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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Recognizing I'm a newb on here shoplifting advicethe problem is I have visited three different Magnolias and two local places and know more than they do after reading AVS for about two hours.and I still don't know sht.


Question: 5.1 or 5.2?


Room dimensions are horrible. 15x25x9 = about 3,400 cubic feet. Problem is I have to use inwall for the fronts and inceiling for the rears. The room opens on the right of the plasma and on the left into two other rooms, and due to the rear wall being open on the back right, I can't properly place rears. Viewing area is proper, about 10 feet from front, but 15 feet of empty space on the left, right and back isn't making life any easier. But that's neither here nor there.


My question is should I use two smaller subs in the front corner and back corner or one big boy sub in BACK corner of room (two big boy subs not an option, neither is big boy sub at front corner of room)?


I would say intended use is about 50% sports watching, 25% movies, 25% pure music.


Say I go Triad:

Could do the Platinum DSP sub (18 inch woofer) w/ dimensions 22x25x20 in the BACK of the room, or could do two Mini Omni Subs (8 inch woofer) w/ dimensions 12x13x12


Say I go Def Tech:

Could do SuperCube Ref (14 inch woofer) w/ dimensions 17x17x17 in back of room, or two SuperCube II w/ 12 inch woofer w/ 12x12x12 dimensions.

Could also go Paradigm subs 1 vs 2.


I'm not locked into one of those three brands, but the inwalls will come from one of those brands and I don't know anything about matching subs w/ different ohms and all thator if that even matters.


So looking for advice on 2 subs or 1? I know that I'm trading lower bass for better dispersion, but which should be more important?


Or should I do a big boy in back and a small guy in front? Or is that just stupid?


Thanks
 

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Matching your sub brand to your speakers isn't a big deal. I would look at the likes of HSU, SVS, ed and so on. There are a lot of great subs on the market these days. I would normally say go one big over two small but you could always do one big with one small. That way you could get the mid-bass out of the smaller one with the deep lows of the bigger one. What does your budget look like?
 

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This will depend on your objectives. Look at the FR on each option. More than likely, the larger sub will have a lower bottom than the smaller sub. Since you are not collocating the subs, this won't improve the small sub's low end. Separated subs also won't get you much SPL increase. So, if SPL is a factor, then the one big will work better. If you are trying to improve the FR, then two small should work better. Problem is, you won't know if you need to smooth the FR until you actually deploy the sub/s and measure.

Since you would put the one big in the rear of the room, closer to the LP, I believe you would get smooth response, higher output, and lower FR with one big.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Wow, lots of great stuff here.


Had to look up some acronyms to respond intelligently.


I guess I wasn't clear on the LP (if that's listening position). It's in the front of the room. 9 feet from TV and LCR's. If I put 1 big sub in back of room it would be 18 feet from LP.


I have an SVS PB10-NSD http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

I love it but it's not enough for the primary sub and is too big to go in the front near the LP.


No attic above the room (baby's bedroom above actually). I had to look up the acronym "IB" as well...great term: infinite baffle. Going to try to use that in daily conversation. But I can't do it here.


Knowing I don't have to pair the subs with the brands, I am leaning toward a PC13-Ultra DSP from SVS. The reason is I might be able to get the boss to approve a front corner placement of the cylinder if I can paint it and bury it in the corner (please don't judge).


If not i'll pick a nice sub with 12x12x12 or so dimensions for front/right, put by current SVS sub in the back/left, plug it all in, and then have someone who knows what they're doing come and run some tests.


Will make sure to share results when done. Thanks

Thanks
 

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Why do you feel your room dimensions are poor?


What is your maximum budget, regardless whether you buy one or split the budget to buy two?


My room is similar in size, shape and cubes, so I'm familiar with your room's cubic demand, wrt displacement.


There exists today an incredibly high value/high performance environment in internet direct subwoofer retailers. ED , Epik , HSU , Chase , and as you know SVS , and of course some splendid, LF pieces from Mark Seaton . What's available today is just fantastic.


If you could spend some time reading, you could benefit greatly from room optimization techniques associated with subwoofers.

I feel this Harman whitepaper, offers a very nice, solid presentation of room response smoothing, derived from placement options when using multiple subs/multiple locations. It's truly a very important piece of work.

Here is a paper from Toole, perhaps one of the brightest minds associated with integrating audio into the home environment. The paper focuses on getting the bass right.

Here is some good stuff from Audioholics on placement in your room as well.


So, total budget?

Listening tendencies?

Listening position relative to other room elements?


Good luck


PVG and boundary gain are next
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
These papers are great. I am going to read them. Thanks.


I hadn't considered getting an EQ because I'm getting the new Onkyo 1008 and I figured I would let the receiver do all that. Also, as much as I'm going to learn from the papers, I only have 3 possible locations for sub (front right, front left, back left). My thought was to 2 subs in opposite corners or, if it's something like the PC13-Ultra w/ new DSP amp... just put that baby front right and my existing PB-10 back left, and then calibrate my way to good sound even if it's sub optima placement.


But maybe that's stupid and I should save $250 for the PC12-Plus DSP...because that's more than enough base and the 6 inches shorter probably pleases the boss.

But maybe doing that is stupid b/c I'm missing out on what appears to be a MUCH better sub for all listening levels and types... all to save $250 on a $10k system.


Budget is about $1800 for the sub. For overall system...I don't want to think about it.


Samsung 58" 8000 plasma.

InWall LCR's from Def tech or Triad. In ceilings surrounds from same.

4 ceiling speakers for music only.

Onkyo 1008 amp

PS3, Apple TV, Wii (already have)

Some gadget from Logitech that is supposed to give you one controller (but won't work)

Then some AVS installer will try to sell me Crestron...

it's going to hurt the wallet.


For sound, I run into tons of logistical issues that have nothing to do w/ speaker quality.


I'm pretty sure only Def-tech and Triad inwalls are narrow enough to fit in my LCR location (have 9 inches of width on L and R)...B&W is more than I want to pay and I think they're too wide (and not fully enclosed?), Paradigm might work, but not sure if they're enclosed either. Apparently they sound like crap without backbox, and none of paradigms back-box's fit in my walls b/c it's not new construction. If I have learned anything about inwalls, they gotta be enclosed (and making your own box for them is a waste of time b/c the speaker wasn't made to have a box).


I don't like the onwalls b/c I think they look stupid. I know, I'm in the super minority. I'm an either/or guy (put towers out there for everyone to see or disappear entirely in the walls). No interest in "on-walls"


I can't put rears or sides anywhere but the ceiling, and I think Def Tech and Triad make the best inceiling surrounds because the angled speakers, enclosed units, and of all those words like bipolar which I guess means they make a nice "sound field."


Room dimensions suck b/c I basically have front and back walls that are 15 ft wide, 25 ft apart...and a 10 foot open space between them into other 15x15 rooms on the right and left. So my cubic feet is either 3,400 or 7,400 depending on what you count. And i'm not getting a lot of sound waves bouncing off a lot of walls, because i don't have walls on the left and right.


Anyway, now I am a new guy taking DIY and speakers into a sub thread.


Question was really about subs...2 vs 1 and thanks for the thoughts (and literature).
 

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You essentially have the larger of the two cubic amounts, or 7400 cubic feet. That doesn't suck, it's just really going to take some output to adequately fill that space with LF.


To navigate through the decision making on making this happen, you first have to determine which avenue is for you; DIY or ID. With do it yourself options, there exists an entire community to aid in every conceivable question and ultimate conclusion that you'd desire. It's not for everyone however. Now with Internet Direct, the options have likely never been better for high value, high quality, high output.


I'd suggest two things. In my opinion, either a 1.) DIY IB, w/ minimum 27 liters of displacement (4 Fi IB3 18"), Behringer EP4000 amplifier, which is approx $1300 shipped. Or 2.) 2 HSU, VTF-15H, which I've no personal experience with, however it appears to be a beast, with outstanding output at tuning, which your room could really, really use. They'd be approx $1800 the pair.


Going with the HSU subs, would allow for more optimization, wrt mitigating any room modes, and achieving a nice smooth in room response. Here is the link to the HSU. There is an ongoing thread about the product as well.


Good luck, you've got some cubes to be filled.
 
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