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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There is already a thread going on this subject (see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=302015 ) but because its title tied to a particular model of plasma I wonder if it wasn't getting proper viewing, so I thought it would be useful to start a new thread on what people think about using DVE for plasmas generally.


As mentioned in the other thread, my impression is that the narrative on DVE is slanted towards CRTs and DLPs -- one post asked in that thread whether the word 'plasma' was even mentioned in the narrative; I don't remember ever hearing it myself.


It's pretty amazing that DVE would ignore plasmas so completely given the first word in its name. But if you can get past that failure in the narrative, are the test signals all there to do what we as plasma owners need in order to calibrate our plasmas? We can't all have Harness' fine sense of what looks right -- some of us need a crutch, at least as a starting point, before we steam our rats.


Let's start with the contrast setting...what pattern do people use in DVE to set contrast on their plasmas, and exactly how do they do it?


And beyond that, what do we think: is DVE any better than Avia or the original VE -- or is it perhaps worse -- for our plasma needs?
 

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Alan,

Like you, I'm not very good at the kind of subjective tweaking outlined in the "Steaming Rat" procedure. I already have Avia, but I too was hoping hat DVE would be better suited for digital displays. Since noone has determined this yet, I went ahead and ordered my own copy of DVE. I probably will not receive it until next week, but I'll let you know what I find out as soon as I evaluate it.


-Steve
 

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Alan...


Thanks for starting this thread. I have participated with a few comments in the other, however I feel this subject should stand on it's own.

You may want to post a statement in the other thread, that a general DVE area has been started.


I'll comment later about the subject when I use DVE a little more today.


John
 

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I just received my copy of DVE yesterday, haven't had a chance to put it through it's paces....I have a panny 42ED (5uy) and am an Avia user as well.


Initial observation -> superficial as I haven't even put the disc in yet :p


the color filters are nicer than the avia ones...they come on a single cardboard card, all three mounted one above the other...


I'll comment more after I've had a chance to play some more.


Rich
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by boykster
...the color filters are nicer than the avia ones...they come on a single cardboard card, all three mounted one above the other...
I agree, that is much nicer.
 

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VE, Avia, and DVE (somewhat better) explain how to properly calibrate your

plasma short of getting a professional to come in with sophisticated

equipment and experience. I don't recall hearing the word 'plasma'

more than once, but every video topic covered is applicable (except for

convergence and "proper" greylevel setting - equipment is needed).


wrt contrast, below is what I posted in the "DVE panny" thread, but

I don't own a panny. The only thing in that thread (IIRC) panny specific

is people posting panny settings.


Besides contrast, what else?


-----

As with the original VE, there is a Snell and Wilcox pattern that has

the "little white box within a slightly bigger white box". If you see

both white boxes, contrast is set ok wrt "not crushing whites", I believe

is the term. There is also an analagous black box within a black box

for black level - besides the other patterns with pluge, 4% and 2%

video black. Avia has "moving white bars" to help set contrast - similar

to the moving black bars.


What I did with contrast is set it below the "crush" point, set black level,

and then see how I like the PQ. Then set white level lower, then set black,

then evaluate. Etc. Then I picked the level I liked best. For CRTs,

the lower the white level, the better off you are. Not sure if that

applies to plasma life or not. Also, I don't know where white level

fits into grey scale calibration or color temp.

------


Since posting this in the other thread, I saw another post where it

was mentioned that contrast (white level) has the same effect on

plasmas as it does CRTs. i.e. the higher the contrast, the shorter the life.


larry
 

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Finally got my DVE disk and spent a couple of hours with it tonight. I am probably the only one - but I was not impressed. I bought it to calibrate my display and audio...Yea....The opening shots are nice as are the closing ones (assuming you can ever find them with the wacky navigation/menu system!)


Alot of dialogue on basic stuff like what is a dvd etc. And while some of the "how does this work" stuff is mildly interesting, imagine more so if you didn't know it, the same level of instruction disappears when the DVD finally gets around to calibrating your display. You go from more than you wanted to know:) - to not enough to actually use the patterns that are in the basic setup. There is nothing on how to use the patterns in the reference section. Again finding them, especially video, proved a challenge for me.


I could not get the brightness pattern to display correctly (XP30, PANNY 6UY), the contrast was useless and the only color I could set correctly was blue. On audio - I was already pretty close and was looking for fine tuning. Completely dropped out of the next to useless basics to the test patterns and again, the way they are setup made it very unfriendly to use.


Probably just me - as others have reviewed and found this an entertaining, informative and useful tool/dvd.


I am going to replace my AVIA(broke it a month ago) and keep this around for folks that want to know how TV's used to work, some mangled information on audio and the space shuttle scenes. Maybe the test patterns will come in handy - assuming I can ever find them again. Or maybe I have a horrible display (which according to the DVE folks I should replace if the disk doesn't make it look wonderful!) and my audio system s*cks. Maybe it's just me! I really hoped this would be better than AVIA - IMHO - not a chance. Oh and forget anything beyond basic information, so those with advanced settings - never even mentioned on this disk. Although color temp is - in terms of gray scale and a history/engineering lesson. But what you should do wth the more mundane topic of temp - go figure it out after you hear the relationship to the Kelvin scale and the origination of color temp.


I must need calibrating your system for dummies....There simply has to be a disk/book on that topic!


Therese
 

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Therese,

Is your XP30 set to "darker" mode, or whatever it's called, so

0 IRE is used for black? What do you mean that the brightness

pattern "did not display correctly"? Did you read my post above

about setting contrast? DVE does mention the Snell and Wilcox

pattern for displays that don't "bloom".


larry
 

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I sent and e-mail to Joe Kane asking specifically how to use DVE to calibrate the Contrast on a Plasma. Here is his response.... (Not very straight forward)...



Mark,


I'll make a point of including this in the Q&A. What you are looking for is in Title 7, Chapter 8.


In most cases it is difficult to properly set Brightness and Contrast in solid state display devices. They don't behave like analog CRT's. They often have clipping circuits that limit the dynamic range of the video and black seldom reaches the point of absence of light.


In adjusting Brightness you have to look for black in the video signal to drop into the ambiance that represent the lower side of the brightness capability. It doesn't go black, lower luminance detail just disappears from the picture.


The adjustment of Brightness and Contrast takes place within the confines of the digital video processing circuits inside these projectors. The objective is to set the controls so that the entire video signal fits inside the dynamic range of these circuits. The ramp test patterns have been specifically designed to assist in this adjustment.


While it is much easier to see what's going on if your player passes information above white and below black, the adjustments should be possible by visual inspection if that extra dynamic range is lost.


In the cases where the Brightness control moves the entire video signal up and down within the dynamic range of the digital processor and the contrast sets the distance between black and white, we need to start by turning the contrast down below the 50% point.


Raise and lower the Brightness so you'll see the dark parts of the ramp come and go. Set the Brightness so that video at black just disappears into the background of the image.


Now increase the Contrast control, while looking back at the dark parts of the picture for a shift in black level. Re-set the Brightness control as this shift begins to take place.


Gradually increase the Contrast, re-setting the Brightness control as needed, to a point where the white begins to clip above the 100% marker. On many sets this happens just above the 50% point on the scale. Turn the Contrast back down a bit so as to include a bit of range above white.


Another option for judging the limits of that dynamic range is to set Contrast using the 95 to 100% transition box in this gray scale. This pattern also has a reference for the lower part of the gray scale.


This is one of many places where there is no substitute for experience in setup.


Joe Kane
 

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I guess the purpose of the DVE is to overwhelm us with data (test patterns), but not tell us how to use all but the fundamental setups.


I have spent some time and found the new "modern up to date" disk (set aside the 16X9, and intro) disappointing. I was hoping to get more than the previous one and Avia.


Setting the Color level and Tint is still a LOT easier with Avia.


One interesting thing I did notice is that the new BLUE filter almost completely blocks the Green and Red, where you just about cannot see any light. A true Blue I guess, which may provide more accurate settings.

I also found that I do get the same Color/Tint settings using the Avia and the DVE using the same Blue filter for both programs.


I did check Joe Kane's web site last night and there was no new Q/A information for the DVE program.


John
 

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wpwj40e, I agree with you. Navigation is an absolute nightmare. I spent more than an hour trying to get to the test patterns and finally, I think I have an idea of how to navigate. It is not at all straightforward like Avia.


It is amazing how much time is spent on explaining, "How things work" but no explanation on how to actually use the individual test patterns like in Avia.


I was able to adjust brightness on my TH-42PA20 but it is still not as intuitive as Avia. One of the main reasons I bought DVE is because I was hoping that there would be a new test pattern for setting contras. But I must say, test pattern for contras is as useless as the one on Avia, or worse.


Even for color and tint settings, I went back to Avia. Except for the 16:9 test pattern for determining the safe action area, this disk is next to useless for me.
 

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MarkMSM> I sent and e-mail to Joe Kane asking specifically how to use

MarkMSM> DVE to calibrate the Contrast on a Plasma. Here is his

MarkMSM> response.... (Not very straight forward)...


Having just run thru this section of DVE last night, I got a kick out of the email response supposedly sent to MarkMSM by Joe Kane. Mind you I'm not questioning MarkMSM - rather, I think the person who actually responded simply typed in the actual script of that section of DVE! The words were literally verbatum as far as I can recall :)
 

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Just wondering if it is just my setup or if this is common among all panny's. I have a pwd4uy and an RP62. I have DVE and tried to set the black levels using the test pattern that has the white to black scale in the middle with 3 verticle strips on either side of it (representing different levels of black).

Problem is that I cannot see the 3 verticle strips unless I set the brightness up to max and even then, I can only see one of them faintly. I think it is the middle one of the 3.


Are you have the same problem or is it just me and my inability to set the black levels?


As for DVE, I wish they had less narrative and more text for explanations of the test patterns. That way, I can read at my own pace and not have to rewind again and again to listen for the parts that I missed or didn't understand.


Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I agree that 'help' text associated with each of the patterns (especially the advanced test patterns) are extremely important and a huge ommission in DVE...Avia is much better on that front.


When you guys look at the snell & wilcox pattern, are the color bars unstable ... is that just me and my dvd player (or scalar) or something else?


Also, the moving ball in that pattern has all sorts of awful mess inside that changes depending on whether the ball is moving or stationary...is that the way it is supposed to look or again is this just my equipment?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by edmc
MarkMSM> I sent and e-mail to Joe Kane asking specifically how to use

MarkMSM> DVE to calibrate the Contrast on a Plasma. Here is his

MarkMSM> response.... (Not very straight forward)...


Having just run thru this section of DVE last night, I got a kick out of the email response supposedly sent to MarkMSM by Joe Kane. Mind you I'm not questioning MarkMSM - rather, I think the person who actually responded simply typed in the actual script of that section of DVE! The words were literally verbatum as far as I can recall :)
I agree. The response was canned and almost word for word from the Video...
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by PooperScooper
Therese,

Is your XP30 set to "darker" mode, or whatever it's called, so

0 IRE is used for black? What do you mean that the brightness

pattern "did not display correctly"? Did you read my post above

about setting contrast? DVE does mention the Snell and Wilcox

pattern for displays that don't "bloom".


larry
It was set to darker. I could not see the third bar / the outer darker bar. I then switched to lighter - I still cannot see the outer bar. Regardless of what I do with contrast and brightness. However, in lighter on the XP30 versus darker - I now have to set the brightness even lower. Guess that makes sense if I think about it.


SO if my understanding is correct of the pluge - I should see all 3 bars, I only see the inner two. I can sorta figure out how to set these. I seem to recall this being MUCH easier on my SONY XBR40 with AVIA. I will get AVIA this weekend and try again.


I will reread your post. However I am not sure which or How to use the Snell and Wilcox pattern. It also seems rather "noisy". There are several snell & wilcox patterns, which one?


I feel REALLY stupid here - I have set numerous displays (albeit never a plasma) with AVIA and have always obtained good results between AVIA and my own version of Steaming Rat. With DVE, I appear to be incredibly dense as I am not getting it. I also find the blue filter to be extremely dark - almost impereptible to tell minute differences. I finally have red/blue set - but that just destroys the green.


Thanks

Therese
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by asinshesq
I agree that 'help' text associated with each of the patterns (especially the advanced test patterns) are extremely important and a huge ommission in DVE...Avia is much better on that front.


When you guys look at the snell & wilcox pattern, are the color bars unstable ... is that just me and my dvd player (or scalar) or something else?


Also, the moving ball in that pattern has all sorts of awful mess inside that changes depending on whether the ball is moving or stationary...is that the way it is supposed to look or again is this just my equipment?
I am havin the same issues with the Snell & WIllcox patterns. I have just retried most of the test patterns with my Panny RP91 instead of the XP30 to see if that makes a difference. It DOES NOT. I am very frustrated with this disk.


Therese
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by MarkMSM
I agree. The response was canned and almost word for word from the Video...
Having just listened to this for about the 5th time. It is word for word from three different sections strung together. It also makes no sense if you try to follow it with the DVE disk. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person - and the disk destroys any thoughts I had that I had some clue about this stuff. I feel like a total idiot. I simply cannot get anything to really work. I have now tried two different DVD players - both of which are supposed to be pretty good - so I am left with the following observations:


I am totally clueless and should hire somebody immediately (that is the primary thrust of the DVE disk anyways)


My display s*cks and should be replaced (another common thread on the DVE disk)


The DVE disk stinks (my opinion:)) and hopeully AVIA will get me to where I'm happy!


Therese
 

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Quote:
I finally have red/blue set - but that just destroys the green.
Therese,

I've posted in the past that on my Panny plasma (PW5UZ), the green seems to have about 20% undersaturation while red and blue are dead on when using the "Color Decoder Check Pattern" on Avia. Several people have the same issue. It seems that Panasonic intentionally set the color decoder this way and it is probably only correctable by adjustments in the service menu, although I've looked in there and have not discovered the correct adjustments to overcome this. Probably best left alone, as the picture still looks great and I'm sure there must be a reason Panasonic did this.


Regards,

Steve
 

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 www.displaymate.com


this is a PC based display program intended for many types of displays specifically including LCD's and plasmas


Good stuff


Mark
 
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