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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've managed to get my HD2600XT to display OK on an old CRT TV via SCART RGB at [email protected] with Powerstrip using the following settings:


"720x480" 15.101 720 770 842 968 480 505 510 564 interlace +hsync +vsync


which looks like this in Powerstrip:
http://www.idiots.org.uk/vga_rgb_sca...resolution.gif


I thought I might be able to get the PC to default to these settings by modifying the EDID info, but that didn't work. Obviously there's no actual EDID info sent from the TV, and XP only identifies "Default Monitor" and "Generic TV" (I think the latter applies to the S-Video TV output), but I used Monitor Asset Manager to generate the EDID line for the above settings and copied that into the registry for the two display entries. Before this the only option in CCC was 60hz and after there were some extra choices (I think they were 47hz and 56hz) but not 50hz strangely. Either way, the TV's out-of-sync until I load Powerstrip and it sets the right timings.


So is there any way to default XP to the correct settings, or do I just have to use Powerstrip?


Also, should I be able to go to 720x576 or 768x576 as I thought I read that would work (and the former is the PAL SDTV standard I believe) but when I try, it's in sync but kind of zoomed in so that I can only see the center of the desktop. I used the following timings:


"[email protected]" 13.5 720 732 795 864 576 581 586 625 interlace +hsync +vsync

"[email protected]" 14.75 768 789 858 944 576 581 586 625 interlace +hsync +vsync
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by doveman /forum/post/20847267


I've managed to get my HD2600XT to display OK on an old CRT TV via SCART RGB at [email protected] with Powerstrip using the following settings:


"720x480" 15.101 720 770 842 968 480 505 510 564 interlace +hsync +vsync


which looks like this in Powerstrip:
http://www.idiots.org.uk/vga_rgb_sca...resolution.gif

720x480 and 720x576 are non-square pixel modes - and with most OSs will give you odd shaped pictures.


When I ran my RGB SCART -> VGA cable about 5 years ago (with XP MCE and an old Radeon card into my 16:9 Sony WEGA 28" CRT) I designed square-pixel 1024x576/50Hz modes and 854x480/60Hz 16:9 mdoes for 16:9. This meant the UI was 16:9 (fonts the right shape) and also the Media Center guide looked nicer (and you got more programme informaton on-screen!)


The timing was tricky to get right but it was pretty good for 16:9 stuff. (MCE will pillarbox 4:3 content into a 16:9 frame so I didn't bother with custom 768x576 and 640x480 4:3 modes)

Quote:
I thought I might be able to get the PC to default to these settings by modifying the EDID info, but that didn't work. Obviously there's no actual EDID info sent from the TV, and XP only identifies "Default Monitor" and "Generic TV" (I think the latter applies to the S-Video TV output), but I used Monitor Asset Manager to generate the EDID line for the above settings and copied that into the registry for the two display entries. Before this the only option in CCC was 60hz and after there were some extra choices (I think they were 47hz and 56hz) but not 50hz strangely. Either way, the TV's out-of-sync until I load Powerstrip and it sets the right timings.


So is there any way to default XP to the correct settings, or do I just have to use Powerstrip?


Also, should I be able to go to 720x576 or 768x576 as I thought I read that would work (and the former is the PAL SDTV standard I believe) but when I try, it's in sync but kind of zoomed in so that I can only see the center of the desktop. I used the following timings:


"[email protected]" 13.5 720 732 795 864 576 581 586 625 interlace +hsync +vsync

"[email protected]" 14.75 768 789 858 944 576 581 586 625 interlace +hsync +vsync

I used Powerstrip.


The zoomed in issue is because CRTs overscan (and flat panels simulate it). Not a problem in MCE - but in normal Windows it's a pain (by making the task bar taller you can at least partially solve it). I used to use VNC to remotely log in from a laptop to do normal Windows stuff on the HTPC connected to the SCART TV. (Also useful for when Powerstrip didn't start...)


There is also a registry hack in MCE to avoid it trying to simulate overscan which caused nasty scaling/interlace tearing artefacts on 50i motion. (I was using the nVidia PureVideo MPEG2 decoder)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 /forum/post/20849674


720x480 and 720x576 are non-square pixel modes - and with most OSs will give you odd shaped pictures.

Sorry, that was a mistake. I'm currently running at 720x540 with the settings shown in that picture.

Quote:
When I ran my RGB SCART -> VGA cable about 5 years ago (with XP MCE and an old Radeon card into my 16:9 Sony WEGA 28" CRT) I designed square-pixel 1024x576/50Hz modes and 854x480/60Hz 16:9 mdoes for 16:9. This meant the UI was 16:9 (fonts the right shape) and also the Media Center guide looked nicer (and you got more programme informaton on-screen!)


The timing was tricky to get right but it was pretty good for 16:9 stuff. (MCE will pillarbox 4:3 content into a 16:9 frame so I didn't bother with custom 768x576 and 640x480 4:3 modes)

That's useful to know. I'm running Mediaportal, which will also pillarbox 4:3 content but I need to check with my brother (who I'm building this HTPC for), whether his TV is 4:3 or 16:9. I've only got access to a 4:3 SCART TV though, so it might be a bit tricky for me to set it up properly in 16:9! 1024x576/50Hz sounds like it might be a good setting for a 16:9 TV though and I guess I should be able to get the timings/sync right even on a 4:3 TV.

Quote:
I used Powerstrip.


The zoomed in issue is because CRTs overscan (and flat panels simulate it). Not a problem in MCE - but in normal Windows it's a pain (by making the task bar taller you can at least partially solve it). I used to use VNC to remotely log in from a laptop to do normal Windows stuff on the HTPC connected to the SCART TV. (Also useful for when Powerstrip didn't start...)

I used Powerstrip too. I just posted the timings like that as that's how they were given in the Wiki where I found them. I don't think this was a overscan problem, as all I could see on the TV was something like the top left quarter of the desktop, including part of CCC.


I'm testing on another PC with HD3300 IGP at the moment. 720x540 works fine, but when I try and setup 768x576 Powerstrip says it has to restart Windows to test whether the driver has accepted the resolution and after restarting, it's not an option on Powerstrip's resolution slider, although it does show under User Defined resolutions. The Settings I used are:

Horizontal: 768, 16, 21, 69, 86

Vertical: 576, 25, 5, 5, 39


If you've got the timings you used for your 1024x576/50Hz modes and 854x480/60Hz resolutions that would be very helpful as I've got no idea where to start for those
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by doveman /forum/post/20850114


Sorry, that was a mistake. I'm currently running at 720x540 with the settings shown in that picture.

Ah - would only run with 576 lines if you are using it for UK video - that way you get 1:1 line matching. Anything else is likely to look pretty nasty.

Quote:
That's useful to know. I'm running Mediaportal, which will also pillarbox 4:3 content but I need to check with my brother (who I'm building this HTPC for), whether his TV is 4:3 or 16:9. I've only got access to a 4:3 SCART TV though, so it might be a bit tricky for me to set it up properly in 16:9! 1024x576/50Hz sounds like it might be a good setting for a 16:9 TV though and I guess I should be able to get the timings/sync right even on a 4:3 TV.

1024x576/50Hz modes will work on a 4:3 TV - it will just appear horizontally squashed (so everything will look tall and thin)

Quote:
I used Powerstrip too. I just posted the timings like that as that's how they were given in the Wiki where I found them. I don't think this was a overscan problem, as all I could see on the TV was something like the top left quarter of the desktop, including part of CCC.

Ah - that sounds very odd. I didn't ever try with nVidia as they didn't do Composite (i.e. mixed H and V) syncs when I looked at using them - only Radeons would do them (and I didn't want to build a sync combining cable.)

Quote:
I'm testing on another PC with HD3300 IGP at the moment. 720x540 works fine, but when I try and setup 768x576 Powerstrip says it has to restart Windows to test whether the driver has accepted the resolution and after restarting, it's not an option on Powerstrip's resolution slider, although it does show under User Defined resolutions. The Settings I used are:

Horizontal: 768, 16, 21, 69, 86

Vertical: 576, 25, 5, 5, 39


If you've got the timings you used for your 1024x576/50Hz modes and 854x480/60Hz resolutions that would be very helpful as I've got no idea where to start for those

I'm afraid they've gone the way of all things - they may be lurking somewhere on google as quite a few people in the UK used them. Think the forum I posted them mainly in is now defunct.


These might be useful : PowerStrip timing parameters:

1024x576=1024,109,48,147,576,5,5,39,20846,41


Generic timing details for 1024x576:

HFP=109 HSW=48 HBP=147 kHz=16 VFP=5 VSW=5 VBP=39 Hz=25


VESA detailed timing details:

PClk=20846.00 H.Active=1024 H.Blank=304 H.Offset=93 HSW=48 V.Active=576 V.Blank=49 V.Offset=5 VSW=5


Linux modeline parameters:

"1024x576" 20.846 1024 1133 1181 1328 576 581 586 625 interlace +hsync +vsync


from here :

http://www.avforums.com/forums/compu...rt-rgb-11.html



AND - Here's a post I wrote from years gone by that worked for me:


PowerStrip timing parameters:

1024x576=1024,32,96,112,576,5,5,39,19750,312


Generic timing details for 1024x576:

HFP=32 HSW=96 HBP=112 kHz=16 VFP=5 VSW=5 VBP=39 Hz=25


Linux modeline parameters:

"1024x576" 19.750 1024 1056 1152 1264 576 581 586 625 interlace +hsync

+vsync
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 /forum/post/20852335


Ah - would only run with 576 lines if you are using it for UK video - that way you get 1:1 line matching. Anything else is likely to look pretty nasty.

Well it's going to be a bit of a mix really. UK SDTV (freeview) and DVDs, but also NTSC DVDs and video files. The latter should look OK still though shouldn't they, just not using all the height of the screen?


Quote:
1024x576/50Hz modes will work on a 4:3 TV - it will just appear horizontally squashed (so everything will look tall and thin)

That's cool then, I'll still be able to check I've got the timings right.

Quote:
Ah - that sounds very odd. I didn't ever try with nVidia as they didn't do Composite (i.e. mixed H and V) syncs when I looked at using them - only Radeons would do them (and I didn't want to build a sync combining cable.)

Yeah as far as I'm aware only ATI/Radeon cards support this.


Quote:
I'm afraid they've gone the way of all things - they may be lurking somewhere on google as quite a few people in the UK used them. Think the forum I posted them mainly in is now defunct.


These might be useful : PowerStrip timing parameters:

1024x576=1024,109,48,147,576,5,5,39,20846,41


Generic timing details for 1024x576:

HFP=109 HSW=48 HBP=147 kHz=16 VFP=5 VSW=5 VBP=39 Hz=25


VESA detailed timing details:

PClk=20846.00 H.Active=1024 H.Blank=304 H.Offset=93 HSW=48 V.Active=576 V.Blank=49 V.Offset=5 VSW=5


Linux modeline parameters:

"1024x576" 20.846 1024 1133 1181 1328 576 581 586 625 interlace +hsync +vsync


from here :

http://www.avforums.com/forums/compu...rt-rgb-11.html



AND - Here's a post I wrote from years gone by that worked for me:


PowerStrip timing parameters:

1024x576=1024,32,96,112,576,5,5,39,19750,312


Generic timing details for 1024x576:

HFP=32 HSW=96 HBP=112 kHz=16 VFP=5 VSW=5 VBP=39 Hz=25


Linux modeline parameters:

"1024x576" 19.750 1024 1056 1152 1264 576 581 586 625 interlace +hsync

+vsync

Thanks very much for those. I'll go and give them a try
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by doveman /forum/post/20853112


Well it's going to be a bit of a mix really. UK SDTV (freeview) and DVDs, but also NTSC DVDs and video files. The latter should look OK still though shouldn't they, just not using all the height of the screen?

You'll want a 60Hz mode for US content - it will look horrible at 50Hz - so you might as well line-match that as well - rather than doing a scale.


Find a 854x480/60Hz interlaced mode for that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000 /forum/post/20854573


You'll want a 60Hz mode for US content - it will look horrible at 50Hz - so you might as well line-match that as well - rather than doing a scale.


Find a 854x480/60Hz interlaced mode for that.

I don't know if my brother's TV will support 60hz but if it turns out it does I'll certainly try and sort out a suitable mode for it, although it'll be tricky as the SCART TV I've got doesn't support 60hz, so I'd have to try and do it remotely once it's connected to his TV (which I won't be able to see!) A lot of stuff seems to be at 23.976 FPS anyway, which Reclock nicely ups to 25 FPS to look OK at 50hz.


Strangely, I run a 60hz-only HDTV (I got it cheap!) at 720p and have no problem watching 50hz content (including Freeview) on it. I don't know if the ATI card does something clever to make it look OK, or if I just don't particularly notice any problems.


What do region-free DVD players do to make NTSC content look OK on a UK 50hz TV?
 

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If it has a SCART socket and was sold after about 1990 it is very likely it will support 60Hz via RGB SCART. Certainly every Sony set I've owned since 1993 has. I'd be more surprised if it didn't support 60Hz than if it did - though some early 100Hz CRTs didn't like 60Hz.


I can't watch 50Hz content at 60Hz - particularly native interlaced stuff - as the 10Hz judder caused by repeating every 5th frame screams at me. Watching any tickers on the news channels and you go from nice smooth fluid motion to juddery nastiness.


However I accept I'm a bit more susceptible to sub-par video quality as in my day job I watch broadcast quality stuff and part of my job is to spot those kind of artefacts and reject them!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yeah, tickers and panning don't look very good but I think I've built up a tolerance for the jerkiness. It will be nice to get a 24/50/60hz TV one day though



The thing I get obsessed about is calibrating the greyscale, contrast and brightness, hue and tint, etc. It's rather hard to calibrate properly seeing as I haven't got a colorimeter, so I'm stuck fretting about how out of whack my TV probably is, but it's probably not too bad really. I'll find out for sure one day



As for this PC I'm trying to set up, as well as 720x480 and 1024x576, I've now got 854x480 working at what appears to be (close to) 60hz interlaced with the following timings:

HFP=21 HSW=85 HBP=106 kHz=15.944 VFP=2 VSW=3 VBP=12 Hz=30.476


I find it hard to know what the exact correct settings are though, as it stays in sync from 30.381 - 32.08hz, with each increase noticeably squashing the image, so it can't be correctly proportioned throughout this range.


I think I still need to get 768x576 working as well don't I, for proper display of PAL material? I'm still struggling with that one, as it results in a zoomed in image showing roughly the top half of the desktop!


I guess I need another 60hz resolution for widescreen as well don't I?
 

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4 resolutions :


768 x 576 / 50i for a 4:3 50Hz display

640 x 480 / 60i for a 4:3 60Hz display

1024 x 576 / 50i for a 16:9 50Hz display

854 x 480 / 60i for a 16:9 60Hz display


Horizontal line rate should be 15.625kHz for 50Hz displays and 15.73425Hz for 60hz displays (if you run at 59.94Hz which is what NTSC material actually runs at) or 15.750kHz for 60Hz (which isn't common for source material)


Total line count should be 625 for 50Hz, 525 for 60Hz.

Refresh rate should be 25 or 50Hz for 50Hz, 29.97 or 59.94Hz for 60Hz ideally.


Total line time should be 64us, and active line time should be 52us for 50Hz. Don't have the exact figures for 60Hz to hand but something like 63.55us and 52.66us respectively for total and active.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks. I've been able to tweak the 854x480 setting to:

Horizontal:

Scan rate - 15.735 (it jumps to this if I type in 15.73425)

Active 854 pixels 50.915us

FP 21 pixels 1.252us

SW 85 pixels 5.068us

BP 106 pixels 6.320us

Total 1066 pixels 63.555us


Vertical:

Refresh Rate 29.971

Active 480 lines 30.506us

FP 2 lines 0.127us

SW 31 lines 1.970us

BP 12 lines 0.763us

Total 525 lines 33.366 ms


and for 1024x576:

Horizontal:

Scan rate - 15.625

Active 1024 pixels 49.349us (can't change this)

FP 109 pixels 5.253us

SW 48 pixels 2.313us

BP 147 pixels 7.084us

Total 1328 pixels 64us


Vertical:

Refresh Rate 25

Active 576 lines 36.864us

FP 5 lines 0.320us

SW 5 lines 0.320us

BP 39 lines 2.496us

Total 625 lines 40 ms


I still can't get the 4:3 resolutions (768x576 and 640x480) working though. I just noticed the "Create a resolution within a resolution" button in Powerstrip and on 768x576, the window I have to create to fit the screen is 702x278 if that gives you any clue as to what's wrong.
 

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Can you alter the pixel clock rate? The active line times are out a bit - which means your image will be squashed horizontally in the two modes you've created?


In an ideal world, horizontally, you need to be able to have something like :


1260 total pixels each line for 1024 active pixels for 1024x576 at 50Hz.


This means 1260 x 625 x 25 pixels per second = 19.6875MHz is the pixel clock you need. If you can't achieve that then something close?


So assuming the following HORIZONTAL timings :


Total line = 64us = 1260 pixels

Active line = 52us = 1024 pixels

Horizontal blanking = 12us = 236 pixels

Line sync width = 4.7us = 93 pixels

Front porch = 1.65us = 32 pixels

Back porch = what's left = 5.65us = 111 pixels


Following the same maths for 768x576/50Hz :


For 768 active pixels each line, you have a total of 945 pixels each line?

945 x 625 x 25 pixels per second = 14.765625 MHz pixel clock?


Total line = 64us = 945 pixels

Active line = 52us = 768 pixels

Horizontal blanking = 12us = 177 pixels

Line sync width = 4.7us = 69 pixels

Front porch = 1.65us = 24 pixels

Back porch = 5.65us = 84 pixels


I haven't tried this for years - but ISTR I went back to standard 625/50Hz video timings, and calculated the various pixel widths of the signal elements from this. I also recall that I never quite got my head round the vertical figures - but it worked!


"Resolution within resolution" settings are for use when you have overscan and want to see the whole desktop. The video card outputs a 1024x576 video signal still - so the TV locks onto it - but the desktop only occupies a say 910 x 520 resolution desktop within this - with the driver putting black around the edges. Not a good idea for video - as you want to keep that line-mapped. But for desktop stuff it could be useful as a second video mode.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I can adjust the Pixel clock, but only to three decimal places.


For 1024x576 your suggested settings worked nicely thanks. By manually setting the pixel clock 19.687 Mhz, I can get:


Horizontal:

Scan Rate 15.625

Total line 1260 pixels

Active line 1024 pixels

Line sync width 93 pixels

Front porch 32 pixels

Back porch 111 pixels


Vertical:

Refresh Rate 24.999

Total line 625

Active line 576

Line sync width 5

Front porch 5

Back porch 39


Still not having any luck with the 4:3 resolutions though. 14.765 Mhz for the 768x576 resolution gives a vertical refresh rate of 24.999, or 14.766 gives 25.001. Both result in the same zoomed in/overscanned image though, with the following settings:


Horizontal:

Scan Rate 15.624

Total line 945 pixels

Active line 768 pixels

Line sync width 69 pixels

Front porch 24 pixels

Back porch 84 pixels


Vertical:

Refresh Rate 24.999

Total line 625

Active line 576

Line sync width 3

Front porch 7

Back porch 39
 

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If that's the case - then I'd do whatever you can by tweaking the total line pixels and non active line pixels to get 15.625kHz and 25Hz as they are the two key figures to hit - a few pixels of stretch or squeeze horizontally isn't the end of the world, nor is tweaking the pixel clock.


However if the PC that the settings are eventually to run on is only ever going to feed a 16:9 display - then there is no need to have a 768x576 resolution - as 4:3 content will be pillarboxed in a 1024x576 desktop res anyway by most windows apps.


Another option is running at a non-square pixel res (ie 720x576 or 702x576) and putting up with slightly odd shaped Windows desktop, and configuring the player app to display full-screen (ignoring what it thinks is the 'right' aspect ratio for the desktop res) - but if you have to deal with a mix of aspect ratio sources (not just full-screen for your display) this isn't a great idea.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well thankfully my brother's told my his TV is 16:9, so I don't have to worry about the 4:3 resolutions. I think there must be a bug in the driver, as there doesn't appear to be any way to stop 640x480 and 768x576 only showing a zoomed in top half of the desktop.


I don't really understand what you mean about running at 720x576 and running the player app at full screen. I am going to be running the app (MediaPortal) at full screen anyway, but surely if the resolution is wrong/non-square, this will affect MediaPortal and any videos being played as well.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by doveman
I don't really understand what you mean about running at 720x576 and running the player app at full screen. I am going to be running the app (MediaPortal) at full screen anyway, but surely if the resolution is wrong/non-square, this will affect MediaPortal and any videos being played as well.
Windows thinks that pixels are square. Therefore a 720x576 resolution will, to Windows, be 11.25 : 9 (slightly narrower than 4:3 which is 12:9) Left to its own devices Windows will therefore crop/zoom/letterbox/black bar 4:3 and 16:9 sources to fit into a 720x576 11.25:9 desktop. If this output is actually stretched across a 4:3 screen or 16:9 screen it will be wrong or very wrong (as the 720x576 pixels in an SD video signal are NOT square)


By forcing the player app to ignore Windows resolutions/aspect ratio and stretch a 16:9 or4:3 image across the full 720x576 resolution - it would work ok.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Ah, I think I understand.


So playing video in MediaPortal with the display set to 720x576 (for PAL) or 720x480 (for NTSC) (or on a 4:3 TV, 640x480 for both) should look fine, although the GUI will probably still be distorted by Windows?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by doveman /forum/post/20896315


Ah, I think I understand.


So playing video in MediaPortal with the display set to 720x576 (for PAL) or 720x480 (for NTSC) (or on a 4:3 TV, 640x480 for both) should look fine, although the GUI will probably still be distorted by Windows?

720x480 and 640x480 should both be fine for 60Hz 4:3. 720x576 and 768x576 should both be fine for 50Hz SD 4:3. 640x480 not great for 50Hz content as you are scaling vertically (which can be nasty with interlaced content)


This is only the case if you can force Media Portal to ignore Windows aspect ratio. The UI won't look too bad.


However I'd avoid using them to feed a 16:9 display as the degree of UI stretch is likely to be horrible - distorting coverart, thumbnails, text etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Sorry, I'm confused again.


I thought these were the actual resolutions used in SD video/TV:

640x480 - NTSC 4:3

640x576 - PAL 4:3

720x480 - NTSC 16:9

720x576 - PAL 16:9


So, assuming MediaPortal can be made to ignore Windows aspect ratio (which I don't actually know, all I know is it uses VMR9 (XP) or EVR (Win7) as the output renderer for video playback), wouldn't it be best to use a pair of those resolutions (depending on whether the TV is 4:3 or 16:9)?


I understand that 1024 x 576 and 854 x 480 are better 16:9 resolutions for Windows/the desktop, and as I've got those setup now I might as well stick with them, but assuming that one isn't going to use anything other than MediaPortal on the TV, wouldn't 720x480 and 720x576 be fine?
 
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