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HDR TV shall support all HDR formats.

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Discussion Starter #342

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Discussion Starter #343
HDR video distribution over IP

HDR video distribution over IP / Gigabit Ethernet:
"Atlona has developed an algorithm for OmniStream that enables full preservation of Dolby Vision HDR metadata while maintaining visually lossless image encoding and decoding, for full interoperability with Dolby Vision HDR streaming media players, Ultra HD Blu-ray devices, and displays.
Atlona’s OmniStream AV over IP product line overcomes the limitation of typical video distribution systems over Gigabit Ethernet networks that eliminate the metadata necessary for Dolby Vision 12-bit at 60 frame-per-second playback, or uncompressed distribution systems that are limited to only 30 frames per second."
https://atlona.com/omnistream-av-over-ip-dolby-vision/



4K HDR source (UHD Blu-ray player, streaming player, …) > HDR video signal >> HDMI >> 4K HDR display

4K HDR source > HDR video signal >> HDMI >> AV_over_IP compression encoder >> Gigabit Ethernet network >> AV_over_IP decompression decoder >> HDMI >> 4K HDR display




 

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HDR video distribution over IP / Gigabit Ethernet:
"Atlona has developed an algorithm for OmniStream that enables full preservation of Dolby Vision HDR metadata while maintaining visually lossless :confused: image encoding and decoding,
On a scientific level, is "visually lossless" a marketing term which actually means "NOT at all lossless", like every other lossy compression system we have in wide use - MPEG, AVC, HEVC etc?

They are all "visually lossless" but I've need seen such a misleading term before.
 

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Discussion Starter #345
"Video compression deals with the compression of still images put in a sequence. Theory for image compression also applies to video compression.
Images and videos tend to contain very redundant information. The main theme of image and video compression therefore revolves around exploiting various kinds of redundancies.
Only exploiting the redundancies directly leads to mathematically lossless compression, where we can reconstruct an image or video sequence perfectly equivalent to the original, but (hopefully) using fewer bits than the original source.
In lossy compression, we reduce bitrate further by introducing errors in the reconstruction. If errors are introduced in a way that is not normally perceptible by humans, we call it visually lossless compression."
https://brage.bibsys.no/xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2400689/10976_FULLTEXT.pdf?sequence=1

"Atlona has adopted a video compression technology developed for critical-quality image viewing in broadcast and production video applications, known as SMPTE VC-2, or Dirac Pro by the BBC, its original inventor. VC-2 addresses the challenge of transporting multigigabit video content over networks through a light compression algorithm that delivers visually lossless, pristine-quality representation of the master source video for postproduction and archiving. VC-2 is standardized by the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers as SMPTE 2042."
http://atlona.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/OmniStream_Whitepaper_Truly_Converged_Networked_AV.pdf

". Video transport over IP networks with VC-2 HQ: Visually lossless and low latency video networking on 1G and 10G Ethernet
. Image and video storage with VC-2 HQ: Mathematically lossless for archiving"
https://www.silexinside.com/content/uploads/VC2_Codec.pdf?type=resource
 

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Discussion Starter #346
SL-HDR2 trial

Live HDR trial with SL-HDR2 (aka Technicolor HDR)
https://advanced-television.com/2018/08/20/arte-new-4k-hdr-trial-in-september/
https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/103400_103499/10343302/01.01.01_60/ts_10343302v010101p.pdf
https://twitter.com/sfaure/status/1042714281639387136



SL-HDR2 = PQ10 (i.e. "HDR10") + SMPTE ST 2094-20/30 color volume transformation dynamic metadata.

When receiving SL-HDR2, HDR10-compliant TVs ignore the SL-HDR2 dynamic metadata and decode the PQ video.

Are there TVs compatible with SL-HDR2 for the time being?

 
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Discussion Starter #347

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Discussion Starter #348

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Discussion Starter #350
Frostbite & HDR

Frostbite (game engine) & HDR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite_(game_engine)
https://twitter.com/kechogarcia/status/1045464603633713152



Frostbite can and will target any HDR standard that makes sense.




Dolby build a custom display mapping for each panel to get the best from it, and achieve standardization of look across displays.




Game can look quite different on each HDR10 TV (i.e. a very loose interpretation of the original creative intent), due to lack of display mapping standardization across manufacturers.



To address this HDR10 issue, display mapping is done at the game level (i.e. game console or PC).
 

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Discussion Starter #351

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Missing from that table: The Playstation 4 (not Pro) also supports HDR10. It doesn't support 4K, but it DOES support HDR10.

Streaming services & HDR formats:

Unverified in that table: There's no proof whatsoever, zero, that Amazon are streaming HDR10+. Press releases from marketeers are all that's needed these days? That's sad. :(

No consumer has seen HDR10+. It has only been shown in private demo rooms, behind closed doors, at trade shows by strict invitation only. They were still doing this last month at IFA!
 

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Missing from that table: The Playstation 4 (not Pro) also supports HDR10. It doesn't support 4K, but it DOES support HDR10.



Unverified in that table: There's no proof whatsoever, zero, that Amazon are streaming HDR10+. Press releases from marketeers are all that's needed these days? That's sad. :(

No consumer has seen HDR10+. It has only been shown in private demo rooms, behind closed doors, at trade shows by strict invitation only. They were still doing this last month at IFA!
That's because Samsung is working on DV support. The Samsung displays capable of HDR10+ will have it as primary format for all Amazon content. Netflix, and Vudu will be DV. If they can get more studio support, then HDR10+ will be primary on Samsung didplays for BD playback.

HDR10+ development required more time then Samsung thought, now they are stuck between a rock and hard place. So they are playing the long game, hoping their format picks up steam.

Just a guess.

Sent from my SM-G550T1 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #355
Av1 & hdr

"Tech giants are lined up behind the 'royalty-free' 4K codec AV1
Get ready for a new video format rolling out later this year."
https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/28/google-apple-intel-av1-netflix-amazon/

With HEVC, HDR metadata are transported by HEVC SEI messages.




With AV1, HDR metadata will be transported by Metadata OBU messages.




With VP9, HDR metadata can’t be transported by a VP9 message. They are conveyed by a WebM container at the beginning of a VP9 session: VP9 can’t support frame by frame Dynamic HDR such as Dolby Vision, VP9 can only support HDR10 (i.e. VP9-PQ YouTube HDR) and HLG (i.e. VP9-HLG YouTube HDR).



Apparently, TVs will also support AV1 from 2020, when AV1-compliant SoC will be available.



HDR AV1 video >> Internet >> future TV with HDR AV1 decoding


Current HDR TVs will be able to play HDR AV1 videos via future cheap streaming players such as Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K or Chromecast Ultra.

HDR AV1 video >> Internet >> future streaming player with HDR AV1 decoding > decoded HDR video signal >> HDMI >> current HDR TV
 

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Discussion Starter #356 (Edited)
Dolby Vision with Minimal Enhancement Layer

"Announced in September, Microsoft has now publicly released the update that adds Dolby Vision support for streaming apps on Xbox One. However, at this time, Dolby Vision is only supported for Netflix.
It should be stressed that this new "low latency profile" is not compatible with all Dolby Vision TVs. LG’s 2016 TVs as well as Vizio TVs are notably missing from the list of supported devices. Microsoft claims that Dolby is getting ”working with TV OEMs to update TVs currently in market”."
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1539730922

I can’t find a Dolby document mentioning this low latency profile.

Without the information on the low latency profile, it is my understanding that there are two main versions of Dolby Vision:
. Dolby Vision before the introduction of the MEL (Minimal Enhancement Layer)
. Dolby Vision with MEL



Goal of MEL: "The MEL can be used to minimize the processing requirements for the enhancement layer and thus ensure broader use among UltraHD (Blu-ray) SoCs."
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-profiles-levels.pdf

A double layer Dolby Vision video stream is composed of a base layer video stream and an enhancement layer video stream.

The full enhancement layer (FEL) is a HEVC video stream with embedded Dolby Vision metadata: it requires a SoC to be capable of simultaneously decoding two video streams (base layer video stream and FEL video stream).

The minimal enhancement layer MEL, a constrained FEL, only consists of metadata: it requires a SoC to be capable of only decoding one single base layer video stream.





original Dolby Vision profile 4 video file stored on a (Netflix) streaming server >> Internet >> original Dolby Vision streaming device > 12-bit Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> original Dolby Vision TV

original Dolby Vision profile 4 video file >> Internet >> new certified Dolby Vision with MEL-compliant streaming device (Xbox One S/X) > 10-bit Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> new certified Dolby Vision with MEL-compliant TV

original Dolby Vision profile 4 video file >> Internet >> Dolby Vision with MEL-compliant streaming device > 10-bit Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> new certified Dolby Vision with FEL-compliant TV (capable of double decoding and capable of identifying & processing a Dolby Vision with MEL bitstream)


"An original profile 4 bitstream with a full enhancement layer distributed after December 31, 2017, may not produce the high dynamic range Dolby Vision video signal on all Dolby Vision devices." [Dolby]

original Dolby Vision profile 4 video file >> Internet >> original Dolby Vision streaming device > 12-bit Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> interoperability issue >> Dolby Vision with MEL-compliant TV 

original Dolby Vision profile 4 video file >> Internet >> streaming device able to convert original FEL to MEL > 10-bit Dolby Vision with MEL video signal >> HDMI >> interoperability issue >> original Dolby Vision TV


Original Dolby Vision TV: 2016 LG OLED TV, Vizio TV, ... (for the time being not yet updated)
(New certified) Dolby Vision with FEL-compliant TV (capable of double decoding and capable of identifying & processing a Dolby Vision with MEL bitstream): 2017/2018 LG OLED TV, ...
(New certified) Dolby Vision with MEL-compliant TV: Sony TV, ...
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/categories/tv/dolby-vision-xbox-compatible.pdf

Original Dolby Vision TVs are capable of simultaneously decoding two video streams like the Dolby Vision with FEL-compliant TVs.
They can be more or less easy to be updated to be compliant with the latest Dolby Vision version: they can do more, i.e. double decoding; they can also do less, i.e. single decoding.
https://twitter.com/xQuatroK/status/1051972830651445254
https://twitter.com/VIZIO/status/1051962330475634690
 

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Discussion Starter #357
Cambridge UHD Blu-ray player & Dolby Vision with MEL & HDR10+

"Hello xxxxxx,

These are all the things that have been confirmed, while there may be more:

1. HDR10+ support
2. Supports Sony TV Dolby Vision
3. Bug fixes
4. HDMI IN supports Dolby Vision
5. Add 3 Aspect Ratio modes "21:9 Movable, 21:9 Fixed and 21:9 Cropped"

If you ever have any other questions or concerns in the future, please don't hesitate to reach out.

Thank you and we wish you the best with your future listening.

Best Regards," [Cambridge Audio]
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-...ray-player-owner-s-thread-5.html#post56926180

The Cambridge CXUHD is a customized Oppo UDP-203 UHD Blu-ray player.
Apparently, Oppo is also "exploring the feasibility of bringing hdr10+ within the next few firmware updates."
https://twitter.com/OPPODIGITAL/status/1039978835821834240
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-...l-hdr-compliant-displays-10.html#post55533420





The Cambridge CXUHD will support Sony TV Dolby Vision, i.e. Dolby Vision with MEL (Minimal Enhancement Layer) apparently, which is already supported by Oppo.

"For Dolby Vision profile 7: Base layer/enhancement layer full alignment is required, as documented in Blu-ray Disc Association Specifications." [Dolby] 
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-profiles-levels.pdf

dual layer Dolby Vision (i.e. Dolby Vision Profile 7 with base layer & Full Enhancement Layer) AV file stored on UHD Blu-ray disc > UHD Blu-ray player: decoding of the HEVC base layer video stream and the HEVC enhancement layer video stream > reassembling the video signal from the base layer image, the enhancement layer image and the metadata > Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision TV capable of simultaneously decoding two HEVC video streams (same profile for decoding in TV or in player)

"For Dolby Vision profile 7: The MEL can be used to minimize the processing requirements for the enhancement layer and thus ensure broader use among UltraHD Blu-ray SoCs." [Dolby] 

dual layer Dolby Vision AV file stored on UHD Blu-ray disc > UHD Blu-ray player: converting FEL to MEL (i.e. removing the HEVC video stream of the full enhancement layer) > decoding of the HEVC base layer video stream > reassembling the video signal from the base layer image and the metadata > Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision TV capable of only decoding one single HEVC video stream
 

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The Cambridge CXUHD will support Sony TV Dolby Vision, i.e. Dolby Vision with MEL (Minimal Enhancement Layer) apparently, which is already supported by Oppo.

"For Dolby Vision profile 7: Base layer/enhancement layer full alignment is required, as documented in Blu-ray Disc Association Specifications." [Dolby] 
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-profiles-levels.pdf

dual layer Dolby Vision (i.e. Dolby Vision Profile 7 with base layer & Full Enhancement Layer) AV file stored on UHD Blu-ray disc > UHD Blu-ray player: decoding of the HEVC base layer video stream and the HEVC enhancement layer video stream > reassembling the video signal from the base layer image, the enhancement layer image and the metadata > Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision TV capable of simultaneously decoding two HEVC video streams (same profile for decoding in TV or in player)

"For Dolby Vision profile 7: The MEL can be used to minimize the processing requirements for the enhancement layer and thus ensure broader use among UltraHD Blu-ray SoCs." [Dolby] 

dual layer Dolby Vision AV file stored on UHD Blu-ray disc > UHD Blu-ray player: converting FEL to MEL (i.e. removing the HEVC video stream of the full enhancement layer) > decoding of the HEVC base layer video stream > reassembling the video signal from the base layer image and the metadata > Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision TV capable of only decoding one single HEVC video stream
Thanks for posting this. I think I understand it, but block diagrams would be a hell of a lot easier to understand.

When they say their player will support "Sony TV Dolby Vision", what I really want to know is whether they mean it will ONLY support Sony TV Dolby Vision output, or whether it will ALSO support "full fat" Dolby Vision output as well. The way they have phrased it is very confusing.
 

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Discussion Starter #359
It is my understanding that the Cambridge CXUHD supports Dual Stream Dolby Vision with Full Enhancement Layer for the time being.

dual stream Dolby Vision AV file stored on UHD Blu-ray disc > UHD Blu-ray player (i.e. external Dolby Vision decoder): HEVC decoders: decoding of the HEVC base layer video stream and the HEVC enhancement layer video stream > composer: reassembling the video signal from the base layer image, the enhancement layer image and the metadata > Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision TV capable of simultaneously decoding two HEVC video streams like the LG OLED TV




Apparently, the Cambridge CXUHD will support Dual Stream Dolby Vision with Minimum Enhancement Layer.

dual stream Dolby Vision AV file stored on UHD Blu-ray disc > UHD Blu-ray player (i.e. external Dolby Vision decoder): converting FEL to MEL (i.e. removing the HEVC video stream of the full enhancement layer) > HEVC decoder: decoding of the HEVC base layer video stream > composer: reassembling the video signal from the base layer image and the metadata > Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision TV capable of only decoding one single HEVC video stream like the Sony TV



Dolby Vision Display Management = Dolby Vision Display Adaptation or Dolby Vision Display Mapping

The dual stream Dolby Vision is also documented in UHD Blu-ray Specifications or in DASH-IF Interoperability Points.
https://dashif.org/docs/DASH-IF-IOP-v4.2-clean.htm


Single stream Dolby Vision – External streaming device & Dolby Vision TV capable of double stream decoding

single stream Dolby Vision AV file stored on streaming server >> Internet >> external streaming device: HEVC decoder: decoding of the HEVC video stream > composer: reassembling the video signal from the decoded image and the metadata > Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision TV capable of simultaneously decoding two HEVC video streams




Single stream Dolby Vision – External streaming device & Dolby Vision TV capable of single stream decoding

single stream Dolby Vision AV file stored on streaming server >> Internet >> external streaming device: HEVC decoder: decoding of the HEVC video stream > composer: reassembling the video signal from the decoded image and the metadata > Dolby Vision video signal >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision TV capable of only decoding one single HEVC video stream

 

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Thankyou, that's great! Are you representing "streaming video" (top right) and "external 4k blu-ray player" (left) together on the same diagram, in each case? There seem to be two paths.

If a Sony TV is faced with a double-stream dolby signal, presumably it can't decode it. So double-stream dolby signal will completely stop being used by everyone, in case the customer only has a Sony TV?
 
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