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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've read a few posts about chatter (jitter) on the bottom and top 5% of the picture, when feeding component 480p into the 165 for upconversion to 1080i. I definitely see this jitter, especially when displaying the AVIA resolution pattern.


Now, I also see some flaws in the 165's 1080i upconversion of 480i DVD via component. On 1.85 aspect DVDs, some scenes where the camera pans reveal jagged lines/combing at the bottom and top portions of the picture. For example, the edge of the black lines on 1.85 DVDs will strobe and the lines become uneven at and around this picture area. It's hard to describe these artifacts but certian scenes in Star Wars AOTC clearly reveal them. I also notice these flaws on 2.35 aspect DVDs to a lesser degree.


Does anyone else notice these upconversion annomalies? I know this is a consequence of the 165 because I don't see this combing with my 480p DVD player directly into my TV. Since it only seems the top and bottom portion of the picture is effected, I wonder if this can be fixed with a firmware upgrade? Do you think this may be a hardware limitation, if the 165 lacks 3:2 pulldown?


Notwithstanding these flaws, I still prefer the 165's upconversion to 1080i to 480p from my DVD player. The 165 produces a sharper and smoother picture with less visible scanlines. If these combing problems could be fixed, I'd be very satisfied with the upconversion. Considering its $499 price, I'm surprised the 165 does even a decent job of upconverting.


Thanks,

Andrew
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Has anyone else done A/B comparisions between 480p from their DVD player and the 165 upconverting DVD to 1080i? I'd like to confirm that my 165 isn't defective. I can live with these problems if it's the nature of the upconversion, but not if my receiver is defective. As Rudy suggested in another thread, maybe it's the combination of my equipment.


I'd appreciate any input from other 165 owers using the unit as an upcovnerter.
 

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I have been having the same problem. I have my Panny rp-91 going thru the 165 and have the output set at 720p. I am also getting the picture distortion at the bottom of the screen. My plan is to get the AA 1154 and send the dvd output thru that directly to my sanyo plv-60
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I've found a clear-cut way to show the shortcomings of the 165's upconversion. The scrolling credits at the end of DVDs have a slight to pronounced shimmering effect (lack smoothness). On the direct 480p from my DVD player the text is smooth on Star Wars. The 1080i upconversion on the 165 displays jagged-looking scrolling text. The more I compare these differences, the more disappointed I am in the 165's upconversion. Do other owners see these problems? If not, I'm thinking I may have a defective 165.


Thanks,

Andrew
 

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Scrolling text of end credits is definitely a good test.


The Sage/Faroudja "flag" test (available on the free Kenwood Sovereign demo DVD) gives pretty poor results even going from 480i to 1080i on the T165. (Terrible stair-stepping along the diagonal edges of the moving flag stripes.)


480p->1080i has its own issues. If you think about it, 480p to 1080i is kind of a weird conversion. You're going from 60 frames per second to 60 fields per second, and the simple way to do it (just scale alternate fields for the output from alternate frames of the input) will do some wacky things if motion compensation has been applied in generating the 480p (DCDi etc.) (Whereas, 480p->720p and 480i->1080i are more straightforward conversions.) This doesn't explain the black level and jittering problems, though.


I haven't thoroughly tested the film mode processing (if any) done by the T165 since I haven't got the 720p displayed yet (3:2 pulldown etc. is not relevant with the 1080i output, of course). The T165's 720p component output was not compatible with my DLP projector. I will see if 720p via RGB works with my projector and post any findings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Mark,


So you are seeing the same jagged text? Just want to make sure I'm not alone. I guess we shoudn't expect great video processing from a $500 HD receiver, but I was hoping for more. I guess I'll bypass the 165 and continue to go direct to the TV with 480p. However, for digital cable, I still prefer the 165 over my TV's line doubling. My TV's processing produces much worse artifacts than the 165.


I guess the CS-1 is still the best bet for upconverting DVDs to 1080i at a reasonable price. I was hoping the 165 would be adequate because I prefer the general appearance of DVDs upconverted to 1080i vs. 480p. However, the 165 introduces too many additional artifacts to offset the smoother appearance of 1080i. Does anyone know of a decent cheaper solution (3:2 pulldown) to upconvert DVDs to 1080i than the CS-1?


Andrew
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I guess most of you 165 owners haven't used this unit to upconvert DVDs?
 

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Have the same bottom jitter problem with running my Panasonic Progressive DVD through the 165.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thundrthud,


Have you noticed the same problem to a lesser extent when feeding your 165 480i from your DVD player? The scrolling credits text is a perfect test for these processing issues.


Thanks,

Andrew
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Solo,


Have you tried both 480i and 480p from your DVD player into the 165? There is a noticable jitter at the top and bottom of the picture with 480p into the 165. However, I notice processing issues (i.e. jagginess during motion) on both 480p and 480i upconverted to 1080i by the 165? I wonder if contacting Samsung would help. Could a firmware upgrade improve the video processing of the 165 or is it a hardware limitation?


Thanks,

Andrew
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Since my thread was resurrected from the dead, do any 165 owners have any more comments about the unit's upconversion?
 

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Andrew,


The upconversion from 480p to 1080i did not work on my Toshiba 6200 DVD Player. There was video but it scrambled every second or so. Bummer. The XBOX looks pretty good at 480p->1080i tho.


--Rick
 

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Scrambled every second or so? It's probably the Macrovision (which among other things, places some white boxes up in the vertical blank region that fade on and off about once per second in hopes of messing with the AGC in your VCR). I had the Toshiba 6200 briefly when it came out, but quickly found that it has a particularly nasty implementation of Macrovision (even on the 480p output) that messed up the picture on my projector.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I'm really interested in input on the upconversion from 480i to 1080i. 480p into the 165 produces a jittery picture on the top and bottom 5% of the picture. Also, the picture isn't as sharp as inputting 480i into the 165. However, I see deinterlacing problems even with 480i into the 165 as I described above. Scrolling text at the conclusion of movies usually illustrates deinteraling issues with the 165. Reference my previous posts on this thread.


Andrew
 

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Andrew,

The 480i sourced upconversion on the SIR-T165 is absolutely godawful from even the best C-band analog and digicipher satellite feeds.


Haven't had a chance to try it with DVD but I don't have high hopes.


I am using a Panasonic DT-M3050W HD studio broadcast monitor, so I can compare native 480i to the upconvert.


The upconversion is of absolutely emetic quality...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Tmitchmd,


Actually, I'm satisfied with the 165's upconversion of 480i from digital cable on my system. The 165 does a better job of upconverting than the internal line doubler on my Mits HDTV. The picture is quite smooth and sharp, especially on the premium channels like HBO and SHO. However, the shortcomings of the 165's upconversion is more apparent on the higher resolution of DVDs.


Andrew
 

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On a (calibrated) TW40X81, using a Denon DVD2800, 480p is clearly sharper and much more smoother than 480i. I have been unable to reproduce any of the problems reported here with either 480i or 480p. Upconversion of my extremely poor analog cable signal (courtesy of AT&T) is marginal....the TV's internal line doubler provides a more "natural" looking picture.


With a 480p source, the resulting 1080i image has more apparent detail, and is similar in quality to the softest HD movies I've seen on ABC. It does not in any way fool you into thinking that you're watching HD, but in my opinion it surpasses what I get straight from the Denon. I have noticed that in the fastest action sequences on some DVDs the image takes on a slight "slow motion" look to it (sort of like 24p), but this lasts for just a few seconds and never occurs in exactly the same place in the movie every time.
 
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