[tokyootaku]

As I was at the Toshiba Site but nothing was mentioned of it. As I have a DV Cam to transfer all those boring family vacations and recordings onto it. Ideas ? How does this compared to the HS2.. as I see the RD-X2 has a larger driveonly

 

[vferrari]

About the only significant advantage of the RD-X2 over the HS2 is the larger HDD. Some of the quirks of the RD-X2 include: no provision for recording from inputs directly to DVD-R (must record to the HDD first), reported user un-friendly editing interface. Also, no firewire inputs. It does have faster than real time dubbing to from HDD to DVD-R; however, it appears that the source video is re-encoded during the process which can affect final picture quality.


Vic

 

[tokyootaku]

What about the HS2 does it invove reencoding again ? As by reencoding again I believe in some ways it will somewhat degrade the picture.. not sure if I am correct. The HS 2 with the firewire capabilities then would be better ?

 

[dgb]

Not sure whether or not the HS2 re-encodes in all cases. If the bitrate changes (e.g., 2 hour XP recording on HDD to 2 hours at SP on DVD-R) it has to re-encode. If the bitrate doesn't change, it might not have to re-encode anything other than edit points. However, in all cases, the dubbing to DVD-R takes place in real time (a 6 hour EP recording will take 6 hours to dub at EP, a one hour XP recording takes one hour.)


The quotes from the Toshiba manual that I've seen don't seem to eliminate the possibility that no re-encoding is done if a bitrate change isn't needed. The "re-encoding feature" quote in the "Anyone pull trigger yet?" thread may refer only to a situation where the bitrate changes, or to all DVD-R dubbing. Of course I may have missed a quote which makes it clear that it does re-encode in all cases.


David

 

[sw10025]

Well, I've got my Toshiba manual right here, so I'll tell you exactly what it says:


This recorder has 3 dubbing functions...
High Speed Dubbing

You can copy the contents of the HDD to a DVD-RAM disc or vice versa, without changing the picture and sound quality.
Rate Conversion Dubbing

You can copy the contents of the HDD to a disc or vice versa, reducing the data size. The picture and sound quality will be less than that which was originally recorded.
Line U Dubbing

You can play pictures recorded on the HDD, and copy them to a disc at the same time.


Although all dubbing is performed without converting the digital signals to analog, sound and picture quality may deteriorate in case of Rate Conversion Dubbing and Line-U Dubbing functions.


As for the reports of a user-unfriendly editing interface, its true inasmuch as it isn't as easy to use as a VCR or a Tivo, and you do really need to go through your user's manual, which I'll admit isn't organized the way I'd have wanted it going through the process the first time, but I think the reports are exaggerated. I didn't find it any more difficult to learn how to operate than my CD Recorder, for example.

 

[vferrari]

Well the direct quotes from the Toshiba manual merely beg additional questions rather than clarify the issues.

Quote:

HIGH SPEED DUBBING You can copy the contents of the HDD to a DVD-RAM disc or vice versa, without changing the picture and sound quality.

What about high speed dubbing to DVD-R? Is it true that a DVD-R can only be created through a dub from the HDD vice directly from the analog inputs? If true, wonder why Toshiba chose to impose that silly limitation.


Quote:

Although all dubbing is performed without converting the digital signals to analog, sound and picture quality may deteriorate in case of Rate Conversion Dubbing and Line-U Dubbing functions.

Follow up to above: Can dubbing to DVD-R only be performed using Rate Conversion or Line-U dubbing (since DVD-R is not mentioned in the High Speed dubbing quote)? If so, then DVD-R cannot be dubbed without at least some slight degradation.


BTW: Where the hell did they get the term Line-U dubbing from? Talk about designers being out of touch with the end user...

 

[calebu2]

Quote:

Originally posted by vferrari What about high speed dubbing to DVD-R? Is it true that a DVD-R can only be created through a dub from the HDD vice directly from the analog inputs? If true, wonder why Toshiba chose to impose that silly limitation.

I got the impression (from owning the HS2) that the lack of ability to do high speed dubbing to DVD-R was because the HDD stored the files in a single VOB/VRO file which is conducive to direct copy to a DVD-RAM, as opposed to a DVD-R which would need to have the file converted into DVD-R compatible chunks. (Not that I really understand this technology, but that's the only reason I can think of). I'm sure that it doesn't take much effort to split a DVD-R file into pieces, but if it runs the risk of missing a beat on the high speed dub, the probably wanted to avoid that possibility.


Steve

 

[vferrari]

Quote:

I got the impression (from owning the HS2) that the lack of ability to do high speed dubbing to DVD-R was because the HDD stored the files in a single VOB/VRO file which is conducive to direct copy to a DVD-RAM, as opposed to a DVD-R which would need to have the file converted into DVD-R compatible chunks. (Not that I really understand this technology, but that's the only reason I can think of). I'm sure that it doesn't take much effort to split a DVD-R file into pieces, but if it runs the risk of missing a beat on the high speed dub, the probably wanted to avoid that possibility.

With the HS2, it's true that the vro needs to be split/remuxed into vob chunks when dubbing from the DVD-VR (vro) format (DVD-RAM/HDD) to DVD-Video (vob/DVD-R). It appears that the HS2 may actually play back the DVD-VR file and re-encode to DVD-Video in real time (like an analog dub), but this has never been verified. Apparently, however, faster than real time dubs to DVD-R are possible because that is precisely what the forthcoming Pioneer unit (DVR-99H with 120 GB HDD) is advertising with high speed dubs to DVD-R at up to 4x see this link. However, its not clear whether this is a dub from DVD-VR (on the HDD) to DVD-Video (DVD-R) or a DVD-VR (HDD) to DVD-VR (DVD-R) dub.


Not sure what the odd RD-X2 does in dubbing to DVD-R. The user's manual excerpts that have been posted on this forum indicate that the manual is very poorly written and leaves more questions than answers. Plus the limitation that precludes DVD-R's from being recorded directly from the analog inputs is just ridiculous.


Vic

 

[sw10025]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HIGH SPEED DUBBING

You can copy the contents of the HDD to a DVD-RAM disc or vice versa, without changing the picture and sound quality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

What about high speed dubbing to DVD-R? Is it true that a DVD-R can only be created through a dub from the HDD vice directly from the analog inputs? If true, wonder why Toshiba chose to impose that silly limitation.

Sorry about that, I was very tired last night when I typed that up and should have elaborated. OK, here's the way it works, don't ask me why. The "high speed dubbing" function only works for DVD-RAM, not for DVD-R. For DVD-R, you use the edit menu, and the "Create DVD-R" function. You select the titles and chapters you want to put on the disc until you run out of room, name the disc, choose your menu color scheme, etc., etc. The machine then creates the disc, showing a progress bar on the bottom of the screen, but "backgrounding" the picture so you actually watch whatever live input is coming into the machine, rather than the picture. When the machine is done, it automatically finalizes the disc.


I believe the reason for the "backgrounding" of the picture is that it creates the disc in significantly under the proscribed amount of time. I created a number of two hour discs last night that didn't take two hours to create, I'd be willing to bet. Its not the "high speed dubbing" function per se, but whatever it is, it seems to go significantly faster than regular 1x dubbing that you'd do on an E20. I couldn't tell you what speed it actually is, because I can't find anything in the manual about it, well nothing specific.


True, you cannot record to a DVD-R directly from the input source, it has to be recorded onto the hard drive first. This may be for the reasons others have suggested, it may be because the machine wants to know where one program ends and another begins, or when the recording has finished and it can finalize the disc, because unlike an E20, you can't select an option to manually finalize a disc, the operation is entirely automatic.


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although all dubbing is performed without converting the digital signals to analog, sound and picture quality may deteriorate in case of Rate Conversion Dubbing and Line-U Dubbing functions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Follow up to above: Can dubbing to DVD-R only be performed using Rate Conversion or Line-U dubbing (since DVD-R is not mentioned in the High Speed dubbing quote)? If so, then DVD-R cannot be dubbed without at least some slight degradation.

Again, you don't use Rate Conversion or Line-U dubbing for DVD-R, you use the "DVD-R create" function. I believe if you record from one speed on the HDD to the same speed on the DVD-R (SP to SP, for example) there isn't any degradation. I have been doing this, being sure to record onto the HDD at the setting I'll eventually want to put it onto disc, and I certainly haven't noticed any degradation of picture quality between the HDD recording and the DVD-R recording.


BTW: Where the hell did they get the term Line-U dubbing from? Talk about designers being out of touch with the end user...

 

[vferrari]

Thanks for the detailed post re: RD-X2 DVD-R burning. I understand it a lot better now and the reasoning behind non-live DVD-R burning (auto finalize). Obviously, this could have been better implemented a la the Panasonic recorders.


Vic

 

[sw10025]

Oh, I should clarify, unlike recording onto a DVD-RAM, the DVD-R recordation is a one shot process. You can't record one program onto a DVD-R disc today, another tomorrow, the rest next week, and finalize next month, like you can on the E20 -- I have no idea what the HS2 does. (DVD-RAM will record piecemeal as with the E20.)


At first, I thought this was going to be a BIG drawback/inconvenience, but actually it works better this way, believe it or not. The HDD is big enough that I can store a lot of programs (its twice as large as the HD on the HS2) -- 105 hours on the equivalent of EP on the E20, so if you cut out commercials, that's approximately 140 "hour long" shows or 280 "half hour" shows, or its somewhere between 35 - 40 hours on SP, IIRC. So if I wanted to put a bunch of WW2 documentaries onto a disc, I could just keep them on the HDD until I had enough of them, edit out the commercials, set the thumbnails and titles whenever I chose, and then program the RDX2 to download them all onto a DVD-R. It doesn't take the full amount of time it would have with an E20, I don't have to monitor it (I create discs overnight while I sleep), and it greatly reduces the chances of a disc being corrupted, because you go from opening a DVD-R package to finalizing it in one go. Even if it does fail somehow, you still have all the stuff on the HDD to put on another blank disc.

 

[sw10025]

Quote:

Originally posted by vferrari Thanks for the detailed post re: RD-X2 DVD-R burning. I understand it a lot better now and the reasoning behind non-live DVD-R burning (auto finalize). Obviously, this could have been better implemented a la the Panasonic recorders. Vic

Well, again I don't have an HS2, but I have had several E20s, and if they're anything to go by (two of the three units are broken, one at four months and one at nine months, respectively), even when they were working there was an unacceptable level of disc failures, both during regular recording and finalization attempts (and this was with branded discs, mind you, not cheapie stuff). I'll gladly sacrifice live DVD-R burning, as well as the ability to record programs one at a time on the disc, if it means fewer ruined discs.

 

[dgb]

sw10025,


Have you been able to try playing a DVD-RAM disc recorded on an E20 in the RD-X2?


Just curious about whether it or not recordings made on the Panasonic might be compatible. The RD-X2 seems to have some advantages over the Panasonic recorders. If DVD-RAM recordings are interchangable, it might be worth using them together.


David

 

[sw10025]

Yeah, that's the first thing I tried to figure out. A non finalized DVD-R isn't compatible with the RDX2, you can't record anything additional on it, but finalized DVD-Rs and DVD-RAM *will* play on the Toshiba, even though with the DVD-RAM there was an error message (something about the codes not being the same).


What I have been doing is recording programs onto the Toshiba HDD, editing out the commercials, and then filling up all the half recorded DVD-Rs I have on the one E20 that is still working. Once a disc is filled and finalized, say the disc for "American Experience" episodes, then everything I record from that point will be burned on the RDX2. (I just hope the one E20 that still works holds up until I finish all of these half-filled DVD-Rs...)

 

[dgb]

sw10025,


Thanks for the information about DVD-RAM playback. It sounds like maybe there's a chance of getting these two brands to work together. I was concerned that there might be issues even between different brands of DVD-RAM recorders. Do you happen to know if a DVD-RAM recording from the E20 will dub to the hard drive on the Toshiba?


If Panasonic provides a fix for the luminance problem on DVD-RAM, it might be possible to dub properly encoded DVD-RAM recordings to the RD-X2 hard drive, then dub to DVD-R (with thumbnails) at higher speed and be sure of no loss as long as the bitrate doesn't change. Of course it's possible that edit points may not be frame accurate after being transferred since there seems to be some extra information controlling playback of edit points on the Panasonic recorders.


Given the problems you've had with the E20s, you might be best just finalizing the DVD-R disks which you have started recording with the E20. Even though you've be wasting some storage space, at least you'd be sure of preserving the existing recordings rather than risk problems filling the remaining space.


David

 

[sw10025]

The only part of the DVD-RAM recorded on an E20 that the RDX2 won't play back is the title information (that was what the error message was about). But the program itself seems to play back. Haven't tried to record it onto the HDD, though. Will have to check that out.


As for going ahead and finalizing the DVD-Rs I started on the E20s without filling up the discs, that's going to waste a lot of discs, since I probably have 50 - 100 partial discs out there, and I figure worse case, if they won't finalize properly, if its something I can't get easily enough through repeats, I can pop the unfinalized disc into the E20, play it and record it onto the HDD and from there onto a Toshiba created DVD-R. There will undoubtedly be dimunition of picture quality, but most things I'd be able to get through repeats at some point in the future, if need be.