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Discussion Starter #1
I keep bouncing between upgrading my current 2015 Cheap Epson 5210 (not sure of US Model number) to an Epson HC3200 or HC3800 to be used with a VividStorm 110" Floor Rising ALR screen or upgrading to something like a Vava4K UST projector and using with the CLR version of the same screen. ie. the ALR version with the sawtooth structure.

Both have pro's and cons and Gotchas when it comes to positioning and furniture arrangement in my white ceiling magnolia walled non light controlled room (Just venetian blinds)

So for example a Long Throw HC3800 requires a new shelf unit to be contructed and it can't be centered on the screen and I will have to use max horizontal lens shift about 24" to the right of the center of the screen. Height wise I can get it to the optimum height without vertical lens shift.

A UST involve a more complicated 'TV Unit' than I initially planned with SLiding shelf for the UST to get it far enough away from the 110" screen without making the TV unit excessively deep.

The UST option and screen material will cost more but if its better at Ambient light rejection then I'd pay it. However, if the likes of an Epson HC3200 or HC3800 with a Long THrow ALR screen is just as good when it comes to daytime viewing (with the venetian blinds closed) and ambient light Rejection, well then its the much cheaper Long Throw Epson I would go for. An 110" Diagonal screen is 95" wide and the Epson could be positioned at about 175" back which is a 1.84x throw ratio.

So the question is whether a Long THrow 3000 lumen Epson PJ on an ALR screen is as good as or better than a UST on a CLR screen in ambient light?
 

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I keep bouncing between upgrading my current 2015 Cheap Epson 5210 (not sure of US Model number) to an Epson HC3200 or HC3800 to be used with a VividStorm 110" Floor Rising ALR screen or upgrading to something like a Vava4K UST projector and using with the CLR version of the same screen. ie. the ALR version with the sawtooth structure.

Both have pro's and cons and Gotchas when it comes to positioning and furniture arrangement in my white ceiling magnolia walled non light controlled room (Just venetian blinds)

So for example a Long Throw HC3800 requires a new shelf unit to be contructed and it can't be centered on the screen and I will have to use max horizontal lens shift about 24" to the right of the center of the screen. Height wise I can get it to the optimum height without vertical lens shift.

A UST involve a more complicated 'TV Unit' than I initially planned with SLiding shelf for the UST to get it far enough away from the 110" screen without making the TV unit excessively deep.

The UST option and screen material will cost more but if its better at Ambient light rejection then I'd pay it. However, if the likes of an Epson HC3200 or HC3800 with a Long THrow ALR screen is just as good when it comes to daytime viewing (with the venetian blinds closed) and ambient light Rejection, well then its the much cheaper Long Throw Epson I would go for. An 110" Diagonal screen is 95" wide and the Epson could be positioned at about 175" back which is a 1.84x throw ratio.

So the question is whether a Long THrow 3000 lumen Epson PJ on an ALR screen is as good as or better than a UST on a CLR screen in ambient light?
The TW7100 (HC3800) is a better option then whatever UST you may get. Not the TW7000 (HC3200), it's got poor contrast.

Angular ALRs can have different properties rejecting light on the vertical or horizontal axis. I don't know what specifications the vividstorm screen has, but some vividstorm ALR screens had a horizontal half gain of 85 degrees or around that. Which means they will do little to fight side light.

No source of light must come from the same direction as the projector with angular ALRs.


(lenticular) UST ALR screens do well at rejecting light from above (directly above), and less from other directions.


However I would not recommend any projector + screen setup in ambient light. The best thing you can do is control the light coming from the window and treat the room.

Did some tests to see how well an ALR screen will behave with ambient light, with different kinds of pictures projected. Bottom line is most content is not viewable with ambient light, only bright broadcasts that quality does not matter as much, like news or daytime TV.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/2122202-aeon-elite-screen-cinegrey-3d-9.html#post58809924

If you're set on watching with ambient light, then in that budget a large diagonal TV is possible. Just move the seating closer.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
The attached image is the ALR screen in relation to a Long Throw Projector and the Windows with compass points shown.

When you say there should be no light source in the same direction as the Projector, does that apply to windows with Venetian Blinds closed, no direct sunlight hitting the screen but some light leakage around the sides of the blinds bouncing off the window frames or off the blind blades bouncing up to the ceiling such that the room is well lit so to speak but there is no direct sunlight hitting the screen....or does it only apply to a direct source of light like a light fitting or lamp or direct sunlight through an uncovered window beside the Projector?

Keep in mind when I say no light control in this room, I mean it has 10ft white ceilings and Magnolia painted walls and daylight but not direct sunlight gets around the closed Venetian blinds so the room is bright. The light control I will always exert in this room is that no matter what time of day or night I was watching the projector the venetian blinds would always be closed and there would never be any artificial room lights turned on. The light I can't control is thae reflected light getting in around the venetians and the reflected lights off walls and ceilings bouncing back and hitting the screen.

Was checking something out on Projector central and may have found another 'Gotcha!' My current Epson and these new HC3800 Epsons have no built in offset like my old Panny AE900 had where it was aligned with the bottom or top of the screen. The epsons default offset is alignment with the center of the screen. So when I said I would only have to use horizontal lens shift because that Window beside the PJ doesn't allow it to be setup dead center on the horizontal axis, well I was wrong. I'd have to use Vertical lens shift too to get the PJ aligned with the top of the screen and as we all know, often with these projectors you can't have maximum vertical and horizontal lens shift at the same time. So I might end up having to get the next Epson up from the HC3800 (EH-TW7400 in UK/Europe) that has a larger lens shift range meaning I wouldn't be maxing out either and thus more likely to achieve what I need in both axis. This is all assuming of course that I have understood how ALR for long throws work in that the Projector needs to be aligned with the top of the screen in order to achieve the 30º reflection angle to the viewers seated eye height in order to maximise AMbient light rejection and brightness and lack of hotspotting from the main viewing seat.

The problem with that is that price wise we are back approaching the price of the Vava4K UST and so price has to be removed as a Pro for the Long Throw ALR option. I guess thats only important if the UST PJ's offered much better AMbient Light rejection which you say they don't?? ie. If price ends up being the same, Ambient Light rejection performance is the same, then the deciding factor would be image quality at night in a dark room which I guess is where the Long Throws would win?

I guess my confusion stems from all the videos on youtube raving about Ambient Light rejection with Sawtooth ALR screens and UST Projectors with apparent video evidence backing up their claims while on the other hand I find little content praising Long Throw ALR screens. Thats what was swinging me towards UST PJ's and CLR Sawtooth screens.
 

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The attached image is the ALR screen in relation to a Long Throw Projector and the Windows with compass points shown.

When you say there should be no light source in the same direction as the Projector, does that apply to windows with Venetian Blinds closed, no direct sunlight hitting the screen but some light leakage around the sides of the blinds bouncing off the window frames or off the blind blades bouncing up to the ceiling such that the room is well lit so to speak but there is no direct sunlight hitting the screen....or does it only apply to a direct source of light like a light fitting or lamp or direct sunlight through an uncovered window beside the Projector?

Keep in mind when I say no light control in this room, I mean it has 10ft white ceilings and Magnolia painted walls and daylight but not direct sunlight gets around the closed Venetian blinds so the room is bright. The light control I will always exert in this room is that no matter what time of day or night I was watching the projector the venetian blinds would always be closed and there would never be any artificial room lights turned on. The light I can't control is thae reflected light getting in around the venetians and the reflected lights off walls and ceilings bouncing back and hitting the screen.

Was checking something out on Projector central and may have found another 'Gotcha!' My current Epson and these new HC3800 Epsons have no built in offset like my old Panny AE900 had where it was aligned with the bottom or top of the screen. The epsons default offset is alignment with the center of the screen. So when I said I would only have to use horizontal lens shift because that Window beside the PJ doesn't allow it to be setup dead center on the horizontal axis, well I was wrong. I'd have to use Vertical lens shift too to get the PJ aligned with the top of the screen and as we all know, often with these projectors you can't have maximum vertical and horizontal lens shift at the same time. So I might end up having to get the next Epson up from the HC3800 (EH-TW7400 in UK/Europe) that has a larger lens shift range meaning I wouldn't be maxing out either and thus more likely to achieve what I need in both axis. This is all assuming of course that I have understood how ALR for long throws work in that the Projector needs to be aligned with the top of the screen in order to achieve the 30º reflection angle to the viewers seated eye height in order to maximise AMbient light rejection and brightness and lack of hotspotting from the main viewing seat.

The problem with that is that price wise we are back approaching the price of the Vava4K UST and so price has to be removed as a Pro for the Long Throw ALR option. I guess thats only important if the UST PJ's offered much better AMbient Light rejection which you say they don't?? ie. If price ends up being the same, Ambient Light rejection performance is the same, then the deciding factor would be image quality at night in a dark room which I guess is where the Long Throws would win?

I guess my confusion stems from all the videos on youtube raving about Ambient Light rejection with Sawtooth ALR screens and UST Projectors with apparent video evidence backing up their claims while on the other hand I find little content praising Long Throw ALR screens. Thats what was swinging me towards UST PJ's and CLR Sawtooth screens.
I've said this before, your writing style is difficult to follow, it's like it's written by someone on amphetamines and coke.
Almost everything in it is wrong.

The first line in my post notes the HC3800 is the TW7100, not 7400. The TW7400 is the HC4010 in North America.

The TW7400 has a 10GB HDMI. Difference to an 18GB HDMI:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/3152120-building-home-theater-benq-ht3550-projector-something-else.html#post59777804

To calculate lens shift:
http://www.reviewtranslations.com/projection_calculator_en.html

Angular ALRs have a mirror like surface. If light comes from the left, some if it is reflected to the right. But if it comes from the same direction as the projector, it will be directed back towards the viewer, washing out the image.

I don't know where you got the 30 degrees. In a setup with that throw ratio I think the angle would be smaller. But regardless, in my experience with ALR screens the eye level should not be at the angle where the beam will reflect back, it should be higher, closer to the middle of the screen even.

Because of the mirror like attribute the projector also must be on the screen's central axis (perpendicular to the screen). If the projector is sending it's beam from the upper right, the reflection would go towards lower left.

I've already explained the effectiveness of angular ALRs and UST ALRs in the previous post.

I've also explained and clearly demonstrated the effect of different types of ambient light with different types of projected images.


But the last statement is had me going. What is even Sawtooth ALR CLR screen? The only company that uses that term, not as a name brand, but as a type of screen technology is XY screens. Those types of screens are commonly known as lenticular. Have you even watched this "video evidence"?
And there's little content praising regular ALR screens? That's a ridiculous statement and I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.
Anyway I've said all there is to be said about this topic.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
LOL. WOW!!

I write like a Amp/Coke Fiend!!??

Apologies oh anointed one that I don't understand all this straight away, that I misinterpreted some things you said or things I read elsewhere and needed further clarification. I'm sorry that I used some incorrect terms or TLA's for some things.

Genuine thanks for taking the time to try to educate this here dumdum. I see from your other replies to people that most of them seem to be dumdums too that frustrate you when you try to educate them and even when they thank you for your help, you seem to find fault somewhere in those replies too. It must be so frustrating for you trying to educate all of us only for us not to understand everything you said 100% straight away and when we rub salt into your wounds when we say something wrong in our thanking replies too.

Given you've lost patience with me as I am apparently yet another pleb who didn't understand everything 100% straight away and now you are done with me, well hopefully someone else who isn't quite so aspergian can come into this thread and fill in the gaps in my knowledge and correct my misinterpretations.
 

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LOL. WOW!!

I write like a Amp/Coke Fiend!!??

Apologies oh anointed one that I don't understand all this straight away, that I misinterpreted some things you said or things I read elsewhere and needed further clarification. I'm sorry that I used some incorrect terms or TLA's for some things.

Genuine thanks for taking the time to try to educate this here dumdum. I see from your other replies to people that most of them seem to be dumdums too that frustrate you when you try to educate them and even when they thank you for your help, you seem to find fault somewhere in those replies too. It must be so frustrating for you trying to educate all of us only for us not to understand everything you said 100% straight away and when we rub salt into your wounds when we say something wrong in our thanking replies too.

Given you've lost patience with me as I am apparently yet another pleb who didn't understand everything 100% straight away and now you are done with me, well hopefully someone else who isn't quite so aspergian can come into this thread and fill in the gaps in my knowledge and correct my misinterpretations.
If you've noticed here and the other forum nobody replied because of your writing style.

Sorry if you were offended, I was trying to help. But if this bothers you....

I know when I see some of these posts, the way they are written, that I should not answer since the users can be difficult and sometime don't want to listen.

Some users were rough with me as well, but they were correct since I was asking stupid questions and wasting their time. Not everybody in nice, here or in life, but this is another topic.
 

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Discussion Starter #8

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Discussion Starter #9
If you've noticed here and the other forum nobody replied because of your writing style.

Sorry if you were offended, I was trying to help. But if this bothers you....

I know when I see some of these posts, the way they are written, that I should not answer since the users can be difficult and sometime don't want to listen.

Some users were rough with me as well, but they were correct since I was asking stupid questions and wasting their time. Not everybody in nice, here or in life, but this is another topic.
Ah, so you were the guy on the UK forum who similarly commented on my writing style and told me to not write long posts. I refer you to my answer there ...
My rationale for long posts in technical forums has been that surely its better to include enough context so that the reader understands exactly what I'm asking and why I'm asking it and can respond appropriately, rather than a back and forth of Q&A until they have enough information to answer correctly. The back and forth Q&A as I fill in the detail for them as required will take a day or two, reading a longer post with all the required context already within it will take an extra minute or two.

However, I guess your point is well taken. Most people nowadays have the attention span of a Goldfish and if I lose them before they even read my Question because its length puts them off, well then the question about how long it takes to get the correct answer from them is moot.
Seems I haven't learned my lesson though doesn't it. I keep going over that Twitter Character limit and losing everyone with short attention spans.

I wasn't trying to be difficult. I am listening. I obviously simply misunderstood some of what you said or some of what I read/saw. EG. https://youtu.be/-9dJmJh40j0?t=75

I'm sorry that I'm asking stupid questions and wasting your time. Like I said, dealing with the rest of us idiots who don't understand you 100% straight away must be so frustrating for you.
 

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Ah, so you were the guy on the UK forum who similarly commented on my writing style and told me to not write long posts. I refer you to my answer there ...


Seems I haven't learned my lesson though doesn't it. I keep going over that Twitter Character limit and losing everyone with short attention spans.

I wasn't trying to be difficult. I am listening. I obviously simply misunderstood some of what you said or some of what I read/saw. EG. https://youtu.be/-9dJmJh40j0?t=75

I'm sorry that I'm asking stupid questions and wasting your time. Like I said, dealing with the rest of us idiots who don't understand you 100% straight away must be so frustrating for you.
I'm going to ignore everything except the issue at hand.

I've had a Cinegrey 3D ALR screen from Elite screens for a few years, the same Elite as the ones in the video you posted.

I've tested this very thing that they are trying to claim, with where the viewers eyes should be. And it's not true. That's a general presentation of how angular ALR screens work IMO.

I would not take Elite's claims literally. On their page for the 3D they claim it works with short throw projector. It doesn't because I've tried it. When I asked them about it they said someone did a test and it was ok:
https://elitescreens.com/front/front/productdetail/product/285

I'm just telling you my experience with the material.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Although I have exhausted the patience and attention span of Noob00224 and will likely get no further education from him, his link to the PJ lens shift calculator did confirm one of my assumptions, that because the window on the opposite wall from the screen forces me to use maximum horizontal lens shift, it precludes me from using little if any vertical lens shift, so a long throw PJ with no inbuilt offset like the Epsons would need to be centered on the vertical axis of the screen and mounted just over my seated position head to get it co-located with my seated eye position like Noob00224 seems to recommend (Assuming I haven't misunderstood him again)

Other than fan noise right beside my ears, this mounting position wouldn't actually be much of a problem if Noob00224 is correct and that the ideal Epson PJ location relative to an ALR screen is actually with it mounted as close to my head as possible and not in line with the top of the screen which is how I thought it was supposed to be based on that Elite Screens ALR Youtube video. Its that video that seemingly recommending top of screen/ceiling type mounting and 30º reflection angle for maximum benefit from ALR screens that got me tied in knots trying to reconcile Epsons default Lens offsets and min/max Vert/Horiz Lens shifts to try and achieve that Elite Screens recommended positioning.

Given all that, I am assuming that because the PJ is lens shifted to the right of that side window, the angle of reflection off the ALR screen from that horizontal lens shift will actually be ideal for the 2 seater couch in front of that side window??

I keep reading in lots of PJ reviews that a given projectors lack of contrast or black level shouldn't necessarily be a tick against it if its in a white-walled/ceiling untreated room because an untreated room that isn't a bat-cave is going to negate the benefits of higher contrast/lower black level Projectors anyway. Hence why in other threads I've said that in my untreated non light controlled room, I wasn't going to chase contrast/black levels and spend a fortune chasing diminishing returns. If contrast/blacks of a future Long Throw Epson or UST Projector with an ALR/CLR screen were simply equivalent to the mediocre levels of my current Epson 5210, then that was good enough for me. What I really wanted from any potential future Long Throw/UST and ALR/CLR PJ/Screen purchase was a brighter, punchier higher contrast image during the day with the venetians blinds closed (ie. no direct sun or artificial light but the room is still reasonably bright due to light leakage around the venetian blinds)

I can't seem to get an answer in this thread or others based on this context (the reason the posts are long trying to give that context) of me not chasing batcave contrast or blacks nor chasing 4K HDR 12bit 4.4.4 or whatever. On Youtube most people rave about the image of UST's on CLR screens in ambient light and the images shown seem to back that up whereas on forums I only get what seems to be Contrast/Black Level 'Purists' replying, effectively telling me to paint my room black, buy an uber expensive JVC DILA or buy an 80" OLED the price of a car.

I just need to know, which Long Throw/UST ALR/CLR combo gives me contrast/blacks equivalent to the mediocre levels of my old Epson 5210 but which give me a much better punchier image during daylight hours in my white/magnolia room with the lights off and my Venetian Blinds closed.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'm going to ignore everything except the issue at hand.

I've had a Cinegrey 3D ALR screen from Elite screens for a few years, the same Elite as the ones in the video you posted.

I've tested this very thing that they are trying to claim, with where the viewers eyes should be. And it's not true. That's a general presentation of how angular ALR screens work IMO.

I would not take Elite's claims literally. On their page for the 3D they claim it works with short throw projector. It doesn't because I've tried it. When I asked them about it they said someone did a test and it was ok:
https://elitescreens.com/front/front/productdetail/product/285

I'm just telling you my experience with the material.
I believe you about Elites ALR, I've read some of the threads about the gain figures being much lower than they claim. I simply didn't understand that their claims about a 30º ideal projection angle were wrong too. Thats what confused me and tied me in knots.
 

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Although I have exhausted the patience and attention span of Noob00224 and will likely get no further education from him, his link to the PJ lens shift calculator did confirm one of my assumptions, that because the window on the opposite wall from the screen forces me to use maximum horizontal lens shift, it precludes me from using little if any vertical lens shift, so a long throw PJ with no inbuilt offset like the Epsons would need to be centered on the vertical axis of the screen and mounted just over my seated position head to get it co-located with my seated eye position like Noob00224 seems to recommend (Assuming I haven't misunderstood him again)

Other than fan noise right beside my ears, this mounting position wouldn't actually be much of a problem if Noob00224 is correct and that the ideal Epson PJ location relative to an ALR screen is actually with it mounted as close to my head as possible and not in line with the top of the screen which is how I thought it was supposed to be based on that Elite Screens ALR Youtube video. Its that video that seemingly recommending top of screen/ceiling type mounting and 30º reflection angle for maximum benefit from ALR screens that got me tied in knots trying to reconcile Epsons default Lens offsets and min/max Vert/Horiz Lens shifts to try and achieve that Elite Screens recommended positioning.

Given all that, I am assuming that because the PJ is lens shifted to the right of that side window, the angle of reflection off the ALR screen from that horizontal lens shift will actually be ideal for the 2 seater couch in front of that side window??

I keep reading in lots of PJ reviews that a given projectors lack of contrast or black level shouldn't necessarily be a tick against it if its in a white-walled/ceiling untreated room because an untreated room that isn't a bat-cave is going to negate the benefits of higher contrast/lower black level Projectors anyway. Hence why in other threads I've said that in my untreated non light controlled room, I wasn't going to chase contrast/black levels and spend a fortune chasing diminishing returns. If contrast/blacks of a future Long Throw Epson or UST Projector with an ALR/CLR screen were simply equivalent to the mediocre levels of my current Epson 5210, then that was good enough for me. What I really wanted from any potential future Long Throw/UST and ALR/CLR PJ/Screen purchase was a brighter, punchier higher contrast image during the day with the venetians blinds closed (ie. no direct sun or artificial light but the room is still reasonably bright due to light leakage around the venetian blinds)

I can't seem to get an answer in this thread or others based on this context (the reason the posts are long trying to give that context) of me not chasing batcave contrast or blacks nor chasing 4K HDR 12bit 4.4.4 or whatever. On Youtube most people rave about the image of UST's on CLR screens in ambient light and the images shown seem to back that up whereas on forums I only get what seems to be Contrast/Black Level 'Purists' replying, effectively telling me to paint my room black, buy an uber expensive JVC DILA or buy an 80" OLED the price of a car.

I just need to know, which Long Throw/UST ALR/CLR combo gives me contrast/blacks equivalent to the mediocre levels of my old Epson 5210 but which give me a much better punchier image during daylight hours in my white/magnolia room with the lights off and my Venetian Blinds closed.
If the projector is placed at the same height as the middle of the screen (vertical), or there abouts, it should be fine. But what I was referring to is placing the projector around or above the top edge of the screen, and setting up so the viewers position is above where the beam would reflect back, if you did the angle calculations and all. So the height of the view would be fine even at the same height as the middle of the screen, at least on a Cinegrey 3D. The Vividstorm might have different characteristics. Unfortunately a lot of ALR screens don't publish the vertical half gain.

Don't know what were to happen if the projector would not be on the central axis of the screen and above.

Projectors with good black level still bring an advantage in low brightness scenes since there is less light to bounce around the room and wash out the image. During the night of course, and as long as there are no street lights outside that would also leak through the blinds.

The 5210 from what I can tell has poor contrast, but it has high brightness. I think it has ~1500-2000 lumens in regular modes with a new lamp.

3LCD projectors color lumens is equal to white lumens, whereas with DLP color lumens are often lower. So when you see lumens measured that's the white lumens.


Considering the amount of money on the budget, isn't a TV better? I don't know the specifics, but I think prices in TVs have dropped a lot. It does not have to be OLED. Regular LED will have better black level not to mention brightness than the kind of projector/screen setup discussed here. Some TVs are capable of 1000 nits or more, projectors much less. With a UST you might get 100-200 nits in your configuration.

There is something like Optoma laser, HZ39HDR, but it's throw ratio is up to 1.59x, so with an ALR there will be a hotspot.
ZH406 has a longer throw, but very little lens shift.
Black level is typical DLP, which is not good. And they're 1080p, can accept 4K. They have ~1700 lumens.

The HC3800 (TW7100) can have ~2200 lumens and HC4010 (TW7400) ~1400.

The 5210 is at least as bright as the two Optomas, with a new lamp that is.

The Benq HT5550 (W5700) has vertical and horizontal lens shift and it's default position is at the bottom or top of the screen, I think:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-HT5550-projection-calculator-pro.htm

But it has ~800 lumens, which is ~40% of the 5210 with a new lamp.

Not that many projectors have lens shift to begin with.

UST ALR screens have somewhat low gain, with many ~0.6 gain. The VAVA UST measurements are all over the place, between 1000 and 2000 lumens. So with an UST ALR it would be 1200 lumens at the most. That's 113 nits on a 1.0 gain screen. Not sure what gain the Vividstorm has. If the gain is 0.8 like some of the other screens the nits will be 90.

LE:
If it's this one the claimed gain is 0.8:
http://www.vividstormscreens.com/display/298259.html

Have you seen the Vividstorm thread?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/3065466-vivid-storm-tab-tension-grandview.html

I think the bast option for your setup is the largest TV you can get. Unless something like the ZH406 is placed on the central axis of an ALR screen, but it might not be bright enough still.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thank you for being patient with me.

I'll need to re-read all your data and explanations to get it straight in my head.

There is already a 55" 4K LG LCD LED in the room, but I was just looking for projection options that widened the viewing hours or ambient light level thresholds where a Projector could be used for the bigscreen experience for Sports and some TV shows. For example, its a dull damp day here which (outside of the last few blue sky months during lockdown) is par for the course in both our neck of the woods. Even the current Epson 5210 (uncalibrated 2400 lumens) on the magnolia wall could have displayed a watchable image for Sky Sports with the bulb set to high and the Venetians closed today. A 3000 Lumens HC3200/TW7100 would do better and on an ALR screen better again.

Maybe what I need to reconcile myself to is that as you say you cant trust PJ manufacturers nor Screen Manufacturers numbers, that camera auto exposure etc is making ALR screens look higher performing in Youtube Videos than they do in real life...and that in my room with its SW aspect, its just going not possible to have a non washed out image during bright blue sky sunlit days even with the Venetians closed till the evenings and that PJ viewing any earlier than that in the day is going to need a cloudy day.

So if my broad strokes understanding is correct, its that both ALR/CLR screens are not miracle workers but they are not worthless either and one just has to figure out for ones self if the price performance ratio makes sense. That if one can position the projector in the sweetspot relative to the screen to minimise things like hotspotting, sparklies or brightness drop off, that they can provide some benefit. Its just a question about whether the extra cost of the ALR screen is worth it? Furthermore, is my understanding correct that CLR Screens for UST Projectors aren't noticeably better for Ambient Light Rejection than Long Throw ALR screens? If thats the case then it would seem that Long Throw PJ and ALR Screen is quite a bit cheaper for both PJ and Screen, has better native contrast and colour gamut, better support for 4K HDR formats. Literally the only benefit of a UST I lose is not casting a shadow on the screen when someone crosses the room.

I'm dead set on the VividStorm Floor Rising screen and the price difference is +€90 for the Long Throw ALR over white and +€470 for the UST CLR (if I had decided on a UST PJ) So given the bulk of the screen cost is in the Motorised Floor Rising and Tab Tensioned aspects of the screen and Long Throw ALR over white material only adds €90, then unless there are major Gotchas's that I am misunderstanding then its the ALR I should go for.

Given the drawing of my room it looks like the twin seater couch on the projector wall and the last seat in the 3 seater in the bay window closest to the projector would be within the Peak to half gain 75º viewing cone and only the other 2 cushions of the 3 seater would be sub half gain.

I've seen that thread. I presume you are pointing it out because of the guy MorphX who's first screen had roller marks. ie. You are concerned about QC issues with VividStorm?? Seems to me that Vividstorm made good on their promise to him of replacing the screen with a good one. While he does talk about a barely noticeable curl at the extreme bottom corner of his replacement screen, I note that his screen was a non tab tensioned pulldown (manual or electric?). At any rate, its why I would be vary wary about ordering a Vividstorm Screen from China in case it needed to be returned. Thats why I was pleased when someone on the UK forum said they heard the Vividstorm would have a UK warehouse and distributor soon. Vividstorm confirmed this to me in an email and said they expect the stock to arrive in their new UK warehouse by mid August. Thats when I will order a screen from them, when it means I only have to return it from Ireland to the UK instead of Ireland to China in the event there is anything wrong with the screen and it needs to be returned.
 

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Thank you for being patient with me.

I'll need to re-read all your data and explanations to get it straight in my head.

There is already a 55" 4K LG LCD LED in the room, but I was just looking for projection options that widened the viewing hours or ambient light level thresholds where a Projector could be used for the bigscreen experience for Sports and some TV shows. For example, its a dull damp day here which (outside of the last few blue sky months during lockdown) is par for the course in both our neck of the woods. Even the current Epson 5210 (uncalibrated 2400 lumens) on the magnolia wall could have displayed a watchable image for Sky Sports with the bulb set to high and the Venetians closed today. A 3000 Lumens HC3200/TW7100 would do better and on an ALR screen better again.

Maybe what I need to reconcile myself to is that as you say you cant trust PJ manufacturers nor Screen Manufacturers numbers, that camera auto exposure etc is making ALR screens look higher performing in Youtube Videos than they do in real life...and that in my room with its SW aspect, its just going not possible to have a non washed out image during bright blue sky sunlit days even with the Venetians closed till the evenings and that PJ viewing any earlier than that in the day is going to need a cloudy day.

So if my broad strokes understanding is correct, its that both ALR/CLR screens are not miracle workers but they are not worthless either and one just has to figure out for ones self if the price performance ratio makes sense. That if one can position the projector in the sweetspot relative to the screen to minimise things like hotspotting, sparklies or brightness drop off, that they can provide some benefit. Its just a question about whether the extra cost of the ALR screen is worth it? Furthermore, is my understanding correct that CLR Screens for UST Projectors aren't noticeably better for Ambient Light Rejection than Long Throw ALR screens? If thats the case then it would seem that Long Throw PJ and ALR Screen is quite a bit cheaper for both PJ and Screen, has better native contrast and colour gamut, better support for 4K HDR formats. Literally the only benefit of a UST I lose is not casting a shadow on the screen when someone crosses the room.

I'm dead set on the VividStorm Floor Rising screen and the price difference is +€90 for the Long Throw ALR over white and +€470 for the UST CLR (if I had decided on a UST PJ) So given the bulk of the screen cost is in the Motorised Floor Rising and Tab Tensioned aspects of the screen and Long Throw ALR over white material only adds €90, then unless there are major Gotchas's that I am misunderstanding then its the ALR I should go for.

Given the drawing of my room it looks like the twin seater couch on the projector wall and the last seat in the 3 seater in the bay window closest to the projector would be within the Peak to half gain 75º viewing cone and only the other 2 cushions of the 3 seater would be sub half gain.

I've seen that thread. I presume you are pointing it out because of the guy MorphX who's first screen had roller marks. ie. You are concerned about QC issues with VividStorm?? Seems to me that Vividstorm made good on their promise to him of replacing the screen with a good one. While he does talk about a barely noticeable curl at the extreme bottom corner of his replacement screen, I note that his screen was a non tab tensioned pulldown (manual or electric?). At any rate, its why I would be vary wary about ordering a Vividstorm Screen from China in case it needed to be returned. Thats why I was pleased when someone on the UK forum said they heard the Vividstorm would have a UK warehouse and distributor soon. Vividstorm confirmed this to me in an email and said they expect the stock to arrive in their new UK warehouse by mid August. Thats when I will order a screen from them, when it means I only have to return it from Ireland to the UK instead of Ireland to China in the event there is anything wrong with the screen and it needs to be returned.
I've mentioned some of these things previously.

When a projector like the HC3800 (TW7100)/HC3200 (TW7000) claims 3000 lumens, it's not actually 3000. In reviews and when users measure them, the actual lumens of these two models is ~1500-2200 lumens depending on preset and lamp mode. Almost all projectors have a preset that is brightest, but that almost has a green tint. The HC3800/3200 can almost reach 3000 lumens in this preset in High lamp. But it's unwatchable.

The 5210 claims 2800 lumens, and comparing to what other Epsons have been measured I guesstimate that it's 1500-2000 lumens in regular presets.

The TW7400 can do ~1400 lumens.
Optoma ZH406 ~1700-2000 lumens. But because it's DLP the color lumens are probably ~1300-1500 lumens.
VAVA 4K UST it's unclear between 1000 to 2000 lumens. Not sure about color lumens.

UST ALR's technology are for when there are light just above the screen. That's it. Angular ALRs can help with reflections from any direction, but it depends on each screen's specification.

The Vividstorm angular ALR claims a viewing cone of 150 degrees and 75 degrees horizontal half gain. 75 degrees half gain means that at that angle the screen is half as bright as when viewed from central axis of the screen.
What this means is that this screen does not fight side on the horizontal axis. Some screens have have a half gain of 20 degrees, which means it fights ambient light well, but the viewing cone is much more restricted.
The vertical viewing cone/half gain is not mentioned.

Vividstorm's angular ALR claims 0.8 gain, so when calculating screen brightness reduce it by 20%.

A lot of UST ALRs are 0.6 gain, so with the VAVA UST being at most 2000 lumens, means the screen is not that bright.


I don't know if any projector setup will be bright enough for you since your current unit can probably do ~2000 lumens with a new lamp. If it's projected on a white wall it would be 1.0 gain, so no change.

Lamps loose ~25% brightness after ~500h. The rated hours is for when the lamp is 50% of it's original brightness.


Higher lumen projectors like the Epson HC1440 can do ~4000 lumens with a normal looking image. But it's 1080p, does not have any lens shift, limited throw ratio, and kind of basic.


This is why I mentioned TVs. An 85" can fit in your budget, but from 4.5m distance it's kind of small. Maybe if the room is rearranged with the seating closer it can work.

Another option is to take a white screen and paint it with a custom paint mix so there are no issues with an ALR screen. It's not going to be the same as an ALR screen, but will still have some ALR properties.
 

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I did already say that I understood you when you say not to trust manufactures numbers and that the quoted figures I mentioned were un-calibrated. but as long as one uses the uncalibrated numbers for all projectors you are comparing its still a reasonably fair comparison. The 5210 claims 2200 lumens not 2800 lumens. So although 2200 lumens is not true in the real world after calibration just like the HC3800s' 3000 lumens is not true in the real world after calibration, in all likelihood what ever their true ANSI lumens actually are the HC3800 is still likely to be nearly 30% brighter than my old 5210. Add to that my bulbs 2500hr age and the loss of brightness as a result and its reasonable to assume that a new HC3800 will be a light-cannon compared to my 2500hr 5210 even after I factor in a 20% light reduction due to the 0.8 gain given the HC3800 would be projecting on an ALR screen while the 5210 was projecting on a magnolia wall.

The point being that given I have reconciled myself based on your advice to the fact that on a blue sky sunny day even with the venetians closed, its going to be too bright for most content. However on a cloudy day like today where I could have happily watched Football on the magnolia wall with my 2500hr 5210, it stands to reason that on an ALR screen, with the projector ideally mounted and the viewer sat near the zone of peak gain of 0.8 and with the HC3800 projecting whatever the calibrated high bulb output is of this supposed 3000 lumen projector. 2200 you say.. Well that sounds good enough for me.

I thought I made it obvious that you had successfully persuaded me against UST PJ's and CLR screens a good while back. They are off the agenda now. What you haven't successfully convinced me of is buying a 70-80" TV. Like I keep on saying, I'm not a Contrast, Black level nor 4K HDR 12 bit 4.4.4. chasing hound. The fact that I've happily projected on a magnolia wall for years should tell you that I am not a colour gamut/accuracy 'o'phile. LOL. I'm simply chasing a projection setup thats just a little bit better in daylight during a greater spread of hours with the venetians closed compared to my current 2500hr Epson 5210 projecting an 120" screen on a magnolia painted wall. If the sun is blazing in I'll use the 55" 4K LG LED TV in that room.
 
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