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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
While visiting a friend in the western part of Germany last month, he casually let it slip that his neighbor had a few nice cars, and since I am a car buff, maybe we should check them out.


Cars? What kind of cars?


Oh, a few Ferraris.


Giddyapp!


Little did I know that "a few Ferraris" would be an understatement of the highest order.


The next morning, before leaving for our Nurburgring weekend, we sauntered across the street, past a modest house, through some electronic gates, and into a courtyard. Through the open door of one garage bay, sitting on a lift, was an F50. mmmmm, this isn't a bad start...


The next bay had 4 classic Mercedes. Gullwing, 300 SL roadster, 300D Cabriolet, all with gorgeous patinas. Cool.


The big bay was last and best. Inside sat 8 Ferraris, including an F60 Enzo.


Words failing, heart banging, feet numb, I stood in complete awe as the owner started and revved it. A picture behind the car flew off the wall from the exhaust blast and just missed crashing down on the tail. I wouldn't have been surprised if all the huge plate glass windows blew out at this point.


Then he let us all sit in the Enzo, and finally started up the 360 Modena Challenge. The 550 Marenello roadster, 360 spider, 355 and others weren't even mentioned.


Oh yeah, there was also a front projection system for watching F1 races and such with his Ferrari buddies.


You can make out the projector in the top of this screen grab


Never thought to ask him about it, but I'm sure it cost more than $20,000.


cheers


Kurt
 

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Quite impressive, indeed.


I must say that I don't really "get" the Enzo though. I saw it in person at a charity function preview for the annual New York Auto Show last month and could not warm up to the design. I've since read about the aerodynamic and ground effects thinking that went into it and the Japanese designer who penned it. But still, I must admit it does nothing for me.


I'd gladly take an F40 over an Enzo, to tell you the truth, and keep half the Enzo's cost in my pocket. That car was an even more thinly disguised pure race car than the Enzo (and the silly, cartoonish F50). But unlike the Enzo, it was every bit the classic Ferrari in terms of beauty. And it's not as if I couldn't scare the crap out of the citizenry blowing by them in an F40, nevermind the raw thrills one would have behind the wheel while doing so.
 

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PF


Agreed on your asesssment of the Enzo. I think the namesake is rolling over in his grave. I don't know about these Japanese designers, the new Viper was also penned by one, and I definitely think it is less soul stirring then the original. How does the great house of Pininfarina let their name be diluted by letting a yellow man in. I can say this as I am Japanese.


I do have to disagree on your comments on the F50 though. A true Italian design that I find very lovely. It is also much more of a race car than the F40 or the 60. Of the three, it's chassis and suspension is as close to an F1 car as any street vehicle ever produced. The F40 really is just an evolution of the 288GTO, which is pretty much a 308,328 with the engine turned longitudinally and turbocharged to kingdom come. This is best backed up by the fact that the F50 is a true carbon fiber monocoque (an extreme rarity in the production car world-if you can count 349 total units as production car. The 40 is a steel tube frame with some carbon members. The engine not really a stressed member. The suspension is simple coil over with U/L wishbones, whereas the 50 has computer controlled pushrod activated dampers. Sorry, no comparison. The Enzo is not even this cool, and the production numbers will probably exceed the 50's. Not to mention the fact, that the 50 is a Spyder as well as Berllinetta.


Oh well, great post Kurt. I'm sincerely jealous of that dude. My wife won't even let me by the one 360 Spyder I want and can afford. I alway's say that since I can't have the 360, I spent all the money on the HT. Little does she know, that the equipment in the HT was more expensive! If she wasn't such a good woman, I'd get rid of her and buy the Ferrari. Anyhow, what's a German doing with all that Italian aluminum and carbon fiber? How disgraceful, Italian engineering over German.....Sheist!!!!


Regards,


Edward
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi Guys -


Interesting thoughts. I could prattle on all days over these un-obtainable toys with like-minded car nuts...


I've never driven a Ferrari, so can't comment on which is the best driver. However, styling wise the Enzo didn't seem that special. Until one was right in front of me. Totally gorgeous. Not E-Type or Talbot-Lago gorgeous, but F16 with a gleaming red paint job perfect. The nose even worked. I didn't know that a Japanese designer had penned it, but I don't see a problem with this.


Better than the F40? Man thats a tough call. The F40 seems very 80's, flat surfaces with ducts everywhere. Also gorgeous. God if only this were a real choice to make...


The F50's styling has grown on me (again, better in person. This one had a thick layer of brake dust on the wheels, like all of his cars, no trailer queen), but still the F40 and Enzo make me drool more. Of course, the F50 does get big bonus points for being a drop top. Kind of cool that you can see the carbon fibers in the body when you get up close...


The one thing that didn't work on the Enzo was the interior. Could have been lifted straight from a video game , including the paddle shifters, push button starter, and digital display (other than the 10k tach and 400 kph speedo . Everything was either carbon fiber or leather, all black, and borderline claustrophobic. The F40 is more airy and with uncovered aluminum, more racy IMO. But hey, you have to justify $750,000 somehow (supposedly it costs Ferrari about 250,000 to build one, including amortized development costs, so they pocket about $500,000 a pop. 399 x $500k = $200 mil. Nice profit margin huh?).


Technology wise, comparing the Ferrari super-cars, from the online road tests (Top-Gear and a few others) the Enzo is quite a bit faster around any track than the F50, has less harshness (engine/tranny in subframe) and much better torque/hp. Schumie supposedly said it was as close to a race-car that a road-car has ever come. The Enzo's owner said he has only driven it at "about 8/10s". Pretty impressive, seeing 8/10s in an Enzo is much faster than most cars at 11/10s.


In my fantasy lap of the Nürburgring's Nordschleife, I imagine the Enzo would be more stable than the F50 doing 170+ into Swedenkreuz or Angstkurve for example. Surely I could break that pesky 7:30 barrier I am flirting with (on Sports Car GT in a 900 hp McLaren F1...)


Over Easter weekend there were some choice cars lapping the 'Ring: F40, bunch of RS, GT2 and GT3 911s, big-block Chevy powered Ultima, Hayabusa powered Radical, 1000hp Skyline GTRs, BMW Z1, M3s, M5s, and a sweet M1, Diablo SV (scraped the bumper of my friend's Alfa Spider in the car park - ouch!), old Renault Alpine, Viper Comp Coupe.


I got a passenger lap in an Elise and several in an S2000, both driven by very experienced Ringers. Incredible. After 16 laps I was in the in the mid 10 minute region, these guys were in the low 9s. The best driven street cars (usually locals who do hundreds of laps per year, and sometimes in modest, relatively low dollar cars) can do low to sub eight minute laps. Just plain nutty.


If interested, I have a few pics from the weekend here


Edward - I don't know how this German came to love Italian cars. Agreed - very un-German-like. My Alfa 156 gets less respect than a VW Golf from the Deutsch. He must keep the 300SL Gullwing and roadster around just so his family won't have him committed...

I couldn't help but kid him that he couldn't afford a 300SLR.


Personally, with his kind of money why not also have a Dino, 512BB, Daytona maybe, and hell go for a 512S or 312P! We're not talking 250GTO/LM or 330P3 here, just mix it up with a few classic SP or GT racers. Supposedly he at one time owned an early 90's Ferrari F1 car, didn't hear what happened with it. Maybe his full-time mechanic (who wrecked his first F40) couldn't do the service.


Edward, theoretically (until you convince or dump you wife ;) ) would you buy a second-hand 360 Spider for $200,000+, or get in the 2-3 year line for a new one? I read that there are currently a bunch of grey-market 360s held up in European warehouses since Ferrari started cracking down on back-door imports. NA dealers aren't too happy about losing out on their fat commissions...


ahhhh... nice to dream. I would be more than happy with an Elise or Caterham to track on weekends....


Glad you enjoyed the story guys - hopefully it didn't come across as excessively braggy, that wasn't (exactly) the intent. Just couldn't keep it inside...


salute!


Kurt
 

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Edward,


Point taken on the F50. I still think the F40 has more of an uncivilized, barely finished, rawness to it that I love, especially up close and personal. Saw Schumacher do donuts in it once, and nothing will satisfy me since.


Kurt,


Thanks for your additional comments. The only thing I would add because the car market is endlessly fascinating to me concerns the current apparent disparity in the super car market here in the U.S. vs. Europe.


Today, here, there's no need to wait long at all for any car your heart desires, and certainly no need to pay over list for it. Despite what some of the snobbier car salesman would have you believe, the market has collapsed here. A month ago, I sold my new SL55 AMG (which I didn't really like that much, truthfully). I assure you that the ads for $10K and $20K over list notwithstanding, the car wasn't worth much at all more than its list price. There are lots and lots of them for sale going without takers. Same with Ferraris (though perhaps not Enzos). Right now, if you're willing to range a bit far afield, you can find ANY Ferrari you want for no more than list, or at most within a couple of thousand dollars of list.


It's not like it was just a year ago here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
PF


Wow, you're right. The article I read on the grey-market Spyders was from January 2002!!!

http://www.ferrariownersclub.co.uk/h...ferrari_na.asp



PF Wrote:

"Today, here, there's no need to wait long at all for any car your heart desires"


Alrighty then, my heart desires a Lotus Elise, Opel Speedster, Alfa Spyder, Alfa 147 GTA, TVR Griffith, and a Subaru WRX STi.


SL55AMG?!?! Damn. It sounds like you, my friend, are not at all hurting for cash. Great. Now the afternoon is shot. Going to be daydreaming about the car and racing rig I could buy with SL55AMG money...


If you like "raw" you should consider a 427 Cobra replica´or a 550 Spyder rep!


Prost!


Kurt


Forgot to ask - PF where did you see Schumie in an F40???? That must have been great.

At the Goodwood Festival Of Speed in 2000 I saw Jenson Button do HUGE smoky donuts in his F1 BMW. Left fresh blakies all over Lord March's nice driveway... haha
 

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PF -

What about the SL55 didn't you like? I have felt that the new AMGs just aren't up to par and that Mercedes has made it too much of a production car whereas before the AMG badge was a rarity with only 1,500 units per model for a full run. I looked at trading my C43 in for a C32 but the new model was missing everything that I love about the C43 and its bretheren (E55, CLK55).


Kurt -


Great story... I wish I could have been there!
 

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I've seen only one F40 in my time and one 360 modenna(sp?). I love Porsches, I would rather drive a Porsche than almost anything else in the world, the few other things I would take over a Porsche? Maybe a Ferrari. I even root for Ferrari, mainly M. Schumacher, over his brother and the other German car teams. Of course it seems that Ferrari's team is made up of Germans...
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by plain fan
I've seen only one F40 in my time and one 360 modenna(sp?). I love Porsches, I would rather drive a Porsche than almost anything else in the world, the few other things I would take over a Porsche? Maybe a Ferrari. I even root for Ferrari, mainly M. Schumacher, over his brother and the other German car teams. Of course it seems that Ferrari's team is made up of Germans...
There is nothing that sounds like a well tuned air cooled Porsche flat six.... oh how could they have done away with it... criminal act or conspiracy, not sure which....
 

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I am sorry to interrupt but what does this thread have to do with Audio, Video or HT? Just curious


Frantz

Port-au-Prince, Haiti
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by FrantzM
I am sorry to interrupt but what does this thread have to do with Audio, Video or HT? Just curious
Obviously my man Frantz has never listened to a Ferrari V12


Thats my idea of Ultra High End Audio :D


In the thread subject and in my first post I mention that this is about GARAGE THEATERS.


You can see the screen here over the double doors.


cheers


Kurt
 

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Quote:
Obviously my man Frantz has never listened to a Ferrari V12
:) :) :)


Audio is eating up a sizable portion of my income, there is not a lot left for many more hobbies.... I do not want to encourage that thread but only afficionados understand that standard measurements can not begin to do justice to real performance, They are just a small window: Zero to sixty , 0 to 100 MPH times , 70 MPH to 0 MPH breaking distance or g-forces will never fully describe the sheer experience of a V-12 growling behind your back...

or the true handling of a car or the exhilaration of a controlled slide in a curve...

Still this is not AV by any stretch... and I could not see the AV portion of the Garage :mad: ... :rolleyes: Well Have a good time Guys...Still!! Wow !!What a Car!!


Frantz

Port-au-Prince, Haiti
 

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Yea for car talk!


I now get to talk about my other passion in the same place. What could be better.


Kurt, now I'm jealous. Time at the ring, wow. Great post, just drooling. The quality of the machinery really fits the location. That's got to be the ultimate automotive experience. I can't think of anything that compares. 7.5 minute laps? What's that 180kph average lap? Incredible a place that you can actually utilize the capabilities of today's awesome vehicles. By the way, what are the details on the PJ system. Very hard to tell from the photo.


PF, man 493 horsies doesn't work for you? You must have been on a waiting list to get it. You didn't tell us why you sold it. I bet you didn't loose anything. I love that car. Probably my second realistic choice after the 360. Maybe the 600. Definitely the best Merc since the 300s that Kurt got to see in the motherland. I've been reading though that the Benzos have gotten a little disconnected from their drivers. A little too much technology?


Frantz, Haiti is not exactly the land of the Ring. I think HT is a better place to put money as one is more apt to use the equipment as it meant to be used. I maybe wrong, but what can you do with 400+HP on the island? Is my perspective off? Do you have very lax traffic controls. But hey we're not supposed to let our machines run wild here either. But have had the XJR up against the govenor at an indicated 157.....Ah, the thrills of social irresponsibilty.


What fun!


Edward
 

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Yea for car talk!


I now get to talk about my other passion in the same place. What could be better.


Kurt, now I'm jealous. Time at the ring, wow. Great post, just drooling. The quality of the machinery really fits the location. That's got to be the ultimate automotive experience. I can't think of anything that compares. 7.5 minute laps? What's that 180kph average lap? Incredible a place that you can actually utilize the capabilities of today's awesome vehicles. By the way, what are the details on the PJ system. Very hard to tell from the photo.


PF, man 493 horsies doesn't work for you? You must have been on a waiting list to get it. You didn't tell us why you sold it. I bet you didn't loose anything. I love that car. Probably my second realistic choice after the 360. Maybe the 600. Definitely the best Merc since the 300s that Kurt got to see in the motherland. I've been reading though that the Benzos have gotten a little disconnected from their drivers. A little too much technology?


Frantz, Haiti is not exactly the land of the Ring. I think HT is a better place to put money as one is more apt to use the equipment as it meant to be used. I maybe wrong, but what can you do with 400+HP on the island? Is my perspective off? Do you have very lax traffic controls. But hey we're not supposed to let our machines run wild here either. But have had the XJR up against the govenor at an indicated 157.....Ah, the thrills of social irresponsibilty.


What fun!


Edward
 

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I have a poster that Infinity made with a Ferarri in it. It had a Testarossa, I believe, next to the IRS V. It said that the same performance was now available in another package. I am wanting to get it framed, but I haven;t done so yet.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by scooter_29
PF -

What about the SL55 didn't you like? I have felt that the new AMGs just aren't up to par and that Mercedes has made it too much of a production car whereas before the AMG badge was a rarity with only 1,500 units per model for a full run...

You know, I can't easily put my finger on it. This was one of several M-Bs I've owned, including the rare, Porsche-built E500 that you may recall (now that was a fun car). They've all been really good ones. And it was my third SL. But even though I'm definitely power mad, the SL55 just didn't do it for me. I'm not alone in that feeling, I suspect, as I see a lot of them for sale now.


I actually preferred the previous SL500 I had even if it was down on grunt. It was a better balanced, more "honest" car. I think what my complaint amounts to is that the SL55 felt unrefined and very un-Mercedes-like. As if they stuck that monster motor under the hood just as an after thought.


Getting wheel spin during highway passes was more of a parlor trick than anything to really savor. Yet, I actually thought it needed much more power -- I mean, if you're going to make me put up with over-the-road surliness, at least be honest about it and give me truly brutal thrust. In comparison, a '03 911 turbo is more refined, has more power, and is capable of more things, and costs no more. In the final analysis, the SL55 struck me as a bit of a poseur. Frankly, it felt and looked like a 'Vette, with commensurate build quality. Horrors!


What's more, it's cramped, and the interior materials feel and look cheap (there's that 'Vette theme again) compared to Benzs of just a couple of years ago. The styling already looks dated to my eye, the keyless-go is a pain...I could go on.


After selling the SL55, I tried the new S55. It's definitely a 4-door motorcycle, if you know what I mean. But again, like the SL55, the styling details aren't quite right, and I could have used still more power. So, this one wasn't quite right either.


But like, Goldilocks, I found the car that IS just right -- more refined than either the SL- or S55, yet with lots more grunt down low: the new bi-turbo S600. Now that's a Mercedes! Utterly limitless (or so it felt) reserves of smooth, incredible power. Perhaps the factory acceleration numbers are no different, but the subjective feel was so much better. All combined with a sense of luxury and sophistication that the SL55 and, strangely, the S55, simply cannot match.


And so, that's what I have on order. I highly recommend that you get one, too! To me, it's the best Merecedes ever: An S600 truly worthy of the name, and indeed, the lofty asking price. But considering what you get, it's a bargain in a way.
 

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PF


I hear you buddy! I forgot to mention that about the SL600 as my other preference. I like that big sedan as well. We'd have one if my wife wasn't so proJag. I have to admit, I have an inferiority complex, though whenever I'm next to an AMG or V12Merc. I keep working on her. She is softening some.... She realizes the quality when we go check them out. The only problem is that every MB dealer around here is really stuffy and the salespeople-probably like the one you mentioned, are just plain asses. We haven't been lately, and the economy around here is so bad, maybe they've had an attitude adjustment.


I really hear what you are saying about the previous generation SL's. The thing I lament is that the three valve engines really don't have it like the previous 4 valvers. It's hard to believe that they went down market. That's what made the E500 so much better than the current editions. The 4 valvers scream, the 3's just rely on torque and greater displacement. Hence the advent of super and turbocharging. They have to make up that power sometime. I think the biggest example of how superior the older engines are, is the fact that Pagani is using the previous version in his Zonda supercar. Which makes huge power without abnormal aspiration. I really don't care for turbocharging, as I question it's long term longevity. But hey give me the 550lbs of torque and I'll take it anyway I can get, and if anyone can get a turbocharged engine to last, it the Benz engineers. My only problem with the new S600 is that they have somewhat castrated it in order to keep the Maybach a step up. So we know there's another 60 horses in there. Man just think how that baby would rock with the full boat Maybach mill.


Well again I'm jealous, maybe when the Jag starts disassembling itself, I can say, "see we should buy a Mercedes." I think that will work for an MB. One thing I know I'll never get an upcoming 500HP V-10 M5 cause she is adamant against Bimmers. Personally I think they are junk, but you know there is the visceral driving quality that no other sedan has-except that previous generation E500-thanks to the Porsche guys. I really prefer manuals as well, and we are never getting that with the big engined Benzs.


Enjoy,


Edward


How long can we keep the car thread going?
 

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PF


I hear you buddy! I forgot to mention that about the SL600 as my other preference. I like that big sedan as well. We'd have one if my wife wasn't so proJag. I have to admit, I have an inferiority complex, though whenever I'm next to an AMG or V12Merc. I keep working on her. She is softening some.... She realizes the quality when we go check them out. The only problem is that every MB dealer around here is really stuffy and the salespeople-probably like the one you mentioned, are just plain asses. We haven't been lately, and the economy around here is so bad, maybe they've had an attitude adjustment.


I really hear what you are saying about the previous generation SL's. The thing I lament is that the three valve engines really don't have it like the previous 4 valvers. It's hard to believe that they went down market. That's what made the E500 so much better than the current editions. The 4 valvers scream, the 3's just rely on torque and greater displacement. Hence the advent of super and turbocharging. They have to make up that power sometime. I think the biggest example of how superior the older engines are, is the fact that Pagani is using the previous version in his Zonda supercar. Which makes huge power without abnormal aspiration. I really don't care for turbocharging, as I question it's long term longevity. But hey give me the 550lbs of torque and I'll take it anyway I can get, and if anyone can get a turbocharged engine to last, it the Benz engineers. My only problem with the new S600 is that they have somewhat castrated it in order to keep the Maybach a step up. So we know there's another 60 horses in there. Man just think how that baby would rock with the full boat Maybach mill.


Well again I'm jealous, maybe when the Jag starts disassembling itself, I can say, "see we should buy a Mercedes." I think that will work for an MB. One thing I know I'll never get an upcoming 500HP V-10 M5 cause she is adamant against Bimmers. Personally I think they are junk, but you know there is the visceral driving quality that no other sedan has-except that previous generation E500-thanks to the Porsche guys. I really prefer manuals as well, and we are never getting that with the big engined Benzs.


Enjoy,


Edward


How long can we keep the car thread going?
 

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PF


I hear you buddy! I forgot to mention that about the SL600 as my other preference. I like that big sedan as well. We'd have one if my wife wasn't so proJag. I have to admit, I have an inferiority complex, though whenever I'm next to an AMG or V12Merc. I keep working on her. She is softening some.... She realizes the quality when we go check them out. The only problem is that every MB dealer around here is really stuffy and the salespeople-probably like the one you mentioned, are just plain asses. We haven't been lately, and the economy around here is so bad, maybe they've had an attitude adjustment.


I really hear what you are saying about the previous generation SL's. The thing I lament is that the three valve engines really don't have it like the previous 4 valvers. It's hard to believe that they went down market. That's what made the E500 so much better than the current editions. The 4 valvers scream, the 3's just rely on torque and greater displacement. Hence the advent of super and turbocharging. They have to make up that power sometime. I think the biggest example of how superior the older engines are, is the fact that Pagani is using the previous version in his Zonda supercar. Which makes huge power without abnormal aspiration. I really don't care for turbocharging, as I question it's long term longevity. But hey give me the 550lbs of torque and I'll take it anyway I can get, and if anyone can get a turbocharged engine to last, it the Benz engineers. My only problem with the new S600 is that they have somewhat castrated it in order to keep the Maybach a step up. So we know there's another 60 horses in there. Man just think how that baby would rock with the full boat Maybach mill.


Well again I'm jealous, maybe when the Jag starts disassembling itself, I can say, "see we should buy a Mercedes." I think that will work for an MB. One thing I know I'll never get an upcoming 500HP V-10 M5 cause she is adamant against Bimmers. Personally I think they are junk, but you know there is the visceral driving quality that no other sedan has-except that previous generation E500-thanks to the Porsche guys. I really prefer manuals as well, and we are never getting that with the big engined Benzs.


Enjoy,


Edward


How long can we keep the car thread going?
 
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