[DrDon]

threads merged.

 

[holl_ands]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbike-dude /forum/post/14610043


I obviously missed the note about TVFOOL using terrain in the calculations.


The reason I asked was because where my parents live they get many, many more channels then what TVFOOL shows at ground level. When we factored in the height above sea level (with GPS) around 1600 feet TVFOOL showed the rest of the stations that they pick up.


Are there any other sites that do this? I've tried antennaweb too but it is worthless IMO.

You can DIY using (free download) RADIO MOBILE and my spreadsheet:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=12243370

You will need to separately download SRTM-1 Hi-Rez Terrain Maps (default is SRTM-3).

 

[Tower Guy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBiker /forum/post/14609663


If I used the above sea level number for my antenna, TVFool would give very optimistic results. The TVFool calculations assume the number entered for antenna height are above ground level. A 5000 foot antenna height would give me ridiculous results.

Last I knew tvfool limited the antenna height to 500'. Antennaweb also limited the antenna height, but to 10,000 ft.

 

[Digital Rules]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbike-dude /forum/post/14610043


I obviously missed the note about TVFOOL using terrain in the calculations.


The reason I asked was because where my parents live they get many, many more channels then what TVFOOL shows at ground level. When we factored in the height above sea level (with GPS) around 1600 feet TVFOOL showed the rest of the stations that they pick up.


Are there any other sites that do this? I've tried antennaweb too but it is worthless IMO.

Are you using your address, or exact geographical coordinates? I get a much more accurate interpretation with coordinates on TV Fool.

 

[mtnbike-dude]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules /forum/post/14613255


Are you using your address, or exact geographical coordinates? I get a much more accurate interpretation with coordinates on TV Fool.

I'm using my address but will certainly try the coordinates.

Thanks.

 

[PA_MainyYak]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnbike-dude /forum/post/14610043


I obviously missed the note about TVFOOL using terrain in the calculations.


The reason I asked was because where my parents live they get many, many more channels then what TVFOOL shows at ground level. When we factored in the height above sea level (with GPS) around 1600 feet TVFOOL showed the rest of the stations that they pick up.


Are there any other sites that do this? I've tried antennaweb too but it is worthless IMO.

The antenna height input in TV Fool refers to your receiving antenna. It defaults to 25 feet above the ground level at your location. No need to worry about sea level-based calculations.

 

[ziggy29]

It looks like the September 30 transmitter update already shows KTBC in Fox (in Austin) as moved from RF channel 56 to 7. My understanding is that doesn't happen until 2/18/09, when KTBC turns off its analog on 7 and moves the digital signal from 56 to 7.


Is this premature? And is the listed 13.35 kW correct?

 

[Nitewatchman]

Cincinnati/Dayton Area TV fool Corrections (and/or comments)

Both Current+post Transition :


WWRD-LP (analog) is Currently shown in TVfool with their old ch 55 facilities.


They moved to 32 about a year ago, Using the Licensed facilities which show up for them, currently on 32 in FCC's TVquery :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9


Their old, Ch 55 facilities no longer show up in TV Query, so maybe this one is on 55 in TVfool due to an old override ...


---------------------------------------------------------------

Post transition Only - Analog :


this is a bit of a odd/unusual one :


W66AQ Dayton is shown on 66. If I recall correctly, I think stations on ch 60~69 must vacate by analog shut off.


W66AQ has a CP/authorization to move to channel 22 (Callsign change to W22DE) for post-transition -- via repurposing Current WKEF 22 (analog) facilities.


I assume Since WKEF analog is currently on 22, the CP is not easily "apparent" via TVquery. However, there is some info available on it here :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....ion_id=1125566


Unfortunetly, The only place I know (didn't check the CDBS "downloadable" files) of which has the Engineering data for the CP is the Form 346 app for this CP, available here (Note: Link requires a PDF reader) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=11203



And the authorization available via the "get authorization" link available at page at first link above has the Callsign for the CP as "W22DE" , and some abbreviated engineering data (but not info on the DA)


It's just a wild guess, but I'm thinking the "info" on W66AQ on channel 22 (and the W22DE callsign ) won't pop up in TV query/CDBS in the "usual" way until after analog shut off AND until FCC (at some point) removes WKEF 22 analog records (and presumably all other Full service analogs after they go off air 2/17/09) ....


Given the lack of engineering data/"new" callsign for them for 22, Other than on app and in the authorization, I'm not sure what(or if anything should) can be done with this one for TVfool until it "shows up" in CDBS or TVquery .. Which will hopefully be sometime soon after 2/18/09 ... Just a "heads up" regarding this one, FWIW ...


--------------------------------------------------------
Post-Transition Only - Digital :


The following are currently showing up in TVfool per info which matches Maximization "application" Data at TVquery rather than these stations current Post-transition CP's -- Maximization applications which have yet to be approved or denied or acted upon by FCC --Of course if these are approved at some point and become CP/CP Mod, these will be fine, but there is no indication presently, AFAIK whether they will or won't be approved.


DO note All of the stations I checked end up on "this list" which A), Are *not* changing channels post-transition, and B). have both CP's(or licensed facilites), and Apps which have not been acted upon by FCC as of yet, and C). are currently shown on TVfool per the (unacted upon) application data instead of the currently accurate post-transition licensed or CP/CP mod info -- So, I expect this may very well be a widespread issue effecting other stations with this same situation :


WHIO-DT 41 - I noticed this one because Xmit(KW) Column indicates 1000KW ERP for my plot/receive location, which would indicate non DA, instead of the Current DA, which is also the "current" authorized Post-transition facility. (Current TV fool correctly indicates they squirt 36.63Kw ERP in my direction) ... TV Query Link for them here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9


WKOI-DT 39 - Noticed this one because ERP shown is incorrect for their current 370KW CP DA for my location ..555KW ERP is shown in TVfool, which would be correct for my location only for application(not yet approved) File # BPCDT-20080618ATM , 600KW ERP with DA ..

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...lon2=46&size=9


WSTR-DT 33 - This one is a little difficult to tell for sure given some of the different apps/facilities specified aren't that different ... However, for my location, 711 KW ERP is shown in TV fool, which per my math (closest I could get "manually" calculating with the relatvie field values shown in 10 degree bearings) would indicate this could probably only be the 1000KW APP, rather than the 900 KW ERP (current) post-transition CP :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...lon2=46&size=9


However, there is one station I checked -- WBDT, Dayton Which is the only one in area currently For which the following(currently) is true : A). They are Changing channels post transition(from 18 to 26) B). have both a Post transition CP (50KW ERP on 26 ) and C). has other maximization App(770KW ERP DA for 26) not yet approved/acted upon which currently pops up on TV query -- And, in this case Unlike the stations listed above(all in area which aren't moving and have both Licensed facilites or CP's AND "unacted upon" maximization apps) the TVfool post-transition plot for WBDT-DT currently correctly is using the Current, Post-transition CP Data ...

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...lon2=46&size=9


------------------


Everything else Looks good ...


As allways, Thanks Andy!

 

[PA_MainyYak]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman /forum/post/14782637


Post transition Only - Analog :


this is a bit of a odd/unusual one :


W66AQ Dayton is shown on 66. If I recall correctly, I think stations on ch 60~69 must vacate by analog shut off.

A quick note, low power stations are not included in the digital transition deadline, and many will remain both analog and out of core for the time being.

 

[dattier]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PA_MainyYak /forum/post/14784339


A quick note, low power stations are not included in the digital transition deadline, and many will remain both analog and out of core for the time being.

Please explain (not necessarily PA_MainyYak, but someone): of course low-power and Class A stations are allowed to remain analog for a while, but how can those that are out of core stay there if the frequencies are being auctioned off for other uses?  Won't they have to move to in-core channels, even for the rest of the time that they stay analog?

 

[mattdp]

I second that question. Nobody's really ever explained this.


Personally, I think the LPTV stations want to convert to digital ASAP. As of 2/17, every OTA viewer will (hopefully) have a DTV converter, some of which don't have analog passthrough. Plus, I'll bet good money a ton of people won't want to ever watch analog TV again (I know I don't). It's like when we all moved to DVDs in the early '00s. The first time I saw one, I didn't want to go back to VHS.


I think it's in LPTV's best interest to go digital by 2/17 or soon after.

 

[Tower Guy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp /forum/post/14786671


I think it's in LPTV's best interest to go digital by 2/17 or soon after.

I third it!

 

[MeowMeow]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp /forum/post/14786671


I second that question. Nobody's really ever explained this.

Very simply put, the government is playing jazz.


Odds are high that since the first licensee on a channel has a right to it, any company whose service would displace an LP is probably going to have to front the LP station's cost of moving to a new channel. That's not the law, but it would be the most expeditious solution and would likely be the ruling of any court confronted with the question.

Quote:
I think it's in LPTV's best interest to go digital by 2/17 or soon after.

I'm sure they would. But, stations feel the financial pinch. Bringing in all the new equipment to go digital is going to be cost prohibitive for many operations.

 

[johnpost]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp /forum/post/14786671



I think it's in LPTV's best interest to go digital by 2/17 or soon after.

all the educational network translators in my state are going dtv in November.

 

[mattdp]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowMeow /forum/post/14786753


I'm sure they would. But, stations feel the financial pinch. Bringing in all the new equipment to go digital is going to be cost prohibitive for many operations.

I mean, the dates have been set in stone for what... 10 years? They should have started saving up then.

 

[Nitewatchman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PA_MainyYak /forum/post/14784339


A quick note, low power stations are not included in the digital transition deadline, and many will remain both analog and out of core for the time being.

On 52-59 if they don't interfere with new services there, but If I recall correctly and I'd have to do some digging+look it up to say for sure, but I think those on 60-69 have to be off ...


Update -- Ok, here's some info -- Unless something has changed(which is possible but I couldn't find any info on it other than involving the Channel 60~69 reallocation order+Channel 52~59 reallocation order from the 90's), There's the below quoted mention of this in Paragraph 61 of FCC Report and Order on LP Digital rules from 2004, available here :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-04-220A1.pdf


Regarding 60-69, I've bolded the portion of paragraph 61 of particular interest :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portion of paragraph 61 of R&O at above link /forum/post/0


61. With regard to channels 60-69, we sought comment on whether these channels should be made available for new digital LPTV and TV translator stations and/or digital conversions of existing analog stations. In the Channel 60-69 Reallocation Order, the Commission decided that, in view of their secondary status, it would continue to authorize LPTV and TV translator service on these channels until the end of the DTV transition. We noted, however, that, by statute, all TV broadcasters, including LPTV and TV translators, must vacate the use of this spectrum after the DTV transition ends. The Commission concluded that the statute left it no discretion in clearing LPTV and TV translator stations from the band at the end of the transition period......

Regarding Ch. 52~59, From the same document, portion of paragraph #60 :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portion of Paragraph 60 of R&O at above link /forum/post/0


.... We noted that in the Channel 52-59 Reallocation Order, the Commission permitted LPTV and TV translator stations to operate indefinitely on these channels on a non-interfering basis and to negotiate interference agreements with new primary service providers....

 

[dattier]

Thank you, Jeff.  May we gather that "the end of the transition period" means the end of the transition period for full-power stations, i.e., February 17, 2009?

 

[Falcon_77]

Jeff,


Thank you for clearing that up about 52-69 for LP/TX stations. There are 3 LP/TX/Booster stations in the LA area that will have to move then, though 69 is already has a duplicate broadcast below channel 60. There is one TX station on 57, but we will see when/if they end up moving.


Considering the congestion of the TV band in some areas (in the 7-13 & 22-51 range) and the lack of available channels, 52-59 should have been left for TV broadcasting (including full power), especially if we end up sharing what's left with WSD's, but it's a bit late for that now.


Land Mobile takes out most of the 14-21 range in some big cities that are in most need of additional channels (especially Philadelphia/New York/DC).

 

[MeowMeow]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp /forum/post/14788339


I mean, the dates have been set in stone for what... 10 years? They should have started saving up then.

First, it was always understood that LPs would get some leeway. Second, you're really failing to understand how difficult this transition will be for many low-power operations. To just shrug it off and say, "Well, they've had time" ignores the expenses and difficulties.


Once all of the full power stations convert, equipment costs will go down and more expertise and manpower will be available. Then the transition will bleed over to the LPs.


But don't be surprised if a number of LPs never make the transition. There are stations running on such low budgets that if the feds force them digital, it's going to be more cost effective to go off the air for good.

 

[mattdp]

I'm not doubting that it's hard for LPs. I certainly wouldn't want to be one right now.


I guess what I'm saying is ...they have had a decade to plan for the transition.


I probably overlooked some little LPs operating out of some guy's basement.


All the LP stations around here are either owned by a full-power station to extend their coverage area, or are TBN/3ABN translators. I know for a fact that TBN isn't exactly scraping by, and they've got a vested interest in digital TV with their five channel digital multicast.