[Cam Man]

The Balrog scene is really impressive. Since I just watched the new version, I'll go back and take a listen to the former one for comparison.

 

[Vince_B]

The matrix 4K with Beq and 6db boost just to avoid upper frequency overload at around -15 mv, basically the entire movie but the whole heli sequence. Used to watch that prior to beq and it was okay. With beq, whole different animal.

Gonna spin rogue nation again thanks for that

 

[(The Other) Colin Miller]

People are almost cultish with subwoofer recommendations.

My buddy and I compared his LMS 5400 in my room to my UM18-22 in the same 21” sealed box. (The LMS5400 is objectively one of the best 18" subwoofers ever made)
I have eight, he has two. We paid the same total amount for our drivers. Total of $2K. We bought our boxes from the same vendor/same box. (Of course I spent significantly more on boxes). At the end of the comparison after neither of us could “hear” a difference he said, ‘tell me why I paid this much more for my drivers again?’

The only difference of consequence we could measure/observe was that a single LMS5400 could handle a couple more dB from my Crown XLS-5000 amp.

I think you're touching on a fundamental that is important, that more of less can be more when it comes to number of subwoofers. Whether it is simply more radiating areas possibly complimenting the room response, if carefully integrated or just lucky.

Also, that when it comes to total enclosure volume, less requires more. If you're using less air behind the woofer, you're spending a lot more amplifier power, driver coil heat dissipation, fighting the air inside the enclosure at lower frequencies. What becomes cost-effective and sensible kind of depends, and the assumption that the more expensive, 'better' driver is a better choice if you're willing to spend the money on it isn't necessarily a sound one. The question of 'Better for what, in what context?' needs to be asked and answered. Selecting the 'best' driver(s) for people with different rooms, different amounts of available space (and the willingness to fill it), and differing placement options, will have objectively different answers, even if subjective taste in sound is 'equalized'.

On top of that, drivers that work well in smaller enclosures may not have the same performance, but because you are able to locate them in more potential locations, you might actually get a better quality outcome in some situations even if you cannot get nearly the SPL.

It's definitely a juggling act, and it seems that it takes a bit of trial, and inevitably, some error on the way to getting there, at least for most.

 

[Archaea]

And like the Harmon Kardon subwoofer paper suggests. The more subwoofers you have, the less important the specific careful placement becomes.

Once you get to a competent tier of subwoofer driver, and the UM18-22 is in that tier, then sound quality and performance per driver falls secondary to subjective EQ preference in something simple like a sealed box - where I can, for instance, tailor to taste with basically any EQ I uniquely prefer. Want more SPL headroom? Just add more drivers.

 

[xb1032]

Unfortunately the phrase "ignorance is bliss" comes into play here. You might think sub setup A is great, but sub setup B might be a nice improvement over what you have and you simply don't know what you are missing out on - or vice versa. To really make a good comparison you'd have to compare both sub setups in the same room which in most cases simply isn't possible and thus why we have to rely more than we care to on the opinions of others. Too bad you can't demo in stores to help you determine what would appeal more to your tastes (even then you are still relying to a certain degree on the store's environment and their setup).

 

[(The Other) Colin Miller]

Unfortunately the phrase "ignorance is bliss" comes into play here. You might think sub setup A is great, but sub setup B might be a nice improvement over what you have and you simply don't know what you are missing out on - or vice versa.

Sometimes I miss the ignorance. I notice a lot of things that bug me that others don't think of, and are happier for it, which makes me wonder if I am the more foolish for caring sometimes. It's almost as foolish as thinking that if I simply buy and do what somebody else buys or does, because they're certain of bestness, that I will find it equally as bestness, or even falling into the folly of comparative performance as an indication of likely personal subjective satisfaction.

But when you've got curiosity running amok, the bliss of ignorance is usually temporary. Then again, I suppose you can say that about a lot of things

I have learned, though, that when you're really happy with something, just enjoy it for awhile, and stop poking, until you actually find a problem. Eventually, a new problem will find you, somewhere, or you won't be able to resist exploring, and you'll have plenty to do.

Then again, there are elements that I wish I had discovered FAR earlier, like full control of filter curves outside of the limitations of an AVR, or for that matter REW room response analysis. It would have eliminated a whole lot of wondering, as well as saved a lot of time plotting frequency at a position with tones one at a time and a spl meter.

 

[Cam Man]

Lots of good commentary here. There is wisdom in finding "AV peace" for a while. I got there for a while once I had gone DIY(SG) for all but my subs...but then I would go to a high end movie in a great cinema...and the LF would say "you don't have this"...and it would plant the seed to motivate research and development on how to get there. But that's part of the fun!

As for subjectivity, it certainly is a huge factor. My approach has been to pursue as a foundation the (SMPTE) professional cinema standards as closely as possible, then tweak a little. I can always return to the reference point, but generally the tweaking is minimal if I've followed them successfully. Of course, there is nothing wrong with choosing to exceed the standards. Dubbing stages are required to be linear down to 25Hz. I shoot for lower with plenty of headroom...and can do it with the approach we are discussing.

 

[Cam Man]

@MKtheater ...PM sent.

 

[xb1032]

...But when you've got curiosity running amok, the bliss of ignorance is usually temporary. Then again, I suppose you can say that about a lot of things

Very true. I had 2 Dayton Titanic MKIIIs (which I believe was the predecessor to the UM) and a Buttkicker LFE and so I decided to replace one of the Daytons with a UM...which was replaced by a 21" LaVoce Devastor...which led to a second...which led to Dual Dayton PA460s - which was replaced by 2 18" SAF Devastators...which led to an NSW Finalizer. My current setup completely eclipses what I had before by leaps and bounds so you'd think I wouldn't be thinking "what if I added Alpha II"? Curiosity isn't cheap!

Lots of good commentary here. There is wisdom in finding "AV peace" for a while. I got there for a while once I had gone DIY(SG) for all but my subs...but then I would go to a high end movie in a great cinema...and the LF would say "you don't have this"...and it would plant the seed to motivate research and development on how to get there. But that's part of the fun!...

I've never been to a cinema that made me feel this way including the luxury theaters I've gone to. Probably a good thing for me.

 

[Cam Man]

I've never been to a cinema that made me feel this way including the luxury theaters I've gone to. Probably a good thing for me.

Hahaha...probably true. You are a good candidate to ask this of: IF the content in a given source (movie or music) has no high amplitude LF below 20Hz or so, will your system sound any different that one that is only linear down to 20Hz or so?

 

[xb1032]

Hahaha...probably true. You are a good candidate to ask this of: IF the content in a given source (movie or music) has no high amplitude LF below 20Hz or so, will your system sound any different that one that is only linear down to 20Hz or so?

Trick question? Since I probably can't hear frequencies below 20Hz all else being equal I'd say no.

 

[JayMan72]

SBA has great potential, the four 24 could qualify possibly, do you have room for back absorption?

Yes as we are actually building from scratch. The HT is going to be included in the home build plans.

So its a blank slate.

 

[Cam Man]

Trick question? Since I probably can't hear frequencies below 20Hz all else being equal I'd say no.

Some can, some can't. I frankly am not sure if I can or not, but...I know that my previous subs were linear down to 25Hz. The new LF array is linear down to about 18Hz, but also with 6dB more output at 20Hz than the old. I have more headroom now, too. I can certainly hear/experience "the difference!" Exactly what adds up to "the difference" I can't say. It's likely cumulative factors. A colleague has the theory that my mixed bag of subs were a bit out of phase at various frequencies. The change to identical big, powerful subs got rid of that problem.

 

[JayMan72]

Heck ya, four UM18’s going to 15hz and some ...... 8’s???? Well that should get you some pretty awesome SPL levels and should sound pretty clean. Four amps should do nicely, maybe a minidsp and/ or some dsp amps. Should only take you a month or two trying to figure out the best location for just the UM’s and then the 8’s (???) also. After that you get to sit down and make sure your xo from UM’s to 8’s (???) is satisfying. matching spl levels and room modes should only take a couple of days and then you may have to reconfigure your front boxes all over again, but by that time you should have your xo dialed in a little better. Then.... after a couple of months of some pretty good sound you’ll find out that everyone here has recommended a pro 21” (lavoce or NSW) instead of the lack luster (for midbass) UM setup (and a quite complicated setup too).
The cool part is that by the time you realize all this, you will have spent a crap load of time and energy into something that is only “okay”, oh... .

For the same money and less time, less amps, less setup time, less power consumption, less wires, less moving large boxes around you could have actually been enjoying your setup..... with.... get this... the same exact sound and “speed of the woofer”.

Save yourself, Just get four 21” and tune them to 15hz - 17hz and be done, or drop them in some Devs.

OK just to clear things up, my CURRENT set up are two 15's and four 8's in small(ish) sealed enclosures that are Crossed over and EQ'd. (Basically I am sending all of the bass to the 8's and all of the sub bass to the 15's - Might be overkill but it is clean and sounds fantastic, at least to my ears.)

Here was the post about them 10 years ago if you are interested. - My "Overkill Project" DIY Sub

What I am looking at doing is NOT that, this time. I was working with the Altec's that I had and their response below 100Hz was less than desired.

The plan is to have proper L/C/R with Subs that will blend well with them.

I was invited to another users home today and he demoed his Danley SH50's.

Best/Worst decision I think I have ever made. So now I need to look into bottom end that will compliment the Danley's

 

[(The Other) Colin Miller]

Some can, some can't. I frankly am not sure if I can or not, but...I know that my previous subs were linear down to 25Hz. The new LF array is linear down to about 18Hz, but also with 6dB more output at 20Hz than the old. I have more headroom now, too. I can certainly hear/experience "the difference!" Exactly what adds up to "the difference" I can't say. It's likely cumulative factors. A colleague has the theory that my mixed bag of subs were a bit out of phase at various frequencies. The change to identical big, powerful subs got rid of that problem.

In my dedicated listening area, the subwoofers are 'flat', +/- 4 dB, from 8 to a few hundred Hz, last I can remember checking, without any EQ applied. There is some novelty in playing very low frequencies to provide that creepy haunted house sensation that you really cannot hear, but in practice, I filter out everything below 20 Hz because, for me, in terms of my subjective impressions, all I get out of the extra extension is the opportunity to rattle something in another room.

 

[SteveCallas]

Aside from the cab being huge (which is not an issue as we are building the HT with the new home so I have the ability to design the room anyway I want) is there a downside to using these Subs?

Welcome to the LLT. No downsides if you have the space. If you are used to sloppy, distorted bass, and not accustomed to accuracy, you may find it a bit dry at first. You will definitely be able to percieve the difference between bass, low bass, and infrasonic bass with some LLTs.

 

[Pradeep2]

And like the Harmon Kardon subwoofer paper suggests. The more subwoofers you have, the less important the specific careful placement becomes.

Once you get to a competent tier of subwoofer driver, and the UM18-22 is in that tier, then sound quality and performance per driver falls secondary to subjective EQ preference in something simple like a sealed box - where I can, for instance, tailor to taste with basically any EQ I uniquely prefer. Want more SPL headroom? Just add more drivers.

Yes, love the UM18s sealed, I mount them motor out and they have very little operating noise even at high excursion. I can understand the appeal of a few higher performance drivers but if you have the space multiple cheaper units give you the better result.

 

[Pradeep2]

Yes as we are actually building from scratch. The HT is going to be included in the home build plans.

So its a blank slate.

I believe rule of thumb for an SBA is three feet of pink fluffy and a foot of air space to absorb the wave on the back wall? Perhaps a DBA if space is at a premium.

 

[Archaea]

Welcome to the LLT. No downsides [and you will definitely be able to tell the difference]

Every alignment has a ‘downside’.
LLT’s is port resonance in upper bass frequencies. (Sure it can be mitigated with crossover points and capable speakers, but “no downside” isn’t strictly accurate.)

As to telling the difference between LLT bass output and other alignments? I’m not sure I’m in agreement. Not after our 2012 blind test I linked earlier. Mix capable subs of different alignment types, not pushed to their limits, and you’ll watch people who swear up and down of sure preference for one or the other finding themselves completely unsure of what just played.

 

[Archaea]

In my dedicated listening area, the subwoofers are 'flat', +/- 4 dB, from 8 to a few hundred Hz, last I can remember checking, without any EQ applied. There is some novelty in playing very low frequencies to provide that creepy haunted house sensation that you really cannot hear, but in practice, I filter out everything below 20 Hz because, for me, in terms of my subjective impressions, all I get out of the extra extension is the opportunity to rattle something in another room.

Are you using an AVR? If so what consumer AVR doesn’t roll off LFE signal above 120Hz. If you unplug your main speakers and just have the subs playing you are basically flat to 300Hz? Not saying you don’t — just asking how you do.

@Pradeep2
Motorside out? And hide that pretty carbon fiber cone? Say it isn’t so.