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HDR TV shall support all HDR formats.


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Discussion Starter #1
As the industry is unable to reach a consensus on HDR, consumers should take over and push for universal HDR-compliant TV which shall be compatible with all existing and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats:
. existing HDR formats: HDR10 and Dolby Vision
. being standardized HDR formats: ST 2094-10 Dynamic HDR, ST 2094-20 Dynamic HDR, ST 2094-30 Dynamic HDR, ST 2094-40 Dynamic HDR, BBC/NHK HLG HDR, VP9-HLG and VP9-PQ.

Please vote for universal HDR-compliant TV (i.e. "HDR TV shall support all HDR formats").
Thank you!




=> Dynamic HDR: using open standard SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata
The SMPTE ST 2094 Dynamic Metadata for [reference mastering display to consumer TV] Color Volume Transform includes 4 different dynamic metadata methods "from Dolby, Philips, Technicolor, Samsung that are considered sufficiently different to make it impossible to rationalize into a single method.": ST 2094-10 from Dolby, ST 2094-20 from Philips, ST 2094-30 from Technicolor, ST 2094-40 from Samsung.
The different ST 2094 dynamic metadata methods shall be added to the upcoming HEVC V5, which will be finalized in October 2017.
http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/workprog/wp_search.aspx?isn_sp=1749&isn_sg=1758&isn_wp=2118&isn_qu=2025
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/searchresult.jsp?reload=true&queryText=st 2094&newsearch=true
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/files/Standards Quarterly Outcome Report-September 2015-FINAL.pdf

=> Broadcast HDR: using SMPTE ST 2084 PQ and using HLG
http://www.itu.int/en/mediacentre/Pages/2016-PR27.aspx
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsKmh5mW8AA46Z9.jpg
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-high-dynamic-range-hdr-wide-color-gamut-wcg/2625689-universal-hdr-pq-hlg.html

=> Royalty-free Internet HDR: VP9-PQ, VP9-HLG
https://source.android.com/devices/tech/display/hdr.html
http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articles/Editorial/Featured-Articles/Netflix-Discusses-VP9-Related-Development-Efforts-111296.aspx
http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=110383


The ideal HDR TV shall be compatible with all existing and being standardized (i.e. via TV manufacturer-committed upgrade) HDR formats.

Such an universal HDR TV can be designed around universal HDR-compliant SoC like Sigma Designs STV7804 SoC which is compatible with HLG, HDR10 and Dolby Vision.
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/news/sigma-designs-introduces-worlds-first-uhd-tv-soc-with-100120hz-full-featured-integrated-frame-rate-converter/

Such an universal HDR TV should be compatible with the upcoming HDMI 2.1 which should use the upcoming CTA-861-G supporting HLG and SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata (HDMI 2.0a uses CTA-861.3).
http://danielbafr.free.fr/photos/cta.jpg


Can we let "what happens in the industry happens"?

Can we trust the industry which firstly creates an open standard HDR format (i.e. CTA HDR10 or BDA BDMV HDR =~ ST 2086 + ST 2084), then standardizes the missing dynamic metadata adaptation for consistent visual ST 2094, one of the 3 fundamental HDR building blocks.




As the industry is unable to reach a consensus on HDR, consumers should take over and push for universal HDR-compliant TV which shall be compatible with all existing and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats.

No more early-adopter industry-driven HDR TV incompatible with other HDR content, but consumer-driven universal HDR-compliant TV able to play any HDR content!
 

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Discussion Starter #2

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Discussion Starter #3
Dolby Vision royalty cost

"You may hear about one other difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10. Some people will point out that TV manufacturers pay to have Dolby Vision in their displays, while HDR10 is free. While that’s true, the difference isn’t significant.
The royalty cost to add Dolby Vision ranges from less than $3 per TV to lower than $2 per TV.
Manufacturers are making some very affordable Dolby Vision enabled TVs – Vizio’s M series of Dolby Vision enabled displays includes some that retail for as low as $750."
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dolby-vision-hdr10-what-format-war-giles-baker
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Dynamic metadata SMPTE ST 2094 & Ultra HD Blu-ray

According to Thierry Fautier, President of Ultra HD Forum, open standard dynamic metadata ST 2094 is not part of BDA UHD spec.

BDA’s HDR = BDMV HDR or "HDR10" =~ ST 2084 + ST 2086

 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
About SMPTE 2094 Dynamic HDR timeline

There were no proposals for SMPTE ST 2094 at the last HEVC meeting and after looking around I read that they are thinking of using private SEI messages. A private SEI message can be put in a HEVC stream and any HEVC decoder that recognizes the private SEI message can use it or send it over HDMI 2.1. It makes things a bit more complicated but the advantage is that they wouldn't have to add SMPTE ST 2094 to the HEVC specification and could potentially have support for it in products released in 2017.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=12829939&postcount=551

Thank you, Richard.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Will Your TV Be Compatible With ATSC 3.0 Broadcast HDR?
https://hdguru.com/will-your-tv-be-compatible-with-atsc-3-0-broadcast-hdr/




Some more details:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=12754197#post12754197

In a nutshell they involve the PQ and/or the HLG transfer function and in some cases with various additional technologies tacked on…..

BBC/NHK proposal (HLG)
Samsung/Sharp/Qualcomm joint proposal (HDR10)
Technicolor proposal (transfer function agnostic, i.e. supports both HLG and PQ)
Dolby Vision
Qualcomm proposal (pre-processes HDR10 for a claimed improved result)
Ericsson proposal (pre-processes HDR10 for a claimed improved result)

P.S.
If memory serves, the last proposal on the list above ^ also optimizes the HEVC QP chroma offset values.
Thank you, Penton.
 

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I voted YES

lack of standardized specs for HDR means we are all paying to be beta testers for new displays

and the industry should clean up the HDCP mess they have created too...
 

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If we recognize that there are more uses than just cinema such as sports and entertainment, gaming, then it becomes apparent that hitching our horse to a single, proprietary closed cinema system will effectively kill HDR for other uses. Dolby licensing per television, the number quoted $2-3 per set doesn't sound so unreasonable, but there are other obstacle in the production/distribution chain due to licensing and also due to transmission of metadata and the non-ending revision of HDMI to accommodate it.

The dolby vision workflow of decklinks, CMUs, grading, analyzing, making multiple trim passes, for every conceivable display target from 600-10,000 nits, is lots of unnecessary extra work and in the end, you have to deliver your grade and XML metadata to a post house for creation of the Dolby mezzanine file, for very little additional benefit.

Consider that Sony in their Z9D are heavily touting and betting in the Z9D series that they can simply upscale all your SDR content to nearly as good, close enough that any differences will be small and you won't care. And they are probably right. That's going to leave true HDR to one domain, the big Hollywood Studio productions who can assign value to the Dolby brand.

To avoid that unfortunate outcome, we should all get behind HLG. It's true HDR, it's easy, only slightly less ambitious but more realistic goals, 5000 nit displays, no metadata, compatibility with SDR transmission systems and backward compatible. 17.6 stops of dynamic brightness, more than you can discern in one scene, more than any cinema camera can capture, easy workflow. You will be able to grade your own family videos with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
YouTube HDR

"Starting today, you can watch YouTube videos in HDR on supported devices, such as HDR TVs with the new Chromecast Ultra, and soon on all 2016 Samsung SUHD and UHD TVs."
https://youtube.googleblog.com/2016/11/true-colors-adding-support-for-hdr.html

Apparently, today

VP9-PQ (VP9 profile 2) HDR file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > uncompressed HDR10 video stream >> HDMI 2.0a >> HDR10-compliant TV

and soon VP9-PQ and hopefully VP9-HLG should be implemented on all 2016 Samsung SUHD and UHD TVs.


"Starting today, any creator can upload HDR videos to YouTube".
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552







 

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Discussion Starter #12
YouTube HDR & HDR10

About HDR TVs with the new Chromecast Ultra from "Starting today, you can watch YouTube videos in HDR on supported devices, such as HDR TVs with the new Chromecast Ultra, and soon on all 2016 Samsung SUHD and UHD TVs.":
https://youtube.googleblog.com/2016/11/true-colors-adding-support-for-hdr.html

The VP9-PQ YouTube HDR is not the CTA / BDA HDR10:
. the codec of royalty-free VP9-PQ is the royalty-free 10-bit VP9
. the codec of HDR10 is the royalty-paid 10-bit HEVC H.265.

However, as far as I understand, the attributes of the uncompressed video streams of VP9-PQ & HDR10 from a media player like the Chromecast Ultra to a compatible HDR TV are exactly the same:
. same color primaries Rec.2020
. same transfer function SMPTE ST 2084 PQ
. same static metadata
. same interface HDMI 2.0a


Starting today

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > uncompressed "HDR10" video stream >> HDMI 2.0a >> HDR10 compliant TV

and soon

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant TV

VP9-HLG file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-HLG compliant TV
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The 2nd phase of Ultra HD Premium:
https://www.avforums.com/article/uhda-interview-the-second-phase-of-ultra-hd-premium.13090

"So you’ve achieved your goals to date, what’s next for the Ultra HD Alliance?

Well that brings us on to phase two and we’re now setting our sights on to other related Ultra HD areas. There are really two areas that we’re focussing on and the first is broadcast.

The other area that we’re looking at is very generically called battery powered devices but basically gets into the mobile space.

Well it's obviously dependent on the standards being agreed, especially in the case of broadcast, but hopefully we'll see further announcements at CES in January and then later into 2017.


Speaking of image quality, does the UHD Alliance plan to adopt dynamic metadata for HDR10?

The UHD Alliance is agnostic towards the HDR formats and there’s already HDR10 and Dolby Vision included in our specs. Obviously Dolby is also a member of course and their format already has the capability to deliver dynamic metadata. I think as HDR becomes more commonplace we’ll revisit the specs and things like dynamic metadata will be adopted. As I said we’re agnostic and the current specs aren’t fixed, so they’ll be adjusted as technology changes. Some of the existing specs and standards are already fairly new and in the case of broadcast are still being agreed."
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Near-universal HDR TV

YouTube expects VP9 Profile 2 / YouTube HDR to be included in every HDR TV in 2017.


HDR10 / Dolby Vision TV makers (LG, Vizio, Skyworth, TCL, Loewe or LeEco) will likely add YouTube HDR into their 2017 HDR TV.

These HDR TV should be near-universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, YouTube HDR).

Dynamic HDR / HEVC HLG HDR update should be possible if planned:
. SMPTE ST 2094-10 Dynamic HDR is similar to Dolby Vision leaving out the standardization stuff
. ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata proposed by Dolby seems to be more complex than other ST 2094 dynamic metadata
. Dolby Vision capable SoC should have enough processing power to support any Dynamic HDR.


"CTA HDR10 doesn't specify a codec, and although presence of a VP9 Profile 2 decoder is not universal in this model year, we expect it to be in every HDR TV in 2017, so the distinction will soon be irrelevant to consumers."
[Steven Robertson – YouTube]
https://youtube.googleblog.com/2016/11/true-colors-adding-support-for-hdr.html


CTA HDR10: defines HDR10 compatible displays (i.e. CTA doesn’t specify a codec)
https://www.cta.tech/News/Press-Releases/2015/August/CEA-Defines-‘HDR-Compatible’-Displays.aspx

DECE HDR10: defines HDR10 media profile (i.e. DECE specifies the HEVC codec)
http://www.uvcentral.com/sites/default/files/files/PublicSpecs/CFFMediaFormat-2_1.pdf

(Ultra HD Blu-ray) BDMV HDR = DECE HDR10
http://blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Downloadablefile/BD-ROM-AV-WhitePaper_HEVC_150608a-clean.pdf

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> VP9-PQ YouTube HDR compliant TV

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDR10 compliant TV
 

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Just opinion, but MPEG-LA and HEVC Advance should be hating themselves, their royalty income is being circumvented, and the best current codec is (literally) going down the Tube.
Also on the plate for 2017 is AV1, the successor to HEVC, royalty free, half again as efficient as HEVC. I think I am going to want that too in my next HDR display upgrade.

The YouTube/Chromecast Ultra HDR which is fundamentally a kludge, could soon emerge as the defacto HDR standard for most. As a content developer, although the process works it is extra work encoding to another codec/container, yet another reason I would throw my support behind HLG which does not need metadata, and the display device does not need to switch into and out of a separate (PQ 2084) HDR mode.
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Near-universal HDR media player (HDR10, Dolby Vision, YouTube HDR)

The Chromecast Ultra streaming media player should be compatible with HDR10 (officially announced), Dolby Vision (officially announced), VP9-PQ YouTube HDR and hopefully VP9-HLG YouTube HDR:

Dolby Vision file >> Internet >> Dolby Vision compliant Chromecast Ultra > Dolby Vision uncompressed video >> Dolby Vision compliant TV

Dolby Vision Profile 6 file >> Internet >> Dolby Vision compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDR10 compliant TV

Dolby Vision Profile 0/2/4 file >> Internet >> Dolby Vision compliant Chromecast Ultra > SDR uncompressed video >> SDR TV

HDR10 file >> Internet >> HDR10 compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDR10 compliant TV

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> VP9-PQ YouTube HDR compliant TV

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDR10 compliant TV




http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-profiles-levels.pdf
 

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About HDR TVs with the new Chromecast Ultra from "Starting today, you can watch YouTube videos in HDR on supported devices, such as HDR TVs with the new Chromecast Ultra, and soon on all 2016 Samsung SUHD and UHD TVs.":
https://youtube.googleblog.com/2016/11/true-colors-adding-support-for-hdr.html

The VP9-PQ YouTube HDR is not the CTA / BDA HDR10:
. the codec of royalty-free VP9-PQ is the royalty-free 10-bit VP9
. the codec of HDR10 is the royalty-paid 10-bit HEVC H.265.

However, as far as I understand, the attributes of the uncompressed video streams of VP9-PQ & HDR10 from a media player like the Chromecast Ultra to a compatible HDR TV are exactly the same:
. same color primaries Rec.2020
. same transfer function SMPTE ST 2084 PQ
. same static metadata
. same interface HDMI 2.0a
Does this mean all 2016 Samsung displays could be upgraded to support VP9 Profile 2 with a simple firmware update?
 

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Discussion Starter #19

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I think so, as far as I understand.

The VP9-PQ YouTube HDR firmware upgrade is possible because the 2016 Samsung HDR TVs very likely have a SoC with 10-bit VP9 hardware decoding required by YouTube HDR.

A lot of existing HDR TVs have only 8-bit VP9 decoding capability.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lcd-flat-panel-displays/2378658-official-vizio-2016-p-series-owners-thread-uhd-hdr-dv-no-price-talk-please-219.html#post43318930
At least that's promising news. On Black Friday, I plan on getting Samsung's mid-range KU6300 model for my bedroom. I currently have a Sharp 80" model I got last year on Black Friday, a very good deal I couldn't pass up, but they specifically advertised that they would support any new, emerging technologies, and they touted "SPECTROS' color, which was the best color on a consumer display at the time. The TV is fully compatible with HDMI 2.0 full spec, it does 4k60 4:4:4 72% rec2020, but Sharps tech support is abysmal! "I guess you can say I'm jumping ship and going with a brand that's more reliable in the update department."
 
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