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Hi all,


Here's an article on Slashdot discussing a radical new cooling technology that apparently has passed tests at Boeing Aircraft:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/05/15/1810211


Cool Chips, the company developing this new thermotunnel technology, claims that their devices deliver 70-80% cooling efficiency with no moving parts and that they can be miniaturized for use in micro-electronic applications.

http://www.coolchips.com/


Probably will take a while to productize quantum mechanical electron tunneling cooling technology for PC use, but could be an interesting technology to keep our eyes on.


Best regards,
 

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This is either one great technological discovery or a farce.

I would think that CPU chip cooling would be one of the last useful purposes for it.
 

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Hi Acronce:


___I haven’t seen this before but if it works, we should have a $345.00 passive P4 cooler real soon ;) The problems I see from Coolchips own web site is that the cooling is not completely passive but more like a Peltier in which the heat is transferred to the other side of the plate. With one of these devices, producing say 80 degree C temps on the HS side of the cooler, you had better have a nice fan to remove that heat from the HS on top or you will possibly be melting wire insulation. This is an exaggeration for sure.


___I don’t know … In appears that in a refrigeration application, you would have to power up the chip/cooler/HS whatever it is. If you have to power up the Cooler on a CPU for example, you are not only going to have to remove the heat of the CPU but also of the Cooling chip. With 80% efficiency, your talking about 40 – 80 Watts to be supplied to the cooling chip and between 70 and maybe 140 Watts to be removed from the CPU /Cooling chip combination let alone the other 50 – 100 W of heat to be removed from the other peripherals depending on what cards and drives you are running. This is a lot heat output for a std. case design. An Antec 1080B could take care of that heat load but a Hydraulic or any number of DT cases without severely modding them would fail miserably IMO. That is if I am reading the information provided properly and if the information is legit which I doubt just now or we would be seeing it in the daily news as the next Cold Fusion technology leap …


___Good Luck


___Wayne R. Gerdes

___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.

___ [email protected]
 

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I have to disagree a bit Xcel,


Granted it is JUST like a peltier but it looks like you can control the amount of heat removed. Imagine a heatsink that you can custom set the heat removel. Very nice. As for the case design, this type of cooling would be big enough to even allow new casespecifications. Meanwhile, run the heatsink outside the case and insulate


The part that I find absolutely amzing is the heat to electricity part. Imagine the possabilites here depending upon efficiency at given heat levels. Could be lots of fun.
 

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Hi Bal:


___Its not the control, it’s the amount you have to remove. If the CPU outputs 50 W, you had better be removing 50 W. That is 112 W to be removed including the devices own 62 W applied and since that power appears to be dissipated at the Chips face, it will have to be removed inside the case.


___As for the rest of the applications, I can’t wait but I have been waiting for a working Cold Fusion generator for quite some time as well ;)


___Good Luck


___Wayne R. Gerdes

___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.

___ [email protected]
 

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Maybe I have the right thread this time:


You guys got CPU cooling on the brain. It's easy to cool a CPU, either make the CPU more efficient, use water like the Navy does on their ships (they do not lack for water) or use a cooling agent like Freon as Seymore Cray did back in the '60's. Cray's patent has surely run out by now.


What is wowing me is 80% vs. 50% efficiency. I am staring outside at 96F and running up my electricity bill. I am imagining a whole roof of these chips, silenty cooling my space.


Check this link out from Boeing if you think this is cold fusion:
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases...nr_011130a.html
 

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Hi e vey:


___To make your CPU more efficient, declock it. I can bet a 1.6A at 33 MHz FSB will run passive without a HS on it all day long. Of course Intel won’t sell many of these at just 533 MHz let alone there are no boards to support that FSB so that solution is out of the question … Watercooling can be more of a headache than many very quiet forced air solutions … Is the Pump loud? How do you kill the Biological growth on a continuous basis? What if you have a leak? How does it fit in your case. How much will it add to the cost of your system? Freon … Now that would be an expensive solution. I had a friend that was working at Argon National Labs here in Illinois and he mentioned that they were inserting the entire MB/GP/Memory ring/CPU’s of their own Super Computers into a container of an ultra pure liquid substance with literally no conductivity. It stayed cool alright but the recirc system to maintain the ultra purity, lowered temperatures, and the cost of the liquid itself was cost prohibitive for the average end user ;)


___As for the Science fiction part of this whole release ... 6 months since Boeing had their crack at it and still nothing …


___Good Luck


___Wayne R. Gerdes

___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.

___ [email protected]
 

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Now wait a minute. Nobody said any of this would cheap.


The Navy snags sea water, distills it, cools it with a huge chiller, then distributes it throughout the ship where it cools radar units, cools spaces etc.


Declocking is not the only way to make a chip more efficient. Going back to high-school physics, wasted electricity is disippated in what form? So while they come out slowly, laptops are probablu our best friends when it comes to this.


Freon cooling is not as nutty as it sounds. I used one of Mr. Cray's freon cooled machines for years. The cooling was probably the most reliable part of the whole machine. And it was not crazy expensive either. If you have ever looked at old patents, you would be surprised at the old chestnuts in there.
 

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Hi e vey:


___The Navy does it by … That is a forced cooling solution with a radiator and fan for cooling the HW and spaces let alone the distiller and chiller to purify and cool the water.


___Laptops … You mean the Tualatin based Intel chips. Or were you speaking of the Crusoe or VIA “C†chips? The last two mentioned are just to slow to use for DScaler use in particular.


___Do you use the Freon based setup in your HTPC today? How are you compressing the gas for the liquid to vapor change of state where the cooling happens? I use Tualatin’s and Nortwood’s at high clocks myself with slow speed fans in a forced air cooling arrangement. I don’t think I have a single installed fan with > 22 dB output but these are my own HTPC’s …


___Good Luck


___Wayne R. Gerdes

___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.

___ [email protected]
 

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>That is a forced cooling solution with a radiator and fan for cooling the HW and spaces let alone the distiller and chiller to purify and cool the water.
 

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The whole problem with CPU cooling is that we are trying to keep the CPU below a certain temperature. If you don't care what temperature it operates at, dissapating 100 watts is no problem. it will just heat up untill it reaches equilibrium via convective cooling (this is why 100W light bulbs don't melt). The advantage of this new heat pump is that one can pump the heat away from the processor and into the heat sink so that the heat sink runs at a much higher temperature, and can therefor transfer more heat into the surroundings without raising the temperature of the CPU. Yes the heat sink is hotter, yes you are dumping 20% more power inside the case, but you don't need to run a jet engine over the CPU to keep it cool enough anymore. This will probably be more attractive to over clockers, since unless one can design a case where the heat sinc for the CPU is outside the case, you will probably still need fans. Computer cases are not well designed for convective cooling.
 

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Hi Dap:


___There are two problems with this …


___The temperature range that a CPU will operate at is definitely limited. If you run a T-Bird/Duron/XP + in the neighborhood of 75 degrees C under the DIE/ 80 - 90 degrees C internal, you have a chip that is burned out and will never work again. In the case of the P4, it will throttle itself down long before reaching this critical mass ;) The Coppermines/Tualatin’s will simply crash once there internal max temps are released but will not burn up in this fashion that I have ever read … In other words, even a light bulb would melt if it were allowed to reach a temp that the components inside fail at but there is enough heat dissipated from the glass of the bulb itself to maintain a temp below this lowest component meltdown/burnout point.


___The second problem is that you are not just dumping 20% more heat from the HTPC case but 120% +! It depends on however high you jacked the cooling up on the cooling device itself! This is quite a bit more than the just the CPU’s generated heat. If you have ever run an HDTV tuner in a DT case before, you will quickly see why some case designs cannot tolerate the amount of thermal load although they will achieve equilibrium. The problem is that this thermal equilibrium is so high as to cause many of your components stability to decrease or to not work at all. I don’t like running T-Bird’s/XP +’s above 50 degrees C nor do I like running video cards > 60 degrees C. If I cannot meet those temperature objectives with the quiet cooling solution I desire, I move the cooling solutions design up a notch with higher RPM and greater CFM fans or better case design for cooler ambient temps. This in turn will lower the individual components temperature to a point I am satisfied with for longer term stability.


___e vey: Have you ever used a 6†long HS to cool anything giving off just 40 – 60 W? The Delta T from the face of the load to the ends of the fins where most of the heat removal would have to take place in your scenario would be so high as to make the HS useless no matter if it were made from a great thermally conductive Silver alloy or simple aluminum like most … You might have a 60 degrees C face and a 22 degree fin tip with ambient temps at maybe 20 degrees C or so. You are not going to receive much cooling from a 2 degree C difference at the HS’s edges. Water cooling would be the choice in the case of transferring a heat load across that kind of distance IMO.


___Good Luck


___Wayne R. Gerdes

___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.

___ [email protected]
 

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Well,


I have done a bit (make that a lot) of water cooling. And Xcel you are right about the sink having poor heat cunductance over a 6 " length BUT.....


Put the sink on the CPU, and the heat pump on the OUTSIDE of the case on the heat sink. Insulate the sink between the pump and the CPU and you ar basically sucking the heat out of the CPU. The key is to balance this heat pump setup in such a way that the heat sink never reaches the critical dew point of the environment causing the condensation problem.


Peltiers efficiency killed this setup because you had to pump SO much heat due to the in effeciency. That has been cut out by a LOT here. I know you see the probelm, look for the solution!!! We probably have about ..oh....1 1/2 years until we get to actually test the solution. Development will take at least that long for coolchips at a minimum.


:)
 

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Cray would not be allowed to build his design today, since Freon destroys the ozone layer. By the way, he circulated liquid Freon through the frame and case of the machine, with small coolant loops attached directly to heat-producing devices. This was not only effective but extremely efficient, and virtually silent because you did not have to blow air in the computer room. His CPU complex looked like a cylinder surrounded by padded seating - but anyone who sat on it soon found their ass getting uncomfortably cold. However, the one thing I remember is it was an incredibly silent computer room - because Cray didn't believe in circulating air to cool metal. The other thing I remember is that when Freon quit being manufactured and pricing per pound went spiking upwards, all the Crays went away when it became too expensive to replenish lost Freon (thousands of Freon connections also leaked constantly).


What you have to remember is the heat has to go somewhere. In the case of a Cray mainframe, the Freon compressor and huge radiators were remotely located, often on the floor below the CPU/Computer room. In the compressor room, enough air was blowing and enough pumping was going on to make the room uncomfortably noisy and drafty (but it was a warm draft).


There is no reason we could not emulate the best of Mr. Cray's design with a liquid cooling loop - just put the pump, radiator, and fan in a different room, behind a closed door, and simply pump the heat outside while making the cooling noises in that other room rather than the one you are playing movies in. A couple of 1/4-inch coolant lines would probably suffice - and be smaller than the bundle of cables I have connecting my HTPC to my projector.


Gary
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by xcel
Hi Dap:


___There are two problems with this …


___The temperature range that a CPU will operate at is definitely limited. If you run a T-Bird/Duron/XP + in the neighborhood of 75 degrees C under the DIE/ 80 - 90 degrees C internal, you have a chip that is burned out and will never work again. In the case of the P4, it will throttle itself down long before reaching this critical mass ;) The Coppermines/Tualatin’s will simply crash once there internal max temps are released but will not burn up in this fashion that I have ever read … In other words, even a light bulb would melt if it were allowed to reach a temp that the components inside fail at but there is enough heat dissipated from the glass of the bulb itself to maintain a temp below this lowest component meltdown/burnout point.




The idea is using this heat pump chip it pumps heat from the CPU to the Heatsink. Therfore the heatsink can get much hotter without the CPU getting any hotter, or even running cooler. The hotter heatsink can transfer heat much faster to the air than a cooler one, so you don't need as much airflow to disapate the same amount of heat.

Quote:



___The second problem is that you are not just dumping 20% more heat from the HTPC case but 120% +! It depends on however high you jacked the cooling up on the cooling device itself! This is quite a bit more than the just the CPU’s generated heat. If you have ever run an HDTV tuner in a DT case before, you will quickly see why some case designs cannot tolerate the amount of thermal load although they will achieve equilibrium. The problem is that this thermal equilibrium is so high as to cause many of your components stability to decrease or to not work at all. I don’t like running T-Bird’s/XP +’s above 50 degrees C nor do I like running video cards > 60 degrees C. If I cannot meet those temperature objectives with the quiet cooling solution I desire, I move the cooling solutions design up a notch with higher RPM and greater CFM fans or better case design for cooler ambient temps. This in turn will lower the individual components temperature to a point I am satisfied with for longer term stability.

The way I read "80% effeciency" is that if you are pumping 100 watts of heat from one side of the device to the other, you will need to drive 20 watts of power into the cooling chip. Then your CPU is using 100 watts, but the heatink has to dissapate 120 watts. So the heatsinc has to dissapate 20% MORE power than it would without the heat pump, but it is able to do it at a much higher temperature, so it has an easier job.
 

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Hi All:


___Refrigeration units at a distance as well as water cooling can be done in the exact method described but are you going to? Why not just place your HTPC in another room and run the cables to the HD display? This solution is a lot cheaper and far less messy IMO. Than again, if you make your HTPC quiet with std. cooling, you can have it under your feet and you won’t hear it either ;)


___Dap:
Quote:
The whole problem with CPU cooling is that we are trying to keep the CPU below a certain temperature. If you don't care what temperature it operates at, dissapating 100 watts is no problem. it will just heat up untill it reaches equilibrium via convective cooling (this is why 100W light bulbs don't melt).
___You bet your trying to keep the CPU below a certain temperature or it will fail as described earlier.


___As for 80% efficiency, I am not sure? If you have to remove 50 -100 W from a Tualatin/T-Bird/XP +/Tbred/P4 and Cooling chip, that is not going to be a problem. If you have to remove 90 – 180 W from the cooling chip and CPU, than that’s a problem for a lot of today’s available cases.


___Good Luck


___Wayne R. Gerdes

___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.

___ [email protected]
 
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