AVS Forum banner
1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,


I have a Marantz 4001 and JBL LX44 as the fronts and HKTS 11 as the surrounds, center, and sub. I have about $600 to spend.


Reciever with pre/outs and hd codecs

Emotiva UPA-7

Fronts and center


With my blue ray the system sounds really clean so I'm not sure the hd codecs will wow me. I think I'm getting the 640 dolby digital and DTS core. Will the extra power or better fronts and center be the best bang for the buck in a noticeable difference (if any).


Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,508 Posts
I'm not sure there's a point to upgrading your AVR if you aren't unhappy with it. I doubt more power is going to make much of a difference with those speakers.


As a result, I would definitely look to upgrade the speakers before the amp. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if $600 is going to get you a substantial upgrade in your main speakers.


I am guessing you use the system primarily for video and HTIBs don't tend to have especially good subwoofers. So my recommendation would be to spend the money on a good sub, since it makes a substantial difference for movies and can let your mains concentrate more on the mid range. Plus, a good sub can last you for decades.


SVS has a couple of good subs in the $600 range.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_nsd.cfm


Unless you have a HUGE room, the SVS should do very, very nicely. I have one of their PC+ subs and have been extremely pleased with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TPnBobcats /forum/post/15561595


If your AVR has the HD codecs, I'm not sure there's a point to upgrading it if you aren't unhappy with it. I doubt more power is going to make much of a difference with those speakers.


As a result, I would definitely look to upgrade the speakers before the amp. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if $600 is going to get you a substantial upgrade in your main speakers.


I am guessing you use the system primarily for video and that you don't have an especially good subwoofer. So my recommendation would be to spend the money on a good sub, since it makes a substantial difference for movies and can let your mains concentrate more on the mid range. Plus, a good sub can last you for decades.


SVS has a couple of good subs in the $600 range.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_nsd.cfm


Unless you have a HUGE room, the SVS should do very, very nicely. I have one of their PC+ subs and have been extremely pleased with it.


I don't have the HD codecs with my receiver, but unless I'm mistaken blue ray movies will at least play the higher quality dolby digital 640 bandwidth and DTS core. I might even be getting true hd through PCM but I'm not sure. My sub actually performs pretty good but not even close to the svs subs. I was looking to see maybe to try and get the Energy Speakers which are on sale; C-500 if i can find one or C-300 fronts plus the C-C100 center. So it may come down to the Energy line or a sub.


So I take it you don't thing the 125 watt/ channel Emotiva will have much impact over the 80 watt/channel Marantz? Interesting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,923 Posts
80 vs 125 is tricky as I have no idea what the Marantz can actually put out. If it's rated like many other receivers, it might do as little as 1/3 of it's rated power with all channels driven. For argument's sake, let's assume the Marantz could push 60x7. In that case, 125 would give you a 3 dB gain in SPL. There are other factors, such as dynamic power.


It's really hard to say. Some will say external amps provide a huge improvement in sound. They will say amplifiers are crippled just because they are inside a receiver. There's a lot of BS out there, really - so it's hard to separate fact from fancy.


As far as speakers go, speakers do seem to make a bigger difference in sound than electronics do. Speakers are more likely an excercise in compromises. They are not particularly linear compared to electronics. They have much higher distortion than electronics do. More importantly, they often sound noticably different from each other.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
619 Posts
The HD codecs will WOW you...it's that good....Although i do admit, the full DTS-core 1.5 on a blu-ray is really good. But TrueHD is MUCH better than DD.


your marantz is capable of 7.1 inputs....I'd personally consider picking up a blu-ray that outputs the new codec. Prices are dropping so fast for the Panasonic 55...and I think the sharp 21 player also decodes both trueHD and DTS-MA over analogue....


next is to get the Emotiva UPA7 that's on sale. You'll be over your 600 budget especially after all the RCA interconnects you'll be buying, but that's your biggest bang for your buck.


best off the UPA7 amp is more than enough power to work with when you decide on a new pre/pro (onkyo/integra, the upcoming Emotiva or what ever is coming around the corner). if you buy another receiver, you're buying amps that you'll not use anyway cause the Emotiva UPA7 is that much better.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoover /forum/post/15560680


Hi all,


I have a Marantz 4001 and JBL LX44 as the fronts and HKTS 11 as the surrounds, center, and sub. I have about $600 to spend.


Reciever with pre/outs and hd codecs

Emotiva UPA-7

Fronts and center


With my blue ray the system sounds really clean so I'm not sure the hd codecs will wow me. I think I'm getting the 640 dolby digital and DTS core. Will the extra power or better fronts and center be the best bang for the buck in a noticeable difference (if any).


Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,508 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoover /forum/post/15561834


I don't have the HD codecs with my receiver, but unless I'm mistaken blue ray movies will at least play the higher quality dolby digital 640 bandwidth and DTS core. I might even be getting true hd through PCM but I'm not sure. My sub actually performs pretty good but not even close to the svs subs. I was looking to see maybe to try and get the Energy Speakers which are on sale; C-500 if i can find one or C-300 fronts plus the C-C100 center. So it may come down to the Energy line or a sub.


So I take it you don't thing the 125 watt/ channel Emotiva will have much impact over the 80 watt/channel Marantz? Interesting.

As a basic rule of thumb I typically recommend spending at least twice as much on your speakers as on the electronics. For a really good system it's probably going to be even higher than that.


Good speakers will last you a long time. Electronics changes every year, the basics of creating sound doesn't. Also your system can't possibly recreate sounds your speakers can't generate.


I did a really terrible job of parsing your post, I was under the impression you had the UPA-7 actually. But no I wouldn't really recommend it for you.


To get a lot out of an external amp, you need 3 things to be true.


1) It has to represent a major increase in power.


You need to double the power to get a 3db (minimum noticable) increase in sound, so to get a 6db increase you need x4 the power. So vs your AVR you'd need something like 300 wpc to get that. If you do want to go with an external amp, you'd be better off with something like the XPA-2 (2x250 wpc) or XPA-3 (3x200wpc).


2) Difficult to drive speakers


The lower the resistance on the speakers, the more difficult to drive they are. Most AVRs are not rated to work with 4 ohm or lower speakers and only the most expensive amps (> $1,000) are generally rated for use with 2 ohm speakers. Really good amps, will double their power output, when the resistance halves, but only the most expensive amps can manage that and the closer they get to that ideal, the better the amp is. So if you have speakers like that you can definitely get some benefit out an external amp.


3) Low bass capability


This is was sucks up most of the power on speakers and why it is generally pointless providing gobs of power to most surround speakers. They just can't go low enough that they are going to benefit substantially.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by poopiehead /forum/post/15562081


The HD codecs will WOW you...it's that good....Although i do admit, the full DTS-core 1.5 on a blu-ray is really good. But TrueHD is MUCH better than DD.


your marantz is capable of 7.1 inputs....I'd personally consider picking up a blu-ray that outputs the new codec. Prices are dropping so fast for the Panasonic 55...and I think the sharp 21 player also decodes both trueHD and DTS-MA over analogue....


next is to get the Emotiva UPA7 that's on sale. You'll be over your 600 budget especially after all the RCA interconnects you'll be buying, but that's your biggest bang for your buck.


best off the UPA7 amp is more than enough power to work with when you decide on a new pre/pro (onkyo/integra, the upcoming Emotiva or what ever is coming around the corner). if you buy another receiver, you're buying amps that you'll not use anyway cause the Emotiva UPA7 is that much better.

I got a sony BD-350 (?) for Christmas. I didn't think my Marantz would output 7.1 LPCM when I asked for the sony as I was planning on eventially upgrading recievers or pre/pro. If you read the threads it is still not clear if the 4001 outputs LPCM. Some say yes and some say no. I've watched several movies with the blue ray and especially The Dark Knight and the sound was incredible which makes me believe I either get DD 640 and DTS 1.5 or true hd. I'll be able to pick up the Marantz 5003 later in the year for a good price once the new models come out for the hd codecs. I like the denon 2908 but it's kind of pricy if I eventually get an external amp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TPnBobcats /forum/post/15562084


As a basic rule of thumb I typically recommend spending at least twice as much on your speakers as on the electronics. For a really good system it's probably going to be even higher than that.


Good speakers will last you a long time. Electronics changes every year, the basics of creating sound doesn't. Also your system can't possibly recreate sounds your speakers can't generate.


I did a really terrible job of parsing your post, I was under the impression you had the UPA-7 actually. But no I wouldn't really recommend it for you.


To get a lot out of an external amp, you need 3 things to be true.


1) It has to represent a major increase in power.


You need to double the power to get a 3db (minimum noticable) increase in sound, so to get a 6db increase you need x4 the power. So vs your AVR you'd need something like 300 wpc to get that. If you do want to go with an external amp, you'd be better off with something like the XPA-2 (2x250 wpc) or XPA-3 (3x200wpc).


2) Difficult to drive speakers


The lower the resistance on the speakers, the more difficult to drive they are. Most AVRs are not rated to work with 4 ohm or lower speakers and only the most expensive amps (> $1,000) are generally rated for use with 2 ohm speakers. Really good amps, will double their power output, when the resistance halves, but only the most expensive amps can manage that and the closer they get to that ideal, the better the amp is. So if you have speakers like that you can definitely get some benefit out an external amp.


3) Low bass capability


This is was sucks up most of the power on speakers and why it is generally pointless providing gobs of power to most surround speakers. They just can't go low enough that they are going to benefit substantially.

Interesting. An Emotiva will almost double the output at 4 ohms @ 150 watts/channel from current setup. Sounds like I might need to keep my powder dry on the fronts until I can afford better 4 ohm speakers. It's almost sounding like a good sub or maybe the Emotiva might be the best bang for now if I decide to upgrade anything.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,508 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoover /forum/post/15562521


Interesting. An Emotiva will almost double the output at 4 ohms @ 150 watts/channel from current setup. Sounds like I might need to keep my powder dry on the fronts until I can afford better 4 ohm speakers. It's almost sounding like a good sub or maybe the Emotiva might be the best bang for now if I decide to upgrade anything.

Two things.


1) You don't need 300 wpc necessarily to see an improvement. That was mostly just to demonstrate how small increases in power aren't likely to make a difference (say 100 wpc vs 80).


2) The ohms of the speaker don't correlate to quality. There are plenty of terrific 8 ohm speakers.


The important point with the ohms is that low resistance speakers are generally not driven well by the amps in most AVRs, but a decent external amp will drive them well.


Also since poor amp sections won't deliver significantly more power into a low resistance load, a good external amp will have an even greater output advantage for that load.


Say the amp section in your AVR outputs 100 wpc (# pulled from thin air) into a 4 ohm load. If you compared that to an amp that delivers 200 wpc into 8 ohm and 350 wpc into a 4 ohm load you are talking a 3.5x increase into 4 ohms vs a 2.5x increase at 8 ohms. Depending on how much trouble an AVR's amps have driving a 4 ohm load, you could see an even greater difference.


One last thing I forgot to mention is that the efficiency of the speakers, also factors in. You'll typically see this expressed as "88 db at 1 watt" or maybe just "88 db". Low efficiency speakers benefit much more than high efficiency speakers from lots of power. Since it takes x4 power to make a 88 db speaker achieve the same volume level as a 94 db speaker.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/15562061


80 vs 125 is tricky as I have no idea what the Marantz can actually put out. If it's rated like many other receivers, it might do as little as 1/3 of it's rated power with all channels driven. For argument's sake, let's assume the Marantz could push 60x7. In that case, 125 would give you a 3 dB gain in SPL. There are other factors, such as dynamic power.


It's really hard to say. Some will say external amps provide a huge improvement in sound. They will say amplifiers are crippled just because they are inside a receiver. There's a lot of BS out there, really - so it's hard to separate fact from fancy.


As far as speakers go, speakers do seem to make a bigger difference in sound than electronics do. Speakers are more likely an excercise in compromises. They are not particularly linear compared to electronics. They have much higher distortion than electronics do. More importantly, they often sound noticably different from each other.


From the Marantz threads I have read, what they claim to output is supposed to be pretty much on target...but you never know.
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Top