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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
I am wondering just how good the PSA mtm 210s sound. If they are as good as I think then that is what I want to try for LCR to match my new tv2112 if I ever upgrade my LCR speakers. Currently RBH Sound so they are pretty good.

I recently purchased 8 htm 200se surrounds from Dave at Ascend Acoustics, he is great and you can't beat talking to the guy that built your speakers if you have a question or problem. Much like Tom at PSA.

Not a huge fan of BB .... the restocking fee is tough but you do what you gotta do. I bought my PJ from them only because I knew I woul love the 3800 and I STILL had an hdmi switching issue and had to have it replaced. Was lucky I figured it out within the 30 day return period.

Good luck!

Btw, I also have a Denon 4700 and I highly recommend using the Audyssey app(20 bucks) and create a 300-500Hz curtain. Doing this opened up my speakers and made them come alive. Don't let Audyssey do anything to the highs with good speakers. The app is SO much better than the avr version.

Good luck.

I honestly never buy anything expensive at BB....I'm really not a fan. But I have a co-worker who works there part time (mostly for the discount) and so I have a hookup there and I will have 45 day no issue returns.

That said, it looks like the only speakers there that are available and fit my needs are SVS. So for around $1K, I'm also looking at Emotiva and Ascend. I worry about driving the Emotiva's with a AVR (Denon 4700). The Ascends I just wish had a shorter option for their flood stands.

I agree 100% about Audyssey. The app and a 200Hz curtain has made it MUCH easier to get good results. Total game changer being able to do as many runs as you want and never have to worry about "will I like the next one better or regret changing it".....I've lived that headache.
 

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I worry about driving the Emotiva's with a AVR (Denon 4700).
The Denon X4700H can easily drive the Emotivas. You'd only need to worry about their 4ohm nominal impedance if you crank it to 11 all day every day.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
The Denon X4700H can easily drive the Emotivas. You'd only need to worry about their 4ohm nominal impedance if you crank it to 11 all day every day.
It’s the heat I worry about. I know it can technically handle them. The other thing is their better c2 center is out of stock for now.

it looks like if I’m going through with any lcr upgrade I’m going to stand mount the tv to allow the center to sit in front on the top shelf. This would eliminate the spacing and acoustic issues. It’s the right move but I do worry I’m going to see reflections off even a matte finished center but I have some triple black velvet left over that i think I have enough to cover the top.

then I wonder is any of this going to be worth all the hastle:unsure:
 

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It’s the heat I worry about. I know it can technically handle them. The other thing is their better c2 center is out of stock for now.

it looks like if I’m going through with any lcr upgrade I’m going to stand mount the tv to allow the center to sit in front on the top shelf. This would eliminate the spacing and acoustic issues. It’s the right move but I do worry I’m going to see reflections off even a matte finished center but I have some triple black velvet left over that i think I have enough to cover the top.

then I wonder is any of this going to be worth all the hastle:unsure:
Again, it's not going to be a problem unless you crank it the whole time. Also, set Eco mode to Auto. It doesn't affect sound quality, and will kick in to full power mode only when it needs to rather than being on all the time - that will significantly reduce the amount of heat produced, regardless of the speakers you have connected.

How big is your room, and how far do you sit away from your system? If you're within 10 feet, the larger C2+ won't be necessary.

You're fretting too much.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Again, it's not going to be a problem unless you crank it the whole time. Also, set Eco mode to Auto. It doesn't affect sound quality, and will kick in to full power mode only when it needs to rather than being on all the time - that will significantly reduce the amount of heat produced, regardless of the speakers you have connected.

How big is your room, and how far do you sit away from your system? If you're within 10 feet, the larger C2+ won't be necessary.

You're fretting too much.
That's what I do, I fret and I learn things...lol. I a big over analyzer, but it usually pays off for me in fewer regrets.


I'm right on that 10-11ft distance depending on recline amount. Room is about 14x14x8, so not huge. When I did a little digging around eco mode, most of what I read was turn it off. I usually not a big fan of any kind of "eco" mode regulating power. I'll do a bit more research. Currently it just gets warm, not hot.

I dont know much about Emotiva so I need to do some research on them. I know the Ascends have been popular and highly recommended. those and the SVS setup are mostly what I am looking at. The biggest pain is going to be finding the right stand that will get me just to 9-10" of clearance under the TV. Even still the center will overhang about 2" depending on the model.
 

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I'm right on that 10-11ft distance depending on recline amount. Room is about 14x14x8, so not huge. When I did a little digging around eco mode, most of what I read was turn it off. I usually not a big fan of any kind of "eco" mode regulating power. I'll do a bit more research. Currently it just gets warm, not hot.

I dont know much about Emotiva so I need to do some research on them. I know the Ascends have been popular and highly recommended. those and the SVS setup are mostly what I am looking at. The biggest pain is going to be finding the right stand that will get me just to 9-10" of clearance under the TV. Even still the center will overhang about 2" depending on the model.
The C1+ would probably be fine in your space.

There's no sense in running the AVR in full power mode all the time if it isn't using that power at lower volume levels. It's wasting energy, and generating unnecessary heat that only serves to reduce the lifespan of your equipment. Setting it to Auto rather than On removes any of its limitations since it kicks in to full power mode when necessary.

You could use a stand like this:


I use the floor model tucked behind my TV cabinet, and it's raised up to where I have 9" of clearance under the TV.
 
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Discussion Starter #47
The C1+ would probably be fine in your space.

There's no sense in running the AVR in full power mode all the time if it isn't using that power at lower volume levels. It's wasting energy, and generating unnecessary heat that only serves to reduce the lifespan of your equipment. Setting it to Auto rather than On removes any of its limitations since it kicks in to full power mode when necessary.

You could use a stand like this:


I use the floor model tucked behind my TV cabinet, and it's raised up to where I have 9" of clearance under the TV.

Yes those are the stands I am looking at only the smaller one so the base is 11" deep made for 65" tvs. With 19" depth on the shelf, that leaves 8" of depth for the speaker and about 2" over overhang as most are 10" deep.

I hear you on the eco mode, but without really knowing what Denon is doing I'm just not a fan of trusting their power management. Not saying your wrong, I just cant say I have researched it enough for my own edification.

In any case I sincerely appreciate the alternative suggestions and I am researching those as viable options against the SVS setup. If I were to go emotive, I probably would want to wait for the C2...I just like larger centers, maybe all in my head but thats the one speaker I want overbuilt besides the subs.

I also have to factor in these companies return policies.
 

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I hear you on the eco mode, but without really knowing what Denon is doing I'm just not a fan of trusting their power management. Not saying your wrong, I just cant say I have researched it enough for my own edification.
Again, fretting too much. It's fine. All it does is reduce the amount of power it's feeding to the amps when it's not required. I have a Marantz, which is the same company, and I set it to Auto, so I know it's fine. You can ask on the official Denon 2020 AVR thread on this site to find out specifics. @jdsmoothie is a wealth of knowledge.
 

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I also have to factor in these companies return policies.
Get the SVS setup and try the Ultra center with the tweeter at the top and then flip it over so the tweeter is at the bottom as part of your in home testing due to the bar situation.
 

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Discussion Starter #50 (Edited)
Get the SVS setup and try the Ultra center with the tweeter at the top and then flip it over so the tweeter is at the bottom as part of your in home testing due to the bar situation.

Thats a great idea! But then I looked and I wonder if the placement of the midrange would actually be obstructed by the bar since it seems like it would be higher than the tweeter....I'll have to ask SVS for that measurement. Come to think of it, the woofers themselves extend higher than the tweeter....so it may be a no go unless I raise the TV.


3120420
 

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Thats a great idea! But then I looked and I wonder if the placement of the midrange would actually be obstructed by the bar since it seems like it would be higher than the tweeter....I'll have to ask SVS for that measurement. Come to think of it, the woofers themselves extend higher than the tweeter....so it may be a no go unless I raise the TV.


View attachment 3120420
The good news is the bar might limit vertical dispersion which many many manufacturers do purposely with their centers.

I'd be more worried about horizontal dispersion.

It could work the center is at ear height when seated.

One way to find out with no financial risk.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
The good news is the bar might limit vertical dispersion which many many manufacturers do purposely with their centers.

I'd be more worried about horizontal dispersion.

It could work the center is at ear height when seated.

One way to find out with no financial risk.

If thats the case maybe its best left right side up anyway. I don't think horizontal is affected as much by the bar.

Yeah I know....no financial risk is a good point.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Again, fretting too much. It's fine. All it does is reduce the amount of power it's feeding to the amps when it's not required. I have a Marantz, which is the same company, and I set it to Auto, so I know it's fine. You can ask on the official Denon 2020 AVR thread on this site to find out specifics. @jdsmoothie is a wealth of knowledge.
Imagine being my wife....poor woman.😅
 

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If thats the case maybe its best left right side up anyway. I don't think horizontal is affected as much by the bar.

Yeah I know....no financial risk is a good point.
Martin Logan, for example, limits vertical dispersion on their XT centers to 30 percent vs 80 percent horizontal.

Also, note the Ultra tweeter is quite far forward in the driver basket.

 

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I hear you on the eco mode, but without really knowing what Denon is doing I'm just not a fan of trusting their power management. Not saying your wrong, I just cant say I have researched it enough for my own edification.
From another thread here:
When ECO Mode is used, voltage for the amp stage decreases about 1/3 and amplifier stage energy loss decreases about 1/6 compared to ECO Mode being OFF.
It is recommend when using external amplification to leave ECO Mode set to ON. This will reduce power consumption to less than 70W.
When using ECO Mode ON at lower volume levels (under 45 Absolute) power consumption is about 1/2 as compared to leaving ECO Mode OFF. This is useful if using the AVR at night and you do not want to disturb others.
When using ECO Mode Auto, the circuit will control the power supply voltage by a relay. If the volume level is more than 45 Absolute the circuit will cut off. If the volume is less than 45 Absolute the circuit will switch on automatically. If listening at the threshold level (45) you will hear the relay clicking on and off frequently. Voltage for the amp stage does not change here, so power consumption would be the same as normal.


So basically, with it set to Auto, if you're above about -37dB from reference (if I recall correctly), Eco mode isn't on anyway. No reason not to leave it on Auto for low-level listening though.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
From another thread here:
When ECO Mode is used, voltage for the amp stage decreases about 1/3 and amplifier stage energy loss decreases about 1/6 compared to ECO Mode being OFF.
It is recommend when using external amplification to leave ECO Mode set to ON. This will reduce power consumption to less than 70W.
When using ECO Mode ON at lower volume levels (under 45 Absolute) power consumption is about 1/2 as compared to leaving ECO Mode OFF. This is useful if using the AVR at night and you do not want to disturb others.
When using ECO Mode Auto, the circuit will control the power supply voltage by a relay. If the volume level is more than 45 Absolute the circuit will cut off. If the volume is less than 45 Absolute the circuit will switch on automatically. If listening at the threshold level (45) you will hear the relay clicking on and off frequently. Voltage for the amp stage does not change here, so power consumption would be the same as normal.


So basically, with it set to Auto, if you're above about -37dB from reference (if I recall correctly), Eco mode isn't on anyway. No reason not to leave it on Auto for low-level listening though.
That’s fine but my startup volume is -35 and average listening is -25 to-15. It’s NEVER gonna be -37 or it would be whisper quiet. So no point having it on either.
 

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Discussion Starter #57 (Edited)
Martin Logan, for example, limits vertical dispersion on their XT centers to 30 percent vs 80 percent horizontal.

Also, note the Ultra tweeter is quite far forward in the driver basket.

This is good information and good catch. What I need from svs now is to see if the woofers extend higher than the tweeter and if so would they go above the bar.

Edit: I just checked with a flashlight and wouldn’t you know it the bar does just barely hit the level where the woofer surrounds on the Polk cs400i are. It looks like the ultra center is very close in dimensions to the Polk. My guess it will line up in a similar way. I may be about to shave some height by using a 1/16” rubber mat under it instead of the 3/8” stick on feet I comes with.

another crazy idea if drivers will be obscured would be to put the center on a stand in front of the AV shelf. Now that would put it in front of my mains but would it matter with delays and levels set correctly?
 

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Discussion Starter #58
I have a question on driver construction on the ultra series. I didnt realize the drivers are essentially a coated paper. I do know that is a common speaker material and that paper has advantages and that many high end speakers still use plain paper cones. Is there a long term concern for durability with a treated paper cone vs something poly? I ask because I will likely keep this for at least 10 years. I know the surrounds are rubber so they are durable, but any concerns over the untreated back side of the drivers?
 

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another crazy idea if drivers will be obscured would be to put the center on a stand in front of the AV shelf. Now that would put it in front of my mains but would it matter with delays and levels set correctly?
Some AVS members have done this with good success for the reasons you mention,
 

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I have a question on driver construction on the ultra series. I didnt realize the drivers are essentially a coated paper. I do know that is a common speaker material and that paper has advantages and that many high end speakers still use plain paper cones. Is there a long term concern for durability with a treated paper cone vs something poly? I ask because I will likely keep this for at least 10 years. I know the surrounds are rubber so they are durable, but any concerns over the untreated back side of the drivers?
The only real issues with woofers over the decades was not with the cone but the surrounds which back in the day were sometimes foam that would rot.

You will be just fine.
 
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