digital and HD OTA as well. It really drives me nuts.


Like I said though, I am very glad that some people who own these sets are enjoying them. Hopefully once someone runs some ColorFacts calibrations and posts their results I can tweak away most if not all of these issues.


Thanks for listening,

Jeff
 

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re: 3 - have you tried using the s-video input for D*TV. I find that my UTV going in through s-video actually looks better than the component video that my hughes e86 sends into my hln617. looks much better than my previous panny 52dl52 did for s-video input connected the same way.


i see rainbows on this set that i didn't see on the panny. but not enough to bother me.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Iceblade
Sorry for the repost, but I wanted to get as much feedback on these as possible. Admin, please feel free to nuke my response on this thread if you feel that the repost is unwarranted:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...01#post2132001


I am starting to wonder if perhaps the fact that I have been enjoying HDTV on a 36" direct view for the last 3-4 years is causing me NOT to have the same appreciation for the picture on my brand new HLN617W. Thus far I have not been happily surprised with ANY input source on ANY of the tv's inputs.


Here is a list of the things that I find as "issues" on my set:


1.) Color banding... also known as "clay faces". I've seen it on DVDs such as Spiderman and ATOC, Final Fantasy and others as well as HD programming on HDNET, NBC OTA and CBS OTA.


2.) Sparkles/Twinkles/Screen Effect issue. Sitting 14 feet back from this screen, I would've thought that screen door would be practically impossible to see. I don't have eagle eyes by any stretch of the imagination, but find this a little distracting. What is VERY distracting is the twinkling that is ocurring on brightly lit portions of the screen where the screen door is VERY evident and there seems to be some sort of rainbow pixel things happening. Almost prismatic as if they are reflecting light into the spaces between the pixels, i.e. the "screen door".


3.) Horrid normal DirecTV picture. We're talking VHS quality on the GOOD ones, at best. I much prefer the interlaced picture via S-video that I get on my 36" direct view with RCA DTC100 STB. FWIW, I am viewing the DirecTV via the Samsung TS-160 box over the DVI cable.


I won't mention the rainbow issues. This is something inherent in DLP displays and although I see them ocassionally, they don't distract me nearly as much as these three issues.


I don't think there is much that can be done about #3. I HOPE that #1 is curable or at least able to be attenuated through application of some service menu tweaks. #2 is the the one that worries me, since I can't figure out what the heck it is that is causing this. I don't have another DVD player or HTPC to try to view the DVDs that show the "twinkle". I am ALMOST certain that I have seen the twinkles on normal digital and HD OTA as well. It really drives me nuts.


Like I said though, I am very glad that some people who own these sets are enjoying them. Hopefully once someone runs some ColorFacts calibrations and posts their results I can tweak away most if not all of these issues.


Thanks for listening,

Jeff
Jeff,


It sounds like we have the same feelings on this issue. Other than the fact that the DLP allows me to fit a 46" TV in the space that used to be limited to 36" I have no appreciation for the DLP


I'll be posting my own feelings in another post in a few minutes..
 

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I think dsmith6281 may be on to something. I am also using S video to view direct TV, and the picture is very good. I notice the mpeg compression artifacts but I saw those on my 32" HDTV set as well.


Using the T160 your bypassing alot of the processing hardware in the TV that is meant to cleanup and make the video look really nice.


At least that would be my guess. I only have a HLN5065 so maybe it's just the smaller size that makes a difference...


As far as the screen effect goes I've seen that as well. For the most part it's not distracting to me, I believe it's largly there to provide the excellent anti-glare properties of the screen. Mainly what I notice is just sort of a bumpy picture distortion everyonce in a while.


Zak
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the thoughts on using the S-Vid for DirecTV. I will try this out tonight once I get home from jury duty. :rolleyes:


Obviously HD will not be all that great via S-Vid, since it will only be 480p, right? I guess I can toggle between DVI and S-Vid from the TS-160 depending on what I want to watch.


Thanks... I'll let you know the results later tonight.


Regs,

Jeff
 

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Iceblade, I have an HML717W for 4 months now, and I have none of the prob lems you mentioned.


- I play DVD using an HTPC with a VGA connection. The PQ is amazingly good - almost HD quality. People are reporting that the Bravo D1 player gives an equivalent PQ

- DirectTV SD PQ on most channels is very good - using a DVI connection from SIR TS-160

- HD (both OTA and DirectTV) quality is simply excellent - no artifacts of any kind
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Iceblade
Thanks for the thoughts on using the S-Vid for DirecTV. I will try this out tonight once I get home from jury duty. :rolleyes:


Obviously HD will not be all that great via S-Vid, since it will only be 480p, right? I guess I can toggle between DVI and S-Vid from the TS-160 depending on what I want to watch.


Thanks... I'll let you know the results later tonight.


Regs,

Jeff
I think the 160 may be the problem with the bad PQ from DirecTV. My SAT-T60 (tivo) looks 1000% (thru S-video) better SD than my 160 (DVI).
 

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On my HLM507W, I thought SD DirecTV looked much better via DVI than via S-Video. That said, it looked bad through both. I'd give the Samsung SIR-TS160 through DVI a grade of C for SD DirecTV, and the SIR-TS160 or Hughes HDVR2 through S-Video a grade of D for SD DirecTV. The source is mostly to blame here, but the TV has to share some of the blame. I literally stopped watching some of my favorite letterboxed SD shows (Farscape, Enterprise) during the months I had this TV, because they were simply too painful to watch ZOOMed. It was just ugly.
 

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Ice,


I've already tried all of those connections, though you likely will see some dramatic differences I don't think any of them will be the light at the end of the tunnel you are looking for. I tried four different SD receivers and actually had the best luck with my oldest Sony receiver. I noticed a bigger defference between IRD's than I did between input's. Since the PQ still sucked I decided to go HD and the best results I could get were with what I'm using now and that's a Zenith DTV1080 receiver set to output 720P and connected via VGA. The PQ improved dramatically with this unit over the Sony's and Hughes receivers I had been trying....I even tried the Samsung 160 via DVI and the Zenith is better. But unfortunatly it still has the problems that bother you.....just to a lesser degree than the others. As I said earlier I sold my current 437 so I bought a 36" Sony XBR as a fill in until my HLN46" arrives then I'll use the XBR in the Den. I must say that the tube TV is a breath of fresh air.....when I sit down to watch SD DirecTV now the TV simply puts a smile on my face...no more dithering, no more pixilization, color banding or rainbows......the TV simply rocks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Well, FWIW, I did try the S-Video thing out of the TS-160 and it certainly didn't look any better than the DVI connection... quite possibly worse. Color banding was HORRIBLE. Even the overlayed menus were kinda "fuzzy" looking. The thing that really freaked me out was the fact that the 4:3 frame was SQUISHED inwards. That is to say that everyone was too thin. Not sure why this is happening since I had the TV set to "normal" aspect ratio and the TS-160 set to 16:9 TV with "pillar box" viewing for 4:3. All I know is that the picture through S-Video was squished and the DVI one wasn't. Very weird.


I'll keep everyone updated on my travails.


I'm hoping to bribe at least one of the guys from work that also has a Sammy DLP to come look at this sucker and tell me if I am just on crack or if there is something really wrong with my setup.


Later,

Jeff
 

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Ummm. . . you don't want to tell your 160 that it is driving a 16x9 out the svideo- the tv is taking care of that for you- thats what it expects on that input. Set the box to 4:3 for that output, if you can.


On your other issues- I think you will probably be able to adjust the clay faces somewhat, which may also affect the background noise you see. I can't say if you will be satisfied by the results. I know that on my 507 (old guts), I went from DVDs that were just ugly to pretty damn good by using the SM tweaks. Nobody has those calibrations for the new guts yet.


Just to be clear- I do still see artifacts. But from my viewing distance they aren't that bad, and they are far outweighed by the lack of burnin, etc.


Markd
 

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do you have another dtv receiver to try?

i can't get the hughes e86 to produce as good a sd pq as my utv on this set. can't tell the difference on an sd set.


D
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by mdesmarais
Ummm. . . you don't want to tell your 160 that it is driving a 16x9 out the svideo- the tv is taking care of that for you- thats what it expects on that input. Set the box to 4:3 for that output, if you can.


On your other issues- I think you will probably be able to adjust the clay faces somewhat, which may also affect the background noise you see. I can't say if you will be satisfied by the results. I know that on my 507 (old guts), I went from DVDs that were just ugly to pretty damn good by using the SM tweaks. Nobody has those calibrations for the new guts yet.


Just to be clear- I do still see artifacts. But from my viewing distance they aren't that bad, and they are far outweighed by the lack of burnin, etc.


Markd
Mark,


Ok, I'll have to see if I can change that for the S-Video out on the TS-160. Not sure if it has individual settings for the monitor type. I'll check it out tonight. Thanks.


As for the other issues, yes, I'm still holding my breath that someone will do that damn ColorFacts stuff for the new guts already. :rolleyes:


One of these days....


Thanks for the tip. I'll let you know if that fixes my S-Vid issue.


Regs,

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by dsmith6281
do you have another dtv receiver to try?

i can't get the hughes e86 to produce as good a sd pq as my utv on this set. can't tell the difference on an sd set.


D
Yes, although I have already tried a DTC100 with this set and the picture was equally "less than desireable". I have a couple non-HD capable Hughes boxes in other rooms that I could try. Not sure if that will make a difference though, as the RCA box didn't make one.


Thanks,

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by mdesmarais
Ummm. . . you don't want to tell your 160 that it is driving a 16x9 out the svideo- the tv is taking care of that for you- thats what it expects on that input. Set the box to 4:3 for that output, if you can.



Markd
Mark,


Yep, you were correct about setting the 160 for 4:3 instead of 16:9 when I watch S-vid. Unfortunately you can't set the aspect ratio mode for the S-Vid differently than the DVi output. There is only one setting for the overall output of the 160. Thank for the tip though.


Regards,

Jeff
 

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I personally do not like these TVs, but I also don't think they are as bad as you are experience. It sounds like you need some calibration to tone down some of the aggressive crap it does to destroy the picture.


Their should be minimal-to-zero of the "clay faces" on HD. The color pallette is so rich on those sources. You might be victimized a bit by temporal dithering, but it shouldn't be brutal.


As for the sparklies, I think that's inherent to DLP on a plastic screen. It's why I don't like it in part. It's not likely screen door unless you pulled Ted Williams eyes out before he was frozen and had them transplanted.


The horrid DirecTV picture is why I canceled my order way back when, but I believe (a) the calibration will help and (b) the S-video should be better. That is unless you can get your STB to output the regular stuff at 720p instead of 1080i.


mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by mdesmarais
Jeff-


Was the picture any better? There is inherently more filtering going on with Svideo. . .


Markd
Markd,


Nope... it was truly terrible. Much worse than the DVI and the menus for the TS160 even looked a little soft and fuzzy compared to the DVI connection. :(


I'll play around with it some more this weekend when I get a chance, both through DVI and S-Vid on SD D*, OTA and HD. I'll keep everyone informed.


Later,

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
I personally do not like these TVs, but I also don't think they are as bad as you are experience. It sounds like you need some calibration to tone down some of the aggressive crap it does to destroy the picture.


Their should be minimal-to-zero of the "clay faces" on HD. The color pallette is so rich on those sources. You might be victimized a bit by temporal dithering, but it shouldn't be brutal.


As for the sparklies, I think that's inherent to DLP on a plastic screen. It's why I don't like it in part. It's not likely screen door unless you pulled Ted Williams eyes out before he was frozen and had them transplanted.


The horrid DirecTV picture is why I canceled my order way back when, but I believe (a) the calibration will help and (b) the S-video should be better. That is unless you can get your STB to output the regular stuff at 720p instead of 1080i.


mark
Mark,


Can you tell me for certain what resolution the HLN617 is displaying if you feed a 480i signal (Composite, S-Vid, Component) into the tv? I just flipped on an HD broadcast on PBs and switched between the DVI and S-Video inputs on the tv (both connected to the STB). The S-Vid was truly bad. Soft picture BIGTIME! It looked very much like what my DVD player shows when I feed the TV 480i into the Comp1 input. Seems more and more like this tv just doesn't deal well with 480i. Perhaps it's time to fire up the laptop and see if the PC input makes a DVD look any better.


Thanks,

Jeff
 
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