Toshiba 57HL83 LCoS Set
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Quote:
No one even knows IF the 57HL83 will be on the market for purchase.
Anyone who says otherwise is lying or misinformed.
The only source I'd trust at this point would be someone like Gary M.
| Originally posted by Bob Dycus Does anybody know when the 57HL83 set will be on the market for purchase? |
Anyone who says otherwise is lying or misinformed.
The only source I'd trust at this point would be someone like Gary M.
The thought that keeps me optimistic is that the 57HLX82 floated around
trade shows for more than two full years (and closer to three) before it was
put into production. Some consider that a BAD omen. But I choose to interpret
that as, "It WILL come... eventually." As long as I get my WORKING LCoS
replacement someday, then I'm not going to fret too much over how long
it takes.
trade shows for more than two full years (and closer to three) before it was
put into production. Some consider that a BAD omen. But I choose to interpret
that as, "It WILL come... eventually." As long as I get my WORKING LCoS
replacement someday, then I'm not going to fret too much over how long
it takes.
Well, Z., that's easy for you to say--you're watching a 57" 1080P display with what I think is fair to call minor flaws. Meanwhile we've moved to our new apartment, and we're watching a 32" SD TV from 12 feet away--and it will be 17 feet when we get everything unpacked.
I'm seriously considering getting a Sammy DLP. I can't wait for someday.
I'm seriously considering getting a Sammy DLP. I can't wait for someday.
zvogt,
If I remember right your issue with the 57HLX82 is a slight geometry problem that isn't overly noticable on normal viewing. I think you are also seeing the "racetrack", but only on an all-black display.
I was wondering if you have seen the racetrack other than this? A good way for me to see what is going on with my set in terms of racetrack and image retention is to switch it to the all-blue background screen that my VCR sends out. In normal viewing I can see the effect here and there on an all-black, a grey, or a light to medium blue background (some on skin tone as well). A prime suspect might be the LCoS chip that is reflecting blue light, but I don't know for sure. I have thought about hooking up my laptop and sending in pure red, green, and blue images to see what I can see.
Anyway, last night I could clearly see:
1) A clear brightness in the center of the "racetrack". On a gray display it is very clear that this is actually the pure image, while the rest of the display is being tainted with a touch of red.
2) A significant browning or redding of the racetrack itself;
3) A less-significant but completely visible browning or redding of the screen area outside of the racetrack;
4) Image retention of the "box" lines from the TiVo menu display AND of the ABC logo from the program I had been watching. Note that the TiVo menu had not been up for at least an hour at this point. Also note that I cannot see either of these image retention items during regular viewing.
My problem has gotten to the point that I can now see a weaker version of the full-blown problem as soon as the set starts up.
My net net: I'm not sure how long I can wait in uncertainty before losing my mind and jumping to something else. There is something that tells me that despite Toshiba's commitment that time could be an enemy here....
So, while the display in many respects is the best there is (to my eyes) the issues combined with uncertainty are aggravating the hell out of me.
If I remember right your issue with the 57HLX82 is a slight geometry problem that isn't overly noticable on normal viewing. I think you are also seeing the "racetrack", but only on an all-black display.
I was wondering if you have seen the racetrack other than this? A good way for me to see what is going on with my set in terms of racetrack and image retention is to switch it to the all-blue background screen that my VCR sends out. In normal viewing I can see the effect here and there on an all-black, a grey, or a light to medium blue background (some on skin tone as well). A prime suspect might be the LCoS chip that is reflecting blue light, but I don't know for sure. I have thought about hooking up my laptop and sending in pure red, green, and blue images to see what I can see.
Anyway, last night I could clearly see:
1) A clear brightness in the center of the "racetrack". On a gray display it is very clear that this is actually the pure image, while the rest of the display is being tainted with a touch of red.
2) A significant browning or redding of the racetrack itself;
3) A less-significant but completely visible browning or redding of the screen area outside of the racetrack;
4) Image retention of the "box" lines from the TiVo menu display AND of the ABC logo from the program I had been watching. Note that the TiVo menu had not been up for at least an hour at this point. Also note that I cannot see either of these image retention items during regular viewing.
My problem has gotten to the point that I can now see a weaker version of the full-blown problem as soon as the set starts up.
My net net: I'm not sure how long I can wait in uncertainty before losing my mind and jumping to something else. There is something that tells me that despite Toshiba's commitment that time could be an enemy here....
So, while the display in many respects is the best there is (to my eyes) the issues combined with uncertainty are aggravating the hell out of me.
I'm not in any hurry to rush out and buy one. I have a first generation 34" widescreen Toshiba that works very well.
I just hope that Toshiba will get the 3 chip LCoS technology fixed in time to be a 1080P replacement for the above set. I would like to see them come down in price, also, like the 34" CRT sets did.
I just hope that Toshiba will get the 3 chip LCoS technology fixed in time to be a 1080P replacement for the above set. I would like to see them come down in price, also, like the 34" CRT sets did.
I'd be willing to jump ship to a DLP set IF a 1920x1080p option were
available. A three-chip solution would be too much to hope for, because
even if it existed it would actually cost more than the LCoS I have now
I'm guessing. The other symptom that I'm seeing is the random shift
in light level. Sometimes it will jump to very dim, sometime to very bright.
It doesn't flicker often, about once per every few hours of viewing.
It just spontaneously picks a new light level, and stays there for a while
until it decides it no longer likes that level and picks a new one.
I do not have the blue flares, and my racetrack isn't as pronounced as
BTDT's, but it's definitely a cumulative thing that's getting worse with time.
BTDT is actually a good test case because his set is on hours more per
day than most. So I'm sure mine will advance to the point where his is
now eventually.
Another symptom that's never come up before now (because it's not PQ
related) is the remote control. Ever since the very very first time I ever
tried to use the remote right out of the box, it takes about 30 tries (no
exaggeration) to get any button push to respond. I long ago switched to
using the touch pad on the set itself to power it up and down, and I have
all my sources running thru other switching devices so that by the time it
gets to the display there's only one input that I ever need to use.
The problem with the remote is not the batteries, and it's not the remote
itself, because I can program it to operate other equipment and then it
works fine. I'm guessing that the IR sensor in my set itself is positioned
in an inaccessible location so it becomes almost impossible to find that
EXACT angle that the remote must be at in order to hit the target.
I've stood 18" in front of the set and pointed the remote at every possible
square inch of the front of the set at every possible angle, and it's still
about a 1 in 30 success rate on pushing any given button. Weird huh?
available. A three-chip solution would be too much to hope for, because
even if it existed it would actually cost more than the LCoS I have now
I'm guessing. The other symptom that I'm seeing is the random shift
in light level. Sometimes it will jump to very dim, sometime to very bright.
It doesn't flicker often, about once per every few hours of viewing.
It just spontaneously picks a new light level, and stays there for a while
until it decides it no longer likes that level and picks a new one.
I do not have the blue flares, and my racetrack isn't as pronounced as
BTDT's, but it's definitely a cumulative thing that's getting worse with time.
BTDT is actually a good test case because his set is on hours more per
day than most. So I'm sure mine will advance to the point where his is
now eventually.
Another symptom that's never come up before now (because it's not PQ
related) is the remote control. Ever since the very very first time I ever
tried to use the remote right out of the box, it takes about 30 tries (no
exaggeration) to get any button push to respond. I long ago switched to
using the touch pad on the set itself to power it up and down, and I have
all my sources running thru other switching devices so that by the time it
gets to the display there's only one input that I ever need to use.
The problem with the remote is not the batteries, and it's not the remote
itself, because I can program it to operate other equipment and then it
works fine. I'm guessing that the IR sensor in my set itself is positioned
in an inaccessible location so it becomes almost impossible to find that
EXACT angle that the remote must be at in order to hit the target.
I've stood 18" in front of the set and pointed the remote at every possible
square inch of the front of the set at every possible angle, and it's still
about a 1 in 30 success rate on pushing any given button. Weird huh?
Actually no, I haven't tried programming another remote.
But I'm satisfied that it's not a range problem. The remote
can hit other targets from far away and at any angle, and
it won't hit the tv even if I'm just a few feet away.
But the TV does have a control input jack on the back if the
set, and my A/V receiver has a couple control output jacks.
I had meant to connect those two and see if that would work
the way I'm hoping, but I didn't have a wire long enough at
the time, and that experiment had completely slipped my mind
in the meantime. Maybe I'll stop by RadioShack tonight and
pick one up, see if I can control it that way.
But I'm satisfied that it's not a range problem. The remote
can hit other targets from far away and at any angle, and
it won't hit the tv even if I'm just a few feet away.
But the TV does have a control input jack on the back if the
set, and my A/V receiver has a couple control output jacks.
I had meant to connect those two and see if that would work
the way I'm hoping, but I didn't have a wire long enough at
the time, and that experiment had completely slipped my mind
in the meantime. Maybe I'll stop by RadioShack tonight and
pick one up, see if I can control it that way.
Zac,
It sounds like your remote problem is another bug with the set itself. My guess would be that the IR sensor on your set either has a problem or is not installed correctly (i.e. it is not entirely seated within the window and thus misses much of the IR signal). Either could be an easy fix.
Your light up/down and sometimes-flicker problem is something that I saw for the first 2 months I had my set. In my case switching out the original delivered bulb for the spare bulb completely fixed the problem plus gave me (and continues to give me) a much much brighter picture. I was wondering about this back when you said your set was hard to watch when laying on the couch. I think if you had a properly lighted bulb this would not be a problem.
Of course, this also leads to speculation as to whether my "very bright" bulb is somehow contributing to the onset of my extreme racetrack problem, or perhaps is just making it much easier to see.
I certainly wouldn't trade the bright display for the original dimmer display, however.
So, are you still using your original bulb?
It sounds like your remote problem is another bug with the set itself. My guess would be that the IR sensor on your set either has a problem or is not installed correctly (i.e. it is not entirely seated within the window and thus misses much of the IR signal). Either could be an easy fix.
Your light up/down and sometimes-flicker problem is something that I saw for the first 2 months I had my set. In my case switching out the original delivered bulb for the spare bulb completely fixed the problem plus gave me (and continues to give me) a much much brighter picture. I was wondering about this back when you said your set was hard to watch when laying on the couch. I think if you had a properly lighted bulb this would not be a problem.
Of course, this also leads to speculation as to whether my "very bright" bulb is somehow contributing to the onset of my extreme racetrack problem, or perhaps is just making it much easier to see.
I certainly wouldn't trade the bright display for the original dimmer display, however.
So, are you still using your original bulb?
Another thing. I have also become re-interested in the DLP sets, although I have had some experiences in the past with feeling a bit dizzy after watching them for an extended period. An original Panny DLP owner said that he had a similar reaction, but that it goes away after a few days of getting used to how the technology renders its image.
My local Tweeter has a 61" Samsung on the floor. I may stop by later this afternoon and take a look at it again. The original Sammy DLPs (which I looked at extensively) had a lot of OOTB problems, but I would think that has gotten a lot better. One thing I could say for sure is that the interest and support of this set on the forum is much much much higher than any of the other RP technologies. (Note the number of threads!)
There is a small part of my brain the is thinking about a full refund on the Tosh and buying a significantly cheaper but perhaps more stable technology. I think, however, I will take a hit on SD and some HD quality (at least I seem to notice "temporal dithering" on these), but I still get the benefit of no burn-in (plus no image retention).
I don't necessarily think that going from 1080p to 720p is a killer downside. More important is the impact of the colorwheel-derived image and whether this is something my brain is set up to enjoy.
I haven't given up on the Tosh yet, but I have to distract myself with such thoughts or perhaps begin to despair....
My local Tweeter has a 61" Samsung on the floor. I may stop by later this afternoon and take a look at it again. The original Sammy DLPs (which I looked at extensively) had a lot of OOTB problems, but I would think that has gotten a lot better. One thing I could say for sure is that the interest and support of this set on the forum is much much much higher than any of the other RP technologies. (Note the number of threads!)
There is a small part of my brain the is thinking about a full refund on the Tosh and buying a significantly cheaper but perhaps more stable technology. I think, however, I will take a hit on SD and some HD quality (at least I seem to notice "temporal dithering" on these), but I still get the benefit of no burn-in (plus no image retention).
I don't necessarily think that going from 1080p to 720p is a killer downside. More important is the impact of the colorwheel-derived image and whether this is something my brain is set up to enjoy.
I haven't given up on the Tosh yet, but I have to distract myself with such thoughts or perhaps begin to despair....
Yes, I'm still driving with the original factory bulb that came
installed in the set. The timeframe that we learned that swapping
the bulb could potentially fix the problem was just about the same
time that I learned that my set was going to be replaced with a
65HLX83, so I never bothered to make the swap.
I'm just lazy I guess.
installed in the set. The timeframe that we learned that swapping
the bulb could potentially fix the problem was just about the same
time that I learned that my set was going to be replaced with a
65HLX83, so I never bothered to make the swap.
I'm just lazy I guess.
Make the swap. You *should* be amazed at the difference. Prior to the swap my wife was lamenting how much dimmer the image was than the Panny DLP we had looked at. After the swap that concern has gone away....
I did some testing last night with regard to the infamous "racetrack" which seems to be occuring on many many owner's sets, but no where (apparently) to the extent it is on mine. It shows up best an an all-blue background, but has nothing to do with the blue chip itself. It is in fact some sort of latent reflectivity in the red chip. A blue display will therefore show the effect as a haze of purple on the racetrack and "outfield" areas. This gets worse as the set runs longer (heat?) but is now visible on my set upon initial startup. Note that this is also the mystery hiding place of "image retention". It is typically latent images captured onto the red chip.
So, my wondering mind begins to think: Hmm, since everyone's "racetrack" appears to also be red it would be beyond reason to think that we magically all had a bad LCoS chip that happened to be the red one. Instead it must have something to do with how the chips in general deal with the red wavelength. In my case it is clearly some level of degradation of the chip so that it is showing through some artifacts of the manufacturing process (i.e. the racetrack) and is unevenly retaining the red image on different parts of the chip surface. Note that the middle of the screen shows almost none of this effect: Only at that point will I get the correct gray or blue that is in the source image.
As I continue to wonder about this I begin to question whether this is a phenomenon that only occurs is a subset of the Hitachi chips produced for the Tosh LCoS, whether they have made any improvements in that regard, or whether this is an inherent limitation in LCoS technology overall. Is the Phillips LCoS prone to this as well or does their chip imaging process avoid it? Does the single-chip prism design help in that regard as well, since the red wavelength won't be the only one bombarding the chip during operation?
Lots of questions. We watched a DVD last night. The picture was stunning. The effect was only visible in blue-sky scenes. Blue flares were evident as well.....
If only this set sucked in other regards it would be so much easier. Is this a holy grail technology with much promise but which perhaps is not ready for long term duty???
I need answers!!!
I did some testing last night with regard to the infamous "racetrack" which seems to be occuring on many many owner's sets, but no where (apparently) to the extent it is on mine. It shows up best an an all-blue background, but has nothing to do with the blue chip itself. It is in fact some sort of latent reflectivity in the red chip. A blue display will therefore show the effect as a haze of purple on the racetrack and "outfield" areas. This gets worse as the set runs longer (heat?) but is now visible on my set upon initial startup. Note that this is also the mystery hiding place of "image retention". It is typically latent images captured onto the red chip.
So, my wondering mind begins to think: Hmm, since everyone's "racetrack" appears to also be red it would be beyond reason to think that we magically all had a bad LCoS chip that happened to be the red one. Instead it must have something to do with how the chips in general deal with the red wavelength. In my case it is clearly some level of degradation of the chip so that it is showing through some artifacts of the manufacturing process (i.e. the racetrack) and is unevenly retaining the red image on different parts of the chip surface. Note that the middle of the screen shows almost none of this effect: Only at that point will I get the correct gray or blue that is in the source image.
As I continue to wonder about this I begin to question whether this is a phenomenon that only occurs is a subset of the Hitachi chips produced for the Tosh LCoS, whether they have made any improvements in that regard, or whether this is an inherent limitation in LCoS technology overall. Is the Phillips LCoS prone to this as well or does their chip imaging process avoid it? Does the single-chip prism design help in that regard as well, since the red wavelength won't be the only one bombarding the chip during operation?
Lots of questions. We watched a DVD last night. The picture was stunning. The effect was only visible in blue-sky scenes. Blue flares were evident as well.....
If only this set sucked in other regards it would be so much easier. Is this a holy grail technology with much promise but which perhaps is not ready for long term duty???
I need answers!!!
Well my experiment failed.
The HLX82 has in and out IR jacks on the back.
And my A/V receiver has IR output jacks as well.
I tried every reasonable permutation, but I cannot
get my receiver to control the set via these jacks.
Nor will any of the various IR repeaters I have
successfully control this tv.
Bummer.
The HLX82 has in and out IR jacks on the back.
And my A/V receiver has IR output jacks as well.
I tried every reasonable permutation, but I cannot
get my receiver to control the set via these jacks.
Nor will any of the various IR repeaters I have
successfully control this tv.
Bummer.
I recently read that Mitsubishi has announced they'll produce a 1080p 82" LCoS set this fall. It's going to be a whopping $20k, but im wondering if there are any plans for them to make less expensive and smaller models (say 55-65" for ~$7-8k) anytime in the future? Maybe if Toshiba drops out of LCoS then Mitsubishi will pick it up.
Maybe Mitsubishi doesn't much care what Toshiba does? I would guess that if Toshiba drops LCOS, Mitsubishi will realize that it is not worth pursuing as the wreckage will include: Thomson, Matsushita (JVC), Samsung and Toshiba. That's pretty much a who's who of the world's largest consumer electronics companies.
Philips and Sony are playing with it now, of course, and the Mitsubishi is some kind of odd trophy statement.
There are no announced plans or even hinted at plans from Mitsubishi regarding smaller LCOS sets. I would imagine they are considering such products, of course, but whether or not they are even built is another matter. Mitsubishi -- according to Mitsubishi -- is now gunshy about being "too early" after their DLP failure and their older plasma failures.
This new conservative Mitsubishi, well, it's hard to read right now.
Philips and Sony are playing with it now, of course, and the Mitsubishi is some kind of odd trophy statement.
There are no announced plans or even hinted at plans from Mitsubishi regarding smaller LCOS sets. I would imagine they are considering such products, of course, but whether or not they are even built is another matter. Mitsubishi -- according to Mitsubishi -- is now gunshy about being "too early" after their DLP failure and their older plasma failures.
This new conservative Mitsubishi, well, it's hard to read right now.
Thanks for the info Rogo. I just read your CEDIA report at your link and am disappointed to read that Toshiba now officially says the LCOS line is delayed indefinitely. That stinks, I was looking forward to these sets as im sure many others were as well. It's really starting to sound like I should put my focus on DLP and forget about LCOS
"From: The Rogo Report on Tech:
Toshiba
One of the biggest disappointments of the show was confirmation from Toshiba that their LCOS rear-projection line is delayed indefinitely."
"From: The Rogo Report on Tech:
Toshiba
One of the biggest disappointments of the show was confirmation from Toshiba that their LCOS rear-projection line is delayed indefinitely."
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