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If the speakers are toed in, as in the diagram, it seems to me they are not 30 degrees off-axis, they are zero. The enclosure is 30, but the drivers are zero.



All things being equal, it would be nice to put all three behind the screen. The yellow position behind screen would still leave the L-R 9 ft apart. My current media room has Polk bookshelfs 6 ft apart with a similar 12 ft MLP, which seems to work OK although it's mostly 5.1 listening. While 22 might be narrow if toed in, it seems like it should be fine if not toed-in, if a toed-in speaker is really zero off-axis even if the enclose is 30. Maybe I'm missing something here? BTW, do you have a picture of how you toed them in if they're InWalls. I originally planned to put InRooms on a shelf behind the screen so as to toe-in, but was told to stick with InWalls when in the wall. There's 2.5 ft of space behind screen. Thanks for the responses.
L/R's just outside the screen edges and toe'd in. To me, this provides the ideal front soundstage, with appropriate width, good lock-up of sounds to images, and minimal effect from the screen on the sounds from the L/R's. A good Room Correction program can even out the CC to make it work with the L/R's.





L/R's behind the screen is too pinched for the front soundstage. Too wide, and the soundstage is too big, and the sound locations don't lock up to the images.

In-walls are not as easy to toe-in, but in-room speakers on shelfs are just as good and easily aimed.

Good luck.

Craig
 

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If the speakers are toed in, as in the diagram, it seems to me they are not 30 degrees off-axis, they are zero. The enclosure is 30, but the drivers are zero.
You're confusing speaker POSITION with on vs off axis.

The angular spread (e.g. 30 degrees) is the location of the sound source relative to the listener -- speaker toe-in is irrelevant to the angular separation calculation. So when you see the rule of thumb about having speakers about 60 degrees apart (+/- 30 degrees off the centerline) that has to do with proper stereo separation and imaging so your ears/brain hears the sound from both sides. These angles like what you see in speaker layout diagrams have are referenced to the axis of the listener vs. the centerline looking straight ahead at the video image.

Separately, there is the relationship between the speaker's axis of sound. Not the the same thing, but still important. As you move off axis from a speaker, the response (especially the high frequencies) changes from the on-axis response.

While 22 might be narrow if toed in, it seems like it should be fine if not toed-in, if a toed-in speaker is really zero off-axis even if the enclose is 30. Maybe I'm missing something here?
Yes, as above there's a difference between angular separation as it relates to speaker positions / stereo imaging vs. on/off axis angle relative to the speaker. The toe-in doesn't necessarily change where the speaker is placed, what it does is (1) change how far on/off axis the individual listeners are and (2) change the ratio of direct vs. reflected energy that the listeners here (focus vs. envelopment).

For the first part, imagine your left speaker is positioned off to the left side of the screen, not toed in at all. The person sitting on the left-most seat is on axis with the left speaker.... the person in the middle is slightly off axis... but the person sitting in the right-most seat is pretty far off axis (so the sound from the left speaker won't sound the same to these two people). If you toe the speaker in towards the middle, now the person in the middle is on axis, and the left/right seats are only slightly off axis.

So when I was discussing speaker width vs. toe-in, with your setup and the speakers firing straight forward, you are balancing a compromise between stereo separation (wider = better) and even coverage of the entire listening area (wider = worse). Which is why I suggested not going all the way to 32deg, but sticking with the middle ground (27deg).

BTW, do you have a picture of how you toed them in if they're InWalls. I originally planned to put InRooms on a shelf behind the screen so as to toe-in, but was told to stick with InWalls when in the wall. There's 2.5 ft of space behind screen. Thanks for the responses.
I attached an old photo of when I set my speakers up behind the screen -- my setup isn't totally best practice as I used "InWall" speakers but they aren't actually installed in the wall, they are built into a quasi-baffle just in front of the wall which allowed me to angle in the outer speakers.



In a true in-wall setup with toe in you'd do a full baffle wall with angled "wings" on the baffle like this photo:

 

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You're confusing speaker POSITION with on vs off axis.
Yes, I was conflating the two. Thanks for the detailed explanation.
 

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Looking for some Triad speaker location advice and selection. This is my room. I already have 2 silver in room LCR that I intend to place on the mantel or on the soon to be constructed built in cabinets. The silver center will go in a custom shelf behind a screened panel behind the TV. The TV is on a dynamic mantel mount and will fold down for viewing, revealing the center speaker.

I can really only use in ceiling for the surrounds since the walls are pretty much off limits for aesthetics, plus the windows. I was considering either bronze or silver Sats or LCRs in the ceiling for the surrounds, located ~4' behind the couch. Bronze would just be a size/price saver for the surrounds. Should I go for the surrounds mounted in the ceiling instead?

I would also like to incorporate Atmos 5.1.2 if possible, maybe by pointing the ceiling speakers towards the walls or ceiling. Would this be worth it over the straight 5.1 given my room limitations?

Thanks
Thanks, Dawn for the ceiling speaker and ATMOS clarification. I had seen some talk in this thread about setting up ATMOS with ceiling surrounds bouncing off side/back walls to create a virtual lower image. Obviously not ideal, but maybe better than straight 5.1. Any experience with that or should I just stop lusting after ATMOS until I get a different room?

Assuming a 5.1 setup:
1. What would you recommend here, the In Ceiling Silver/6 Sat, or the In Wall Silver/4 Surround mounted in the ceiling? Similar size and price points.
2. Where would you locate your recommendation on the ceiling? (I'm assuming the Surrounds would be placed differently than the Sats)
 

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I would forego Atmos right now. Speaker level channels in the ceiling preclude any type of Atmos installation.

You can go with either for surround but I would probably lean towards Silver Surrounds mounted in the ceiling. If you want installation instructions I can send them to you via email.
 

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Has anyone here heard both the Triad Gold LCR and the Klipsch THX ultra KL-650's? I have the latter and and considering the Golds.
Thanks
 

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Has anyone here heard both the Triad Gold LCR and the Klipsch THX ultra KL-650's? I have the latter and and considering the Golds.
Thanks
Yes, I have had both in my theater and currently have the Triad Gold LCR's. The Klipsch THX were really good speakers for movies, but I felt they lacked a bit in music. Also, while not as "bright" as the standard Klipsch line, the Klipsch THX still tilted towards the bright end in my room. If that's what you prefer, then no issues there. I, however, tend to like a bit more "warm" sound, while still being dynamic, and I think the Triad Golds provide this in spades. Also, the Triads for music are heads and tails above the Klipsch - while still providing plenty of slam for movies. Overall, I think the Golds are the best speakers I've had in my theater so far, and past brands include Klipsch, M&K, Atlantic Technology and Definitive Technology.
 

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Has anyone here heard both the Triad Gold LCR and the Klipsch THX ultra KL-650's? I have the latter and and considering the Golds.
Thanks
I own Gold LCR's and have heard those particular Klipsch. My listening experience pretty much mirrors bambam, the Triad owner above.

I felt the Klipsch had a somewhat unnatural timbre in the frequency range most associated with human vocals. Their horns could get a bit "honky" and PA speaker-like when pushed hard and I wasn't enamoured with that "feature."

The Gold's are pretty darn spot on and quite musical. I don't feel I missed much by not choosing the Monitor versions, which are considered more refined for critical listening, but with less "oomph" for movie watching at reference.
 

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Dennis does a very good job. With those dimensions your room can certainly go with Triad Gold LCRs. If you want a copy of the Triad Speaker Matching chart we created you can email me and I'll send you a copy.

Personally, when it comes to Klipsch vs Triad, I would rather have a hand-built, speaker, made in Portland with super high-quality parts than a big box store brand. :)
 

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New Triad set-up

Looking for help/suggestions.
I have a 28x28 room. Seating is roughly right in the middle, about 13 feet from the screen. I am limited to in-ceiling. 80/20 video to music use.
Have spec'd Gold/8 MiniMonitors for LCR and Silver/6 MiniMonitors for 4 surrounds. For subs, was thinking of the Bronze 10 in ceiling in each corner, 4 total. Marantz 7012 for processing and maybe amplification for some or all channels (except subs). Not opposed to external amplification for some or all of the 7 channels. NAD M27 is tempting.
Any and all thoughts on speakers, subs and electronics appreciated.
 

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Looking for help/suggestions.
I have a 28x28 room. Seating is roughly right in the middle, about 13 feet from the screen. I am limited to in-ceiling. 80/20 video to music use.
Have spec'd Gold/8 MiniMonitors for LCR and Silver/6 MiniMonitors for 4 surrounds. For subs, was thinking of the Bronze 10 in ceiling in each corner, 4 total. Marantz 7012 for processing and maybe amplification for some or all channels (except subs). Not opposed to external amplification for some or all of the 7 channels. NAD M27 is tempting.
Any and all thoughts on speakers, subs and electronics appreciated.
We should have picts and/or an exact diagram to ascertain if in-ceiling speakers are truly your only option. Sometimes you might be surprised.
 

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Hi Jeff and welcome to the Triad thread.

28 x 28 is way too large of a space for MiniMonitors. I would much rather see you go with InCeiling Silver/8 LCRs or InCeiling Silver/8 Monitors. You should consider IC Silver/4 Surrounds mounted in the ceiling for your surround channels.

I would look at ATI amps (a Triad employee favorite) and Marantz processing.
 

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Suggestions for InWall set up

I'm a bit new to nice audio stuff, but I've spent a lot of time reading in the last few weeks. Time to start asking questions :)

I'm looking to create a 5.1 set up, split for both music and home theater. We don't listen to music very loud, but on occasion I'll find myself alone and turn it up. The plan was to do in-wall speakers, but now my wife wants to build a custom media center. I contacted Triad directly and they said that mounting their InWall speakers in a cabinet would be fine, so that sounds like what I'm going to do.

Next step is deciding what speakers and subs I should go for. I've taken a look at the speaker matching guide from triadspeakersforum.com and according to prices listed there I should probably go with the Silver Monitor series. I'd love to do Gold LCRs, but they're too tall. And Gold Monitors are too expensive. So InWall Silver Monitors it is! I assume that's a fine fit instead of the LCRs?

Next step is a couple of in-ceiling speakers. I assume I should go with the Silvers there as well. I'm in a one story house, so should I get the openround or sealedround speakers? I've got room for both.

And finally a sub. Or two. I mentioned that I planned on doing in-wall speakers and as such installed some invisible in-wall subs from Stealth Audio. They don't hit that hard, but they are truly invisible, which is kinda cool. Now that we're building out a cabinet I could potentially mount some subs in the cabinet. Any recommenadations there? The INWALL SILVER/15 SUB looks promising. Is 1 of those enough? One side better then the other?

And of course, the plans. You can see the couch and the TV in red. They're actually a bit further into the room, but it's just about right. At this point, I can only do the speakers behind the sofa and in the cabinet, I can't do any above the sofa. There will also be a pair of speakers in the kitchen above the island. I thought of putting another pair in the space between the rooms, but realized I don't need them, the room isn't that big.

I'll be doing ceiling speakers in the bedrooms as well, but that's a different story. And all electronics live in a different media closet, so heat shouldn't be an issue. I've still got to pick out an amp, but I have a Marantz 8802A to run the show.

Questions:
Are Silver Monitors ok for LCR?
OpenRound or SealedRound speakers for 1 story house?
Small subs that will mount in a cabinet?
 

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I'm a bit new to nice audio stuff, but I've spent a lot of time reading in the last few weeks. Time to start asking questions /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

I'm looking to create a 5.1 set up, split for both music and home theater. We don't listen to music very loud, but on occasion I'll find myself alone and turn it up. The plan was to do in-wall speakers, but now my wife wants to build a custom media center. I contacted Triad directly and they said that mounting their InWall speakers in a cabinet would be fine, so that sounds like what I'm going to do.

Next step is deciding what speakers and subs I should go for. I've taken a look at the speaker matching guide from triadspeakersforum.com and according to prices listed there I should probably go with the Silver Monitor series. I'd love to do Gold LCRs, but they're too tall. And Gold Monitors are too expensive. So InWall Silver Monitors it is! I assume that's a fine fit instead of the LCRs?

Next step is a couple of in-ceiling speakers. I assume I should go with the Silvers there as well. I'm in a one story house, so should I get the openround or sealedround speakers? I've got room for both.

And finally a sub. Or two. I mentioned that I planned on doing in-wall speakers and as such installed some invisible in-wall subs from Stealth Audio. They don't hit that hard, but they are truly invisible, which is kinda cool. Now that we're building out a cabinet I could potentially mount some subs in the cabinet. Any recommenadations there? The INWALL SILVER/15 SUB looks promising. Is 1 of those enough? One side better then the other?

And of course, the plans. You can see the couch and the TV in red. They're actually a bit further into the room, but it's just about right. At this point, I can only do the speakers behind the sofa and in the cabinet, I can't do any above the sofa. There will also be a pair of speakers in the kitchen above the island. I thought of putting another pair in the space between the rooms, but realized I don't need them, the room isn't that big.

I'll be doing ceiling speakers in the bedrooms as well, but that's a different story. And all electronics live in a different media closet, so heat shouldn't be an issue. I've still got to pick out an amp, but I have a Marantz 8802A to run the show.

Questions:
Are Silver Monitors ok for LCR?
OpenRound or SealedRound speakers for 1 story house?
Small subs that will mount in a cabinet?
First of all, I can't seem to get your attachment to show up. Secondly, if you like to turn up the volume, as it were, sometimes, I would go with Silver LCR's instead.

Are you enclosing a flat panel TV or are you building out something for a projection screen?

If it's the latter, I would choose acoustically transparent material and use a vertical LCR for the center speaker.

If you can help it, DO NOT use ceiling speakers as surrounds, only as true overheads in an immersive Dolby Atmos system. Place in-walls at just above seated head height for main surrounds (side and rear).

Again, not knowing the size of your room or being able to see a layout diagram is only allowing me to speculate.

Personally, I'm not a fan of built-in cabinetry as it really limits your options if you ever decide to upgrade any piece of your AV system... and that bug will bite sooner or later.
 

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Dan,

I was able to see Jason's plan and if I could get the ceiling height I will be able calculate the correct speaker size. He may be able to get Silver Monitors to work. I always to try to spec Monitors when the client is interested in a high mix of music listening. Depending on the total cubic measurement, an option would be to change the crossover to 100 Hz. That might be enough for louder listening levels and still give him those smooth Scan-Speak audiophile drivers.
 

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2 posts, 1 reply:

First of all, I can't seem to get your attachment to show up. Secondly, if you like to turn up the volume, as it were, sometimes, I would go with Silver LCR's instead.

Are you enclosing a flat panel TV or are you building out something for a projection screen?

If it's the latter, I would choose acoustically transparent material and use a vertical LCR for the center speaker.

If you can help it, DO NOT use ceiling speakers as surrounds, only as true overheads in an immersive Dolby Atmos system. Place in-walls at just above seated head height for main surrounds (side and rear).

Again, not knowing the size of your room or being able to see a layout diagram is only allowing me to speculate.

Personally, I'm not a fan of built-in cabinetry as it really limits your options if you ever decide to upgrade any piece of your AV system... and that bug will bite sooner or later.
We'll be enclosing a 65" TV and won't be able to do a vertical center channel. It's going to have to lay horizontally. I know what you're saying about upgrading but it's a battle I won't be able to win. It's either this or I use the TV speaker.

I don't have an option to do in-walls. It's in a great room w/ a 16' slider to the left, a slider to the rear and no wall to the right. The only place for the speakers is in the ceiling.

The family room itself is ~20x17, the kitchen attached to it is ~20x13. Ceilings are vaulted, 8' at the wall and up to 14' at the peak.





Dan,

I was able to see Jason's plan and if I could get the ceiling height I will be able calculate the correct speaker size. He may be able to get Silver Monitors to work. I always to try to spec Monitors when the client is interested in a high mix of music listening. Depending on the total cubic measurement, an option would be to change the crossover to 100 Hz. That might be enough for louder listening levels and still give him those smooth Scan-Speak audiophile drivers.

Sorry Dawn, didn't think of height. Mentioned above: Ceilings are vaulted, 8' at the wall and up to 14' at the peak.
 
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