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Yes, you can place any Triad LCR on it's side, but here's an analogy: Keep in mind that this one is coming from a female.

Can you feed a baby formula instead of breast milk, yes. Which one is better for the infant? For you guys out there the answer is: breast milk. What does this have to do with Triad LCRs? Think of breast milk as vertical placement and formula as horizontal placement.

It's still early in the morning and that's the best analogy I could come up with. :)

Now if you are happy with your current setup, don't torture yourself over this. If you are curious about the difference, reposition the speaker vertically to determine if you hear a meaningful change in sound quality.
Heh, I understand that vertical is better (and clearly you CAN put it on it's side) but I'm not sure your analogy helps me understand how much better or why. Your analogy makes it sound like you'd only go horizontal if you were a bad parent!

Triad seems to think that not only to they work horizontally but they 'work well'. In fact, in some scenarios I could imagine that horizontal might sound better simply since you're getting the tweeter higher up (assuming it's going below the monitor) than you would in a vertical approach... since I tend to focus more on the 'science' part I'd like to understand more what's going on behind the blanket statements and why the effect would be so dramatic. Especially since a horizontal center is often much more family room friendly.

Is the sq issue simply lobing (in which case the sq diff would only be noticeable horizontally off axis)? I wouldn't think it had anything to do with the dispersion of the tweeter (if it did presumably you could just reorient it 90 degrees) as was implied but I'm here to learn so please correct me! I'm a platinum owner (behind a woven screen) so none of this actually applies to me but it's interesting nevertheless.
 

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Thanks Dan & Dawn - I guess I need to see what I can do about getting it upright even though I haven't really noticed any issues dialogue or otherwise :)


It just pains me knowing it is an incorrect orientation :eek:
Personally, even tho I can obsess about such things myself (wanting to always do what's right in theory) I wouldn't worry about it unless you can clearly notice a difference between the horizontal vs vertical positioning. Maybe have someone switch the speaker orientation randomly while you sit blind folded from the listening position and see if you can properly call out which position its in almost every time (to take away the guessing). If you can, then its worth doing. If not, why bother?

What type of treatments have you done in your room regarding bass traps, reflective panels etc? My guess is that if you haven't focused on that much, you'd get far more value from concentrating on that than trying to move your screen to accommodate a vertical speaker - particularly if you can't tell the difference in the blind listening test... Let us know how it goes!
 

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The issue with placing an MTM speaker horizontally is off-axis lobing and comb filtering. When an MTM (Midrange - Tweeter - Midrange), is placed vertically, the off axis lobing/comb filtering happens above and below the speaker. Since you're not sitting above or below the speaker, it doesn't matter that there is lobing and comb filtering there. However, when you turn the same speaker and place it horizontally, the comb filtering happens to the left and right of the central axis. Off axis listening positions will experience a comb filtered sound. There are lots of ways to mitigate this problem, some of them having to do with the crossover point between the M's and T, others having to do with moving the tweeter so it's above the mid's and then moving the mid's closer together.

Here is an article that explains the phenomenon: http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

It's not the end of the world if you turn an MTM horizontally, and it may be better to do so than to place it vertically, but too low or too high. The "ideal" placement is to place it vertically at the same height as the L/R's and have all 3 front speakers at ear level. This generally requires the use of an acoustically transparent screen.

Craig
 
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Craig,

Thanks for the great explanation.

In my case, even though I had to move my center Gold Monitor lower (underneath a drop-down, non AT screen) in order to move it to a vertical position, it made a huge difference in the ability to hear dialog more clearly. Glad I did it.

Interestingly, as you mentioned, another option would have been to have Triad modify the crossover to convert it to *real* center channel operation. In the end, I was lucky and didn't need to do that.
 

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The issue with placing an MTM speaker horizontally is off-axis lobing and comb filtering. When an MTM (Midrange - Tweeter - Midrange), is placed vertically, the off axis lobing/comb filtering happens above and below the speaker. Since you're not sitting above or below the speaker, it doesn't matter that there is lobing and comb filtering there. However, when you turn the same speaker and place it horizontally, the comb filtering happens to the left and right of the central axis. Off axis listening positions will experience a comb filtered sound. There are lots of ways to mitigate this problem, some of them having to do with the crossover point between the M's and T, others having to do with moving the tweeter so it's above the mid's and then moving the mid's closer together.

Here is an article that explains the phenomenon: http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

It's not the end of the world if you turn an MTM horizontally, and it may be better to do so than to place it vertically, but too low or too high. The "ideal" placement is to place it vertically at the same height as the L/R's and have all 3 front speakers at ear level. This generally requires the use of an acoustically transparent screen.

Craig
thanks Craig... this is pretty much confirms what I was thinking.
 

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Triad Atmos speakers. They are going to be at Axpona in April and are planning on showing their new Atmos speakers (live demo?)

See http://www.axpona.com/exhibitors_detail.asp?ID=16725


Good afternoon all,

We will be displaying at Axpona with Triad, the room will have the new Sony VPLVW350ES projector, Marantz AV8802 preamp, Parasound Halo amplifiers, and Triad speakers/subs. It will be a new Atmos enabled speaker from Triad.
 

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Good afternoon all,

We will be displaying at Axpona with Triad, the room will have the new Sony VPLVW350ES projector, Marantz AV8802 preamp, Parasound Halo amplifiers, and Triad speakers/subs. It will be a new Atmos enabled speaker from Triad.
That's great and I wish I could attend, but what we need are real surround and overhead surround speakers (on-wall/on-ceiling, in-wall/in-ceiling, and in-room) that better comply with the wide dispersion, wide frequency range needs of 3D audio. Not more "enabled" speakers.
 

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That's great and I wish I could attend, but what we need are real surround and overhead surround speakers (on-wall/on-ceiling, in-wall/in-ceiling, and in-room) that better comply with the wide dispersion, wide frequency range needs of 3D audio. Not more "enabled" speakers.
Their LCRs are what Atmos specify for surrounds. But I agree, a Atmos ceiling speaker would be nice. I held off on Atmos speakers in the ceiling until I see something like that.
 

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Their LCRs are what Atmos specify for surrounds. But I agree, a Atmos ceiling speaker would be nice. I held off on Atmos speakers in the ceiling until I see something like that.
Yes I'm holding off on ceiling speaker selection for that reason and also I'm waiting to see what DTS will say about DTS:X ceiling placements. Considering its said that DTS has about 85% of the Blu-ray market, it may be reasonable to think DTS:X could prevail - so if they recommend a much different ceiling configuration I may go in that direction...
 

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Yes I'm holding off on ceiling speaker selection for that reason and also I'm waiting to see what DTS will say about DTS:X ceiling placements. Considering its said that DTS has about 85% of the Blu-ray market, it may be reasonable to think DTS:X could prevail - so if they recommend a much different ceiling configuration I may go in that direction...
DTS, supposedly, doesn't recommend any particular layout (as long as there is a height element of some sort allowing for x/y/z axis steering). It's up to the individual mixer to determine the best configuration he/she wants/needs (and would flag the track as such). MDA object rendering is supposed to be agnostic with speaker re-mapping included since the mixer would not know a particular theater auditorium's 3D audio layout (Auro, Atmos, or something else). If it happens to follow the original dubbing stage configuration, that's great, and if not, the objects will get steered to the next best positions.

They did reiterate more than once at CES and other expos that one of the speaker layout patterns for DTS:X matches Dolby Atmos' recommendations. So, if you don't want to wait any longer... build for Atmos and you're still ready for DTS:X. Not so for Auro3D, which makes them the odd man out.
 

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DTS, supposedly, doesn't recommend any particular layout (as long as there is a height element of some sort allowing for x/y/z axis steering). It's up to the individual mixer to determine the best configuration he/she wants/needs (and would flag the track as such). MDA object rendering is supposed to be agnostic with speaker re-mapping included since the mixer would not know a particular theater auditorium's 3D audio layout (Auro, Atmos, or something else). If it happens to follow the original dubbing stage configuration, that's great, and if not, the objects will get steered to the next best positions.

They did reiterate more than once at CES and other expos that one of the speaker layout patterns for DTS:X matches Dolby Atmos' recommendations. So, if you don't want to wait any longer... build for Atmos and you're still ready for DTS:X. Not so for Auro3D, which makes them the odd man out.
"One of the speaker layout patterns" - that's just it. One. Perhaps they will come out and says that if you already have an Atmos setup than they will support it in a compatibility mode or this one particular mode, but what if they go on to say that to get the most of DTS:X they recommend a different ceiling speaker configuration? That's my concern while building my new room. I thought they were going to announce these details in March. Hopefully sooner than later since it's holding up my plans.
 

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"One of the speaker layout patterns" - that's just it. One. Perhaps they will come out and says that if you already have an Atmos setup than they will support it in a compatibility mode or this one particular mode, but what if they go on to say that to get the most of DTS:X they recommend a different ceiling speaker configuration? That's my concern while building my new room. I thought they were going to announce these details in March. Hopefully sooner than later since it's holding up my plans.
But that goes against the philosophy behind their MDA object format. You can mix and render to DTS Neo:X, Auro, Atmos, NHK Broadcasting's 22.2, etc. etc. configurations. They don't normally prescribe fixed layouts like Dolby does with Atmos. It's an open platform.

One of the cinema demonstrations conducted for one of the SMPTE working groups by DTS was to show how flexible the MDA rendering engine was by successfully playing back the same MDA object-oriented bitstream track on an Atmos layout, an Auro layout, and an 11.1 layout. SMPTE ultimately wants to endorse an agnostic 3D audio platform, so there is full interoperability and less confusion in the marketplace.

I doubt you'll see them say "use this particular configuration for the best DTS:X experience" in their press release. They understand that dubbing stage designs can be different. They'll probably mention the maximum amount of speakers DTS:X can render to just like with home Atmos. Perhaps, the amount of objects supported. How flexible their first generation re-mapping feature will be. Maybe hint if they used lossy or lossless encoding for the object stream on the DTS Master Audio extension file, etc.

It's quite possible that the bulk of the debut DTS:X home video releases will have been conformed to the Dolby Atmos layout since that's the most used 3D audio layout so far.
 

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But that goes against the philosophy behind their MDA object format. You can mix and render to DTS Neo:X, Auro, Atmos, NHK Broadcasting's 22.2, etc. etc. configurations. They don't normally prescribe fixed layouts like Dolby does with Atmos. It's an open platform.

One of the cinema demonstrations conducted for one of the SMPTE working groups by DTS was to show how flexible the MDA rendering engine was by successfully playing back the same MDA object-oriented bitstream track on an Atmos layout, an Auro layout, and an 11.1 layout. SMPTE ultimately wants to endorse an agnostic 3D audio platform, so there is full interoperability and less confusion in the marketplace.

I doubt you'll see them say "use this particular configuration for the best DTS:X experience" in their press release. They understand that dubbing stage designs can be different. They'll probably mention the maximum amount of speakers DTS:X can render to just like with home Atmos. Perhaps, the amount of objects supported. How flexible their first generation re-mapping feature will be. Maybe hint if they used lossy or lossless encoding for the object stream on the DTS Master Audio extension file, etc.

It's quite possible that the bulk of the debut DTS:X home video releases will have been conformed to the Dolby Atmos layout since that's the most used 3D audio layout so far.
I see what you are saying. Still I'll feel better making plans for Triads in the ceiling once we have some official word from DTS. That sais, what about the ATSC 3.0 UHD spec for 3D audio? I think we are waiting on their plans for height speaker placement too? I wonder what impact this may have on Triads future planned products, if any?
 

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Its certainly a crazy time in the speaker format land right now, for those of us building home theaters right now we kind of just take a gamble and hope for the best. In my case, I built speaker boxes in my ceiling that would support Dolby Atmos, but I didn't put any speakers in them and they are just covered by drywall in the ceiling now. When this speaker format situation finally pans out at least ill hopefully have enough flexibility to get a system that matches what the "standard" is. Just like how I planned my side speakers for a 9.x setup, but will just start with 7.1. I think that's about all we can do at the moment, try to be as flexible as possible and plan for what you think might come, unless you have a lot of money and don't mind re-doing drywall and speaker placements all the time, let alone re-buying equipment.
 

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LOL! I love, and completely understand, the analogy.

I did turn the center vertical last night for a short listening test just to see what would happen. With my current arrangement I can't really leave it that way as it blocks about 1.5" of screen bottom (guess I could raise the screen). I thought maybe the dialogue was a teensy bit clearer that way, but TBH I am not even sure about that.

Once I get REW setup and take a few measurements it will be interesting to see the results both ways. But for my entirely untreated room I don't expect the graphs to look very good anyway ;)
To get the full effect, you need to sit OFF CENTER.

Directly in front of the speaker, horizontal and vertical will be very similar. Off to the side (like two seats left or right) and critical listening will reveal a different tone. Whether you care/it matters to you is a different question!
 

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I see what you are saying. Still I'll feel better making plans for Triads in the ceiling once we have some official word from DTS. That sais, what about the ATSC 3.0 UHD spec for 3D audio? I think we are waiting on their plans for height speaker placement too? I wonder what impact this may have on Triads future planned products, if any?
I believe the only real fly in the ointment is the MPEG 3D audio format. DTS:X and Dolby Atmos will be in a lossy compressed form (Dolby uses the AC-4 codec for streaming and broadcast since it can handle Atmos), but their basic philosophies should be the same as for movie usage. The only difference is that for certain broadcasts that use consumer adjustable object parameters, like for live sports, may use a smaller amount of the home video versions' speaker output count due to the extra data space needed for separate objects for different sub audio information. At least at CES it seemed like DTS's X demo used the same speaker layout for movies and broadcast usage.

And then again ATSC 3.0 may only have one of these standards.

That said, if you are at a position in your build to be able to wait for DTS's announcement, then that is sound logic. If someone here cannot... then I would build around Dolby Atmos, and you should be fine.
 

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Good afternoon all,

We will be displaying at Axpona with Triad, the room will have the new Sony VPLVW350ES projector, Marantz AV8802 preamp, Parasound Halo amplifiers, and Triad speakers/subs. It will be a new Atmos enabled speaker from Triad.

I'm heading to Portland sometime this week to hear Dolby Licensed Atmos speakers.............invite.........

Have not been told what they are or brand but dimensions are very, very encouraging.......keeping fingers crossed they are from Triad! To be honest......that is all I know! :(
 
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