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Tryg This buds for you
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Awesome. Hitachi's got it going on. 1920 x 1080.
I would love to find an industry article comparing the differences of the different chips. I tend to believe Hitachi has actually leap frogged JVC in chip design. Smaller and no dimples. I believe this will make a difference in end product after they fix their other issues.
I would love to find an industry article comparing the differences of the different chips. I tend to believe Hitachi has actually leap frogged JVC in chip design. Smaller and no dimples. I believe this will make a difference in end product after they fix their other issues.
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Hitachi has no plans on releasing one
JVC RS500U, 2.35:1 125" screen, Marantz AV7705, 11.2 Def Tech speakers, Sunfire Theater Grand 400x7
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Thanks for all the info. All the more reason to make me believe that WXGA or SXGA+ is as good as it gets for a while. And when a 1920x1080 PJ finally does come out, I bet that the prices will be over $10K too. Just my guess of course.
I doubt that it will be 3 years out. The only factor that could prevent it from coming to market sooner would be if there are technological issues that can't be addressed before then, or if a monopoly environment existed.. Even if it is so high priced initially that it would dictate a $20K pricetag, then I believe it would still come to market because there has already been a demonstrated demand for projectors in this (and higher) price ranges for this level of resolution.
I believe if the technology exists to bring this 1920x1080 digital projector to market, it will as soon as they can. If they don't, then someone else will (JVC, surprise entrant), or a competing technology (aka single chip DLP) will. You got to love the free maket mechanism combined with Moore's Law
Cheers,
dagger (still debating on jumping on the 7200 bandwagon now or buy an almost as good half the price PJ and wait another 12 to 18 months.....)
I believe if the technology exists to bring this 1920x1080 digital projector to market, it will as soon as they can. If they don't, then someone else will (JVC, surprise entrant), or a competing technology (aka single chip DLP) will. You got to love the free maket mechanism combined with Moore's Law
Cheers,
dagger (still debating on jumping on the 7200 bandwagon now or buy an almost as good half the price PJ and wait another 12 to 18 months.....)
They are coming...but when.
I have read article after article about demos showing 1920 x 1080 LCOS products. None have been front projection though. There are literally dozens of companies that can make LCOS microdisplays, and dozens of integrators that can build a product around them. Why don't we see them?
Maybe the Economy?
Actually, I tend to believe the bad economy might just bring 1920 x 1080 to market sooner.
1. More competion for the limited dollar, so whatever you must make your product stand out somehow.
2. JVC, Hitachi, Three-five need to recoupe the R&D money they put into the chips in the first place. Why tool up to build it if there's no return.
These guys have been fiddling around with these chips for a while. It's likely just about getting the return out of previous investments. These guys are smart and have learned to protect their markets instead of just be fierce competitors. A bad economy may be the sinking boat that requires some to get in the life raft. Someone will make the first move sooner or later.
My predictions:
JVC wont cause it would kill their QXGA sales and others. Hey there's a lot of margin in a $225k projector. BTW what good is a QXGA projector when they have a 4000 X 3000 chip.
Three-five would like to but are at the mercy of OEMs since they don't directly build a projector. How do we convince them to do FP?
Hitachi might, they do both and seam to be the wildcard. Came out strong but Isn't learning from their mistakes yet.
Sony is playing with someone elses chip. It would only be gravy for them. They might be first since It's not their proprietary product and they could shake up the market. They have a pretty good history of giving people a good product at under the normal market price. Plus they have to maintain their name recognition till their own stuff comes out. (glv?)
There are others, there are also a couple other designs of cheaper and more effeciant light engines for use with LCOS chips. When all these players get together, watchout. The market is gonna change.
Also with Toshiba already delivering a rear projector with the chips for MSRP of $8k It would be stupid to try to do your FP for more. Of course we are stupid so there will always be some that will buy at any price.
How's that for armchair quarterbacking?
I have read article after article about demos showing 1920 x 1080 LCOS products. None have been front projection though. There are literally dozens of companies that can make LCOS microdisplays, and dozens of integrators that can build a product around them. Why don't we see them?
Maybe the Economy?
Actually, I tend to believe the bad economy might just bring 1920 x 1080 to market sooner.
1. More competion for the limited dollar, so whatever you must make your product stand out somehow.
2. JVC, Hitachi, Three-five need to recoupe the R&D money they put into the chips in the first place. Why tool up to build it if there's no return.
These guys have been fiddling around with these chips for a while. It's likely just about getting the return out of previous investments. These guys are smart and have learned to protect their markets instead of just be fierce competitors. A bad economy may be the sinking boat that requires some to get in the life raft. Someone will make the first move sooner or later.
My predictions:
JVC wont cause it would kill their QXGA sales and others. Hey there's a lot of margin in a $225k projector. BTW what good is a QXGA projector when they have a 4000 X 3000 chip.
Three-five would like to but are at the mercy of OEMs since they don't directly build a projector. How do we convince them to do FP?
Hitachi might, they do both and seam to be the wildcard. Came out strong but Isn't learning from their mistakes yet.
Sony is playing with someone elses chip. It would only be gravy for them. They might be first since It's not their proprietary product and they could shake up the market. They have a pretty good history of giving people a good product at under the normal market price. Plus they have to maintain their name recognition till their own stuff comes out. (glv?)
There are others, there are also a couple other designs of cheaper and more effeciant light engines for use with LCOS chips. When all these players get together, watchout. The market is gonna change.
Also with Toshiba already delivering a rear projector with the chips for MSRP of $8k It would be stupid to try to do your FP for more. Of course we are stupid so there will always be some that will buy at any price.
How's that for armchair quarterbacking?
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I would put this another way. It would be stupid of them if they didn't put it in a FP, since we will pay more. Whoever comes out first with a 1920x1080 FP will rake in the money for a little while, IMO. That is assuming a contrast ratio of anything around 800 or above and no glaring colorization problems. Their biggest problem would probably be manufacturing enough of them.
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Good synopsis.
--Darin
| Originally posted by Tryg Also with Toshiba already delivering a rear projector with the chips for MSRP of $8k It would be stupid to try to do your FP for more. Of course we are stupid so there will always be some that will buy at any price. |
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How's that for armchair quarterbacking? |
--Darin
Jeff, that doesn't make sense either.
If they came out tomorrow for $10k then you benefit in every way.
1. They will have perfected it when you are ready for one (in a couple years)
2. I will likely be a lot less money in a couple years. maybe 5k?. Didn't one of your threads complain we are spending to much on this stuff?
3. Others would have to step up and provide some competition raising the bar for all products
4. Maybe it will be soooo good you'll need to trade in the 150 for it.
The bottom line is, the sooner the better for the consumer and the companies. The manufacturers are just trying to string out their revenue chain as long as possible.
BTW they already do have HD software.
If they came out tomorrow for $10k then you benefit in every way.
1. They will have perfected it when you are ready for one (in a couple years)
2. I will likely be a lot less money in a couple years. maybe 5k?. Didn't one of your threads complain we are spending to much on this stuff?
3. Others would have to step up and provide some competition raising the bar for all products
4. Maybe it will be soooo good you'll need to trade in the 150 for it.
The bottom line is, the sooner the better for the consumer and the companies. The manufacturers are just trying to string out their revenue chain as long as possible.
BTW they already do have HD software.
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My money is on Sony because its Sonyif
I didn't actually expect for people to take that comment about a 1920x1080 front projector being 3 years out seriously. If you went to buy a computer and the salesman told you that they had maxed out the processors at 3.1GHz and that they wouldn't getting any faster than that in the next 3 years (so buy now), what would you think?
--Darin
--Darin
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[rant]
Stupid? Does that make all current HD2 fp makers "stupid" for pricing at $10k and up while Samsung is making an rp with the same chip for $4k?
Sorry, but I'm a little bitter on this topic. As long as there are fp customers to gouge, and no aggressive interloper willing to throw out the old pricing structure, high-end fp makers will continue to gouge.
What we need is one of the big consumer electronics giants (NEC, Samsung) to come in and shake things up.
[/rant]
| Originally posted by Tryg Also with Toshiba already delivering a rear projector with the chips for MSRP of $8k It would be stupid to try to do your FP for more. Of course we are stupid so there will always be some that will buy at any price. |
Stupid? Does that make all current HD2 fp makers "stupid" for pricing at $10k and up while Samsung is making an rp with the same chip for $4k?
Sorry, but I'm a little bitter on this topic. As long as there are fp customers to gouge, and no aggressive interloper willing to throw out the old pricing structure, high-end fp makers will continue to gouge.
What we need is one of the big consumer electronics giants (NEC, Samsung) to come in and shake things up.
[/rant]
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Quote:
I think it's just the opposite. With the world economy in the dumps they would LOVE to have the ability to bring out the 1080 projectors. They all would like to have the jump on their competitors. There are many reasons though why they haven't made it a priority.
First, even here on AVS the overwhelming demand is for a 720 device that is cheaper, as close top $5k as possible, if not cheaper. With the limited volume that is shipping I wouldn't assume anyone is now making money on the current HD1/2 models. And they have so far shown that no one knows how to make a perfect and reliable 720 projector just yet.
If there were some overwhelming demand for a 1080 capable projector JVC wouldn't have quit producing the G90 and Vidikron wouldn't have gone belly up.
Consumers are not currently even voting to buy HD capable STBs to enable the effective use of current 720 devices. They are clearly using their projectors for DVDs. Even though I have a HD STB the programming is a joke. I rarely watch HDNet anymore and by the time I see a movie on HBO I have already seen it several times.
I'd love to have a 1080 projector next year too, but I'd much rather have more successful competitors making reliable 720 devices to drive the prices down. So far it's proven to be not as simple as most of the posts around here have predicted.
| Originally posted by Tryg The manufacturers are just trying to string out their revenue chain as long as possible. BTW they already do have HD software. |
First, even here on AVS the overwhelming demand is for a 720 device that is cheaper, as close top $5k as possible, if not cheaper. With the limited volume that is shipping I wouldn't assume anyone is now making money on the current HD1/2 models. And they have so far shown that no one knows how to make a perfect and reliable 720 projector just yet.
If there were some overwhelming demand for a 1080 capable projector JVC wouldn't have quit producing the G90 and Vidikron wouldn't have gone belly up.
Consumers are not currently even voting to buy HD capable STBs to enable the effective use of current 720 devices. They are clearly using their projectors for DVDs. Even though I have a HD STB the programming is a joke. I rarely watch HDNet anymore and by the time I see a movie on HBO I have already seen it several times.
I'd love to have a 1080 projector next year too, but I'd much rather have more successful competitors making reliable 720 devices to drive the prices down. So far it's proven to be not as simple as most of the posts around here have predicted.
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Quote:
The "CE giants" are already making FPs. The largest problem they have is not enough demand to enable them to tool them up for efficient production compared with RPTVs.
BTW I haven't seen many manufacturers jumping in the RPTV arena with cheap HD1/2 units yet. In spite of the TI claims at CES they have been conspicuously absent from the market. TI was even promising a HD1 model for $3k from Vestel. Maybe manufacturers are finding it harder than TI thought to make money at the $3 to $4k price points.
| Originally posted by neutrino [rant] Stupid? Does that make all current HD2 fp makers "stupid" for pricing at $10k and up while Samsung is making an rp with the same chip for $4k? Sorry, but I'm a little bitter on this topic. As long as there are fp customers to gouge, and no aggressive interloper willing to throw out the old pricing structure, high-end fp makers will continue to gouge. What we need is one of the big consumer electronics giants (NEC, Samsung) to come in and shake things up. [/rant] |
BTW I haven't seen many manufacturers jumping in the RPTV arena with cheap HD1/2 units yet. In spite of the TI claims at CES they have been conspicuously absent from the market. TI was even promising a HD1 model for $3k from Vestel. Maybe manufacturers are finding it harder than TI thought to make money at the $3 to $4k price points.
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With all the complaining about so-called price gouging that goes on in this forum, you would think that front projectors are a commodity like gasoline or electricity. These are low-volume luxury items, folks.
If the rest of the home theater marketplace is anything like this forum, you can bet we won't see a 1080p projector until they can figure out a way to sell it under $10K. That will be awhile. I'm hoping this isn't the case.
If the rest of the home theater marketplace is anything like this forum, you can bet we won't see a 1080p projector until they can figure out a way to sell it under $10K. That will be awhile. I'm hoping this isn't the case.
Micheal,
As I think some people have come in and told us, we aren't normal Runco makes a ton of money on projectors and can you imagine how much they could make with a 1080p LCOS. With their clientele I bet they could price the thing at close to $20k and still get a lot of takers. I'm still hoping the first 1920x1080 won't be over about $11k (less than $2k more than an SX21 with anamorphic lens option), but anything that gets out there and gets the ball rolling is good, IMO.
--Darin
As I think some people have come in and told us, we aren't normal
Runco makes a ton of money on projectors and can you imagine how much they could make with a 1080p LCOS. With their clientele I bet they could price the thing at close to $20k and still get a lot of takers. I'm still hoping the first 1920x1080 won't be over about $11k (less than $2k more than an SX21 with anamorphic lens option), but anything that gets out there and gets the ball rolling is good, IMO.--Darin
JVC RS500U, 2.35:1 125" screen, Marantz AV7705, 11.2 Def Tech speakers, Sunfire Theater Grand 400x7
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Quote:
Closer to 18 months, but expect delays if its JVC or DWIN.
And yes, at least 3 years b4 they're affordable.
| Originally posted by darinp Steven, Do you really believe that they are 3 years out? --Darin |
And yes, at least 3 years b4 they're affordable.
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