AVS Forum banner
1 - 8 of 8 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone! I was wondering if someone would be willing to give me some feedback on my adventures with DVE.


I have a small Panasonic CT24sx10 CRT TV, a Sony DVD player connected by component video inputs, and a copy of DVE. Though the TV has a small screen, I feel like (as with Charlie Brown's Christmas tree) it just needs some love, and so I have been trying to calibrate it using DVE as best as I can.


Since I have no access to a colorimeter, I set the TV's color temperature setting to Warm (other options are Cool or Normal). Next, trying to set Brightness, I find that what looks right for a screen with low average picture level doesn't work well when the average picture level is high. I don't mind this too much, so I go on and set the Contrast as best as I can as well.


I next use the blue filter to adjust the Color setting. After Color and Tint are set up as well as I can using the blue filter, I look through the red and green filters and to my dismay see what are described as color decoder errors! Red definitely seems too strong -- through the red filter, the red square is quite a lot brighter than the magenta one.


I understand that there may be ways to adjust the color decoder in my set's service menu. I go into the service menu, writing all settings down, and "try stuff" since I do not have the service manual for this set -- just descriptions of adjustments for other Panasonic TV's, obtained from the Web. I find that one adjustment, with settings 0 to 7, adjusts the relative levels of red, green and blue viewed through the filters as I change the setting. They don't seem to change gradually, but some settings seem to push red more than others, and some seem to push blue more than others, etc.


Question 1: is this adjustment allowing me to select different color decoder settings (it seems to be), and is it okay for me to choose something other than the factory settings? (Note: another adjustment seems to do the same thing, but on the TV's non-component inputs).



To my amazement, I find that one setting of this adjustment allows me to get a "perfect" color bar pattern as viewed through the DVE red filter, and this same setting produces a very good pattern when viewed through the green filter. When viewed through the blue filter, the Color seems a bit low (blue squares are dark against the gray background), but I feel hesitant to crank it higher because the red and green results are so good.


Question 2: when I adjust the set so that the patterns look very good through the red and green filters, viewing DVD content reveals a strong red cast -- flesh tones are noticeably overly red. What is wrong here?



I finally choose a setting where red and magenta, when viewed through the red filter, look the same as each other but are darker than the gray background. Through the green filter, green and cyan look the same as each other, but are also darker than the gray background. Things look reasonable through the blue filter.


Question 3: is this last setting, with red and green seemingly under-driven with respect to blue, possibly my "correct" setting? DVD content seems to look good with this setting.



I like to tweak things, but I don't understand why having the color settings for red and green correct (according to DVE's filters and patterns) results in a picture which seems wrong.


Does anyone have any advice or observations?


(PS: If you got this far, thanks for reading -- I appreciate all the insights I find on this forum!)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
889 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkc /forum/post/0


Hi everyone! I was wondering if someone would be willing to give me some feedback on my adventures with DVE.


I have a small Panasonic CT24sx10 CRT TV, a Sony DVD player connected by component video inputs, and a copy of DVE. Though the TV has a small screen, I feel like (as with Charlie Brown's Christmas tree) it just needs some love, and so I have been trying to calibrate it using DVE as best as I can.


Since I have no access to a colorimeter, I set the TV's color temperature setting to Warm (other options are Cool or Normal). Next, trying to set Brightness, I find that what looks right for a screen with low average picture level doesn't work well when the average picture level is high. I don't mind this too much, so I go on and set the Contrast as best as I can as well.


I next use the blue filter to adjust the Color setting. After Color and Tint are set up as well as I can using the blue filter, I look through the red and green filters and to my dismay see what are described as color decoder errors! Red definitely seems too strong -- through the red filter, the red square is quite a lot brighter than the magenta one.


I understand that there may be ways to adjust the color decoder in my set's service menu. I go into the service menu, writing all settings down, and "try stuff" since I do not have the service manual for this set -- just descriptions of adjustments for other Panasonic TV's, obtained from the Web. I find that one adjustment, with settings 0 to 7, adjusts the relative levels of red, green and blue viewed through the filters as I change the setting. They don't seem to change gradually, but some settings seem to push red more than others, and some seem to push blue more than others, etc.


Question 1: is this adjustment allowing me to select different color decoder settings (it seems to be), and is it okay for me to choose something other than the factory settings? (Note: another adjustment seems to do the same thing, but on the TV's non-component inputs).


**That is probably the "Axis" setting for the color decoder - at least that's what it's called on my WEGA. Leave it at factory unless you have the proper sensors & equipment(ie: you are an ISF calibrator).



To my amazement, I find that one setting of this adjustment allows me to get a "perfect" color bar pattern as viewed through the DVE red filter, and this same setting produces a very good pattern when viewed through the green filter. When viewed through the blue filter, the Color seems a bit low (blue squares are dark against the gray background), but I feel hesitant to crank it higher because the red and green results are so good.


Question 2: when I adjust the set so that the patterns look very good through the red and green filters, viewing DVD content reveals a strong red cast -- flesh tones are noticeably overly red. What is wrong here?


**What is wrong is that you should align color & hue via the BLUE filter. The red & green filters serve one purpose. Think about it - what colors does the hue control affect? That's right, red & green. Look for over/under emphasis in the red or green, then adjust color saturation accordingly. Leave hue alone during decoder check.



I finally choose a setting where red and magenta, when viewed through the red filter, look the same as each other but are darker than the gray background. Through the green filter, green and cyan look the same as each other, but are also darker than the gray background. Things look reasonable through the blue filter.


**Forget the background, you want the red & magenta to match via red filter.


Question 3: is this last setting, with red and green seemingly under-driven with respect to blue, possibly my "correct" setting? DVD content seems to look good with this setting.



I like to tweak things, but I don't understand why having the color settings for red and green correct (according to DVE's filters and patterns) results in a picture which seems wrong.


Does anyone have any advice or observations?


**As I said before - blue filters or blue only - is the correct, and ONLY way to set color & hue.


(PS: If you got this far, thanks for reading -- I appreciate all the insights I find on this forum!)


See my **inserts above**.


Report back with your blue results.


regards,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the reply. I will make sure that the settings appear correct in the blue filter first, before making any further adjustments.


Just to be clear -- if the color bars appear correct through the blue filter, as long as the red and magenta look identical through the red filter (and the green and cyan through the green filter) *even though they appear darker than the gray background*, that is what to aim for? That seems a bit different from what the DVE instructions say to do (the "different from the background" part)


Thanks again.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
889 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkc /forum/post/0


Thanks for the reply. I will make sure that the settings appear correct in the blue filter first, before making any further adjustments.


Just to be clear -- if the color bars appear correct through the blue filter, as long as the red and magenta look identical through the red filter (and the green and cyan through the green filter) *even though they appear darker than the gray background*, that is what to aim for? That seems a bit different from what the DVE instructions say to do (the "different from the background" part)


Thanks again.


The red "pairs" - above the 3 holes and those below, should approximate each other. That is they should appear the same intensity. (the left square may be brighter than the left, IE, for each pair). If you try to get them to match the background, intensity-wise, you will be chasing your tail. 9 times out of 10 your final color control setting will be a lot lower after checking red & green.


Most people align color & hue with the blue pattern, and although that is correct for a studio-grade monitor with a proper color decoder, it usually means that one of the colors on their consumer-grade TV will be over emphasized. Stopping there means Brian Williams or Vanna White will all appear feverish - or at best - cartoon like.


regards,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,495 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkc

Question 1: is this adjustment allowing me to select different color decoder settings (it seems to be), and is it okay for me to choose something other than the factory settings? (Note: another adjustment seems to do the same thing, but on the TV's non-component inputs).


**That is probably the "Axis" setting for the color decoder - at least that's what it's called on my WEGA. Leave it at factory unless you have the proper sensors & equipment(ie: you are an ISF calibrator).

You do not need special equipment or sensors to adjust color decoding (i.e. axis controls, there are usually two or more). These are adjusted while looking through colored filters or by selectively turning on individual color guns (red, green or blue). First set saturation and hue using blue. Then use axis controls to adjust red and green; using standard color bars, the objective is to get the each bar containing the color being viewed (red or green) to look the same. It is an iterative process, and you may have to go back and check blue periodically.



To my amazement, I find that one setting of this adjustment allows me to get a "perfect" color bar pattern as viewed through the DVE red filter, and this same setting produces a very good pattern when viewed through the green filter. When viewed through the blue filter, the Color seems a bit low (blue squares are dark against the gray background), but I feel hesitant to crank it higher because the red and green results are so good.



Question 2: when I adjust the set so that the patterns look very good through the red and green filters, viewing DVD content reveals a strong red cast -- flesh tones are noticeably overly red. What is wrong here?


**What is wrong is that you should align color & hue via the BLUE filter. The red & green filters serve one purpose. Think about it - what colors does the hue control affect? That's right, red & green. Look for over/under emphasis in the red or green, then adjust color saturation accordingly. Leave hue alone during decoder check.

Color decoding might not be causing this problem, it could be that the gray scale is off.



I finally choose a setting where red and magenta, when viewed through the red filter, look the same as each other but are darker than the gray background. Through the green filter, green and cyan look the same as each other, but are also darker than the gray background. Things look reasonable through the blue filter.


**Forget the background, you want the red & magenta to match via red filter.



Question 3: is this last setting, with red and green seemingly under-driven with respect to blue, possibly my "correct" setting? DVD content seems to look good with this setting.



I like to tweak things, but I don't understand why having the color settings for red and green correct (according to DVE's filters and patterns) results in a picture which seems wrong.


Does anyone have any advice or observations?


**As I said before - blue filters or blue only - is the correct, and ONLY way to set color & hue.

If the color decoding is accurate (and it often isn't), color and hue can be set using any of the primary colors, and the results will be the same.


(PS: If you got this far, thanks for reading -- I appreciate all the insights I find on this forum!)
See my comments above.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by slb /forum/post/0

Color decoding might not be causing this problem, it could be that the gray scale is off.

This thread caught my attention because I also have a standard def Panny CRT. I've been having a similar problem. Normal light situations on my DVDs look really great, like outdoor scenes and whatnot. However, when it is a low light environment, everything has a red tone to it. Dark scenes in movies seem way too red. Could this be a gray scale issue also? I've been in the service menu to record values, but I don't want to start poking around too much until I'm good and ready.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,495 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by lanzarlaluna /forum/post/0


I've been having a similar problem. Normal light situations on my DVDs look really great, like outdoor scenes and whatnot. However, when it is a low light environment, everything has a red tone to it. Dark scenes in movies seem way too red. Could this be a gray scale issue also?

It could be a gray scale issue. The best way to tell is to use Avia or DVE to display a gray steps pattern. If you see color contamination, then use the RGB cuts and gains to acheive a neutral color of gray. Use the cuts to adjust the dark end of the gray scale and gains to adjust the bright end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Update:


I went back to the factory settings for the mysterious service menu settings (some crawling of the Web seemed to indicate they might be "RGB Matrix" and "RGB Matrix YUV" settings for the set, which leads me to believe they are indeed axis settings) to see what I could do. With factory settings, I had to knock colour way down to match the blue patches and gray patches in the DVE color bars + gray pattern. Looking through red, the red and magenta bars were way off -- adjusting tint to bring them into alignment resulted in the cyan and magenta patches mismatching hugely as viewed through the blue filter. Therefore, I came to think that alternate axis settings (if indeed that's what they are) might end up working better for me.


While I have read that gray scale and color decoding are supposed to be mutually independent, changing this axis setting does result in color shifts to the gray background. Also, viewing the gray bars in the black level setting screens, changing the axis made darker bars change from neutral gray to varying degrees of reddishness.


For now, I have chosen an axis setting which allows me to set color through blue quite accurately, and which lets me bring red and magenta into balance through the red filter. Green and cyan are very close viewed through the green filter. The red bar (through red) and green bar (through green) are both darker than the 75% gray background.


This seems to work quite well -- flesh tones seem very close, if not bang on. I do find that browns (especially darker ones) feel a bit green-tinged. I have a feeling that this has to do with gray scale shifting as the IRE value of the gray changes (is this the correct terminology?). I don't want to mess with drive/cut settings without some better way of measuring color temperature, so I'm just thinking I'll call it a day at this point.


Thanks for all the input... if you have more for me, I'd love to hear it!


PS: D-6500, thanks again for yout input. I didn't entirely understand what you were referring to in your second post (#4), with respect to the "holes" and "pairs"... I couldn't quite figure that out. Sorry to be dense!
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top