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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,


I'm kind of stuck for choice here. I am in the market for a new sub to compliment my Kef IQ70s musically as well as for movies.

I am a critical listener and tend to want the best I can afford.


As some background I enjoy music and movies about 50/50 so need something that does both well. My room is large, about 15 (5m) x 30 (10m) with a stud height of 8 (2.4m)


My homework has pointed me in the direction of Velodyne, in particular the SPL range (also known as Optima in the US)

I have had a demo of the SPL-1000u and was very impressed. My question is whether I should go for the 10" or the 12"


I am concerned that the 10" may be too small while the 12' may come across a little slow or muddy. I am fully aware that many factors influence the final sound quality so I'd rather hear what others have experienced.


Has anyone heard the difference or can provide some clarity as to how the two differ with regards to playback of music vs HT?

Any suggestions as to which may be the better?


Cheers

Brend
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterx  /t/1473105/velodyne-spl-1000-ultra-vs-spl-1200-ultra#post_23325369


As some background I enjoy music and movies about 50/50 so need something that does both well. My room is large, about 15 (5m) x 30 (10m) with a stud height of 8 (2.4m)


My homework has pointed me in the direction of Velodyne, in particular the SPL range (also known as Optima in the US) I have had a demo of the SPL-1000u and was very impressed. My question is whether I should go for the 10" or the 12"

With a 3600 ft^3 room I'm not sure even the 12" will suffice. That's an awful lot of space to fill with a single 12" acoustic suspension subwoofer.


It seems you're not in the US, so it's difficult to make alternate suggestions. Where are you located and what other manufacturers sell products in your area? What is your budget? That's a critical piece of information as well.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterx  /t/1473105/velodyne-spl-1000-ultra-vs-spl-1200-ultra#post_23325369


Hi all,


I'm kind of stuck for choice here. I am in the market for a new sub to compliment my Kef IQ70s musically as well as for movies.

I am a critical listener and tend to want the best I can afford.


As some background I enjoy music and movies about 50/50 so need something that does both well. My room is large, about 15 (5m) x 30 (10m) with a stud height of 8 (2.4m)


My homework has pointed me in the direction of Velodyne, in particular the SPL range (also known as Optima in the US)

I have had a demo of the SPL-1000u and was very impressed. My question is whether I should go for the 10" or the 12"


I am concerned that the 10" may be too small while the 12' may come across a little slow or muddy. I am fully aware that many factors influence the final sound quality so I'd rather hear what others have experienced.


Has anyone heard the difference or can provide some clarity as to how the two differ with regards to playback of music vs HT?

Any suggestions as to which may be the better?


Cheers

Brend

The notion that a 12 or 15 or even 18 inch driver would be muddy or slow is a myth. I would probably buy the largest (sealed) sub from a highly regarded company that your budget will allow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi Jim


You are right, it is a large area to fill, but surprisingly it doesn't take a great deal to get some decent bass to come through, I am not overly interested to have nightclub sound/ volume, just enough to make the music and movies sound good by providing the lower end a bit of a boost.


I am in New Zealand and I would assume that we are limited as to what we get here, but I do know that all major brands are sold here. My budget is hard to say as I am a "buy what is necessary type" but at this stage I would say that the Velodyne spl-1200u is my limit. It is $2999 here which in US dollars is around $2500us. I know that the same sub in the US goes for around $1000us, as to why the difference I don't understand.


Anyhow hope that gives some idea as to what I'm after and what I can spend etc. Appreciate your advice.


At Spyboy - I do agree with your comments, and this is why I am looking at the Velodynes. They are sealed boxes, high output amps (1200w) and are renown for making good subs.


I guess my main issue is that the system I have (Marantz SR 6004 and Kef IQ70s) is that there is a mid-lower range issue. It sounds beautiful on it's own, (but ligtht on bass) however when you stick a 12" sub in the mix you feel there is a bass gap between the sub and floorstanders. This was evident when I tested a friends 12" yesterday. It sounded great for bass heavy tracks, and even acoustic music and classical, but pop or even rock where punchier slightly higher freq bass is coming through the system fell over. This is why I was starting to think of getting a 10". I have tuned my system the best I can get it, even had some professional help, it's a characteristic of what I have and not the settings.



All that said, I take your comments on board and think it is something I'm leaning to doing.



Cheers

B
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterx  /t/1473105/velodyne-spl-1000-ultra-vs-spl-1200-ultra#post_23331421


I guess my main issue is that the system I have (Marantz SR 6004 and Kef IQ70s) is that there is a mid-lower range issue. It sounds beautiful on it's own, (but ligtht on bass) however when you stick a 12" sub in the mix you feel there is a bass gap between the sub and floorstanders. This was evident when I tested a friends 12" yesterday. It sounded great for bass heavy tracks, and even acoustic music and classical, but pop or even rock where punchier slightly higher freq bass is coming through the system fell over. This is why I was starting to think of getting a 10". I have tuned my system the best I can get it, even had some professional help, it's a characteristic of what I have and not the settings.

The 'gap' you're describing strikes me more as a configuration issue, or perhaps an under-sized subwoofer. Those KEF's easily extend down to 60Hz, meaning virtually any subwoofer made should be able to integrate with them.


I'd definitely say disregard any acoustic suspension sub with a single 10" driver. If you don't want much in the way of output a single 12" might suffice, but anything smaller will be rendered mute by a room that size.


Can you get Rythmik products where you are? They make some very nice subs that aren't a lot of money. They have 12" and 15" versions that may work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Can you get Rythmik products where you are? They make some very nice subs that aren't a lot of money. They have 12" and 15" versions that may work.[/quote]


Unfortunately we do not have Rythmik products available.


The bass gap I mentioned i believe is due to the lower end not being reporduced sufficiently by the Kefs to match the rest of the frequencies. I found that changing the speakers on the amp to small the sub matches perfectly and the sound is a lot more even. Leaving them on large the lower mid range seems to drop off and where you expect to hear bass punch there is very little. I have been told by many audio specialits that the Marantz amps are known to be bass soft,so this maybe something to look into.


I am sold on going for a 12' and velodyne is still in my sights as my prefered option. I haven't found one that sounds as good and has the verstility that they offer. They are rather pricey thats the main issue.


B
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterx  /t/1473105/velodyne-spl-1000-ultra-vs-spl-1200-ultra#post_23325369



I am concerned that the 10" may be too small while the 12' may come across a little slow or muddy.

The speed or responsiveness of a driver is dictated by newtons first law, the motor structure of the driver must overcome the mass and inertia of the cone assembly. A properly constructed driver with a sufficiently sized motor structure should not have any problem with accuracy. One thing we have never been accused of is skimping on the motor, The SPL-Ultra 12 inch subwoofer features 21.6lb magnet and a dual layer voice coil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson  /t/1473105/velodyne-spl-1000-ultra-vs-spl-1200-ultra#post_23328166


With a 3600 ft^3 room I'm not sure even the 12" will suffice. That's an awful lot of space to fill with a single 12" acoustic suspension subwoofer.

FYI - a single Optimum 12 / SPL-Ultra 12 will provide reference output in a room up to 4200 cubic feet, while the 10 inch is rated to 3279 cubic feet.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Morse  /t/1473105/velodyne-spl-1000-ultra-vs-spl-1200-ultra#post_23340365


FYI - a single Optimum 12 / SPL-Ultra 12 will provide reference output in a room up to 4200 cubic feet, while the 10 inch is rated to 3279 cubic feet.

Sadly, real world and rated don't always jibe. DefTech lists the lower extension of a SuperCube 6000 as 14Hz, from a 9" driver and a pair of 8" PR's. I think it's easy to surmise how that would work out as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi Rob.


Your comments are the exact reason why I like Velodyne.

I have auditioned the 10" and found it very good, the 12' can only be better with more extended bass and volume. Real world vs rated performance aside, the Velodyne Optimum/ SPL-R series are excellent subs and based on your comments the 12" appears to be the better choice for me due to the size of the room I have.


Having said that, I am also partial to the B&W PV1D, which as it happens is the exact same price here in NZ.

Reviews indicate that it is superior to the Velodyne 10" but would it be better than the 12"?

"With a grain of salt" Looking at the stats, the B&W do appear to be very good however I do question the stated frequency response of "7.5Hz - 450Hz ±3dB" - How is it possible that twin 8" drivers can produce an audible frequency that low? I can only assume that you will need the volume rather high or your ear next to it to even pick it up. Being twin 8" drivers the output should be comparable to a 12" (cm/3 is only slightly less) but would be punchier!


Anyone audtioned the PV1D?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterx  /t/1473105/velodyne-spl-1000-ultra-vs-spl-1200-ultra#post_23341467


"With a grain of salt" Looking at the stats, the B&W do appear to be very good however I do question the stated frequency response of "7.5Hz - 450Hz ±3dB" - How is it possible that twin 8" drivers can produce an audible frequency that low? I can only assume that you will need the volume rather high or your ear next to it to even pick it up. Being twin 8" drivers the output should be comparable to a 12" (cm/3 is only slightly less) but would be punchier!

It can't produce audible output at 7.5Hz, and that's a prime example of my 'rated' vs 'real world' argument.


A 5" midrange can produce a sub-10Hz tone, but it would be completely inaudible. With the correct equipment you could probably measure it, but you'll never hear it. Frankly, I'm not sure there's a driver in existence that can produce usable output that low. Perhaps the Rotary subwoofer can, but I don't imagine anything else would be able to.
 

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Hey cool, driver porn


http://s3.photobucket.com/user/stevenn/media/driverload003.jpg.html
Quote:
It can't produce audible output at 7.5Hz, and that's a prime example of my 'rated' vs 'real world' argument.


A 5" midrange can produce a sub-10Hz tone, but it would be completely inaudible. With the correct equipment you could probably measure it, but you'll never hear it. Frankly, I'm not sure there's a driver in existence that can produce usable output that low. Perhaps the Rotary subwoofer can, but I don't imagine anything else would be able to.- Jim

+1 Never have been able to get there regardless of how well rated the driver was.
 

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hi there i am also looking at buying a velodyne spl 1000 ultra 10 (the one with the 1200rms amp)

and i have a slightly smaller room 9 x 4.5m and cylinder block walls concrete floor makes it even harder to get bass'

i had a velodyne cht12r which produced heaps of bass but i found i had big problems with phase when listening to music with deep or tight bass. i used the auto setup mic that came the my pioneer receiver but it just made it worse so i turned auto phase off, and then played with the phase on the sub also moved the sub round the room, but i found i ether lost the punch or the lower bass full stop.

so found it is best to just turn the sub off while listening to music.
 

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I have similar thoughts as the OP. I am changing my 8 year old Klipsch Reference Mk.4 type RF83 speakers at my French house for a new pair of ATC SCM-40's, as I am looking for a much crisper, precise sound. I have been very impressed with the ATC SCM-19's I have in my UK house. In France, I have an even older (about 12 or more years) JBL Northridge subwoofer, which was not brilliant when new and now rattles on organ music. I listen 90%+ to classical music and very rarely cinema. My French main room is open plan and has a volume of around 7-8000 cu. feet. Difficult to measure exactly as it has curved walls, sunken centre and projections from the floor above over the sunken centre (it's an early James Bond style house, even built on the edge of a 1000 foot high cliff). The walls are massively thick at around 75cm mixed reinforced concrete and limestone cladding but with a lot of floor to ceiling windows and wide sliding glass doors, all of 8mm thick laminated glass. My ideal subwoofer is the 200 wpc active ATC C1, which I have in my UK house, which you never notice is there and blends totally seamlessly with my SCM-19's. However it is working in a much smaller room of around 2000 cu. feet and would be totally lost in the French house. ATC's next size up of subwoofer, the C4, is way out of my budget. The ATC SCM40's have quite a steep slope cut off at 48 Hz, so really do benefit from a good subwoofer.

My thoughts are either a Velodyne SPL 1000 Ultra or 1200 Ultra or alternatively an SVS PC-12 Plus or SVS SB-13 Ultra. None of the REL's will work for me, as my power amplifiers (2 x Musical Fidelity KW550) are bridged output with both speaker terminals live and my pre-amp, a Meridian G-02 dual mono balanced, does not have a centre output but only R and L. I am just worried that any of the above subwoofers are aimed at the cinema listener rather than the classical music listener. Seamless gentle bass extension is what I am looking for rather than being able to rattle my windows.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Wilson
 

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I agree fully with Jim Wilson. He's tested enough subwoofers to know specs from real world performance. I do think you can get SVS in New Zealand, so I'd take a look at the SB13-Ultra. I use this in a room similar sized to yours (3,400 cu. ft. and rather open). It should outperform the Velodyne. And if driver weight is a parameter, then the Ultra should REALLY outperform the Velodyne.

However, your money, your choice. Enjoy!
 

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I thought I had found the perfect sub in an HSU Research ULS-15. They will ship to France, albeit quite expensively at over $400 but it is a hefty lump at around 40kg. However for some inexplicable reason, they no longer do the beautiful looking real wood rosenut veneer and now only do an industrial matt looking satin black, not even a piano black gloss. This may be fine for DJ's and studio's but not for many folks' living rooms. Poor decision! A great pity as from the reviews, it went particularly well with ATC speakers. Ho Humm back to the drawing board.
 

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I thought I had found the perfect sub in an HSU Research ULS-15. They will ship to France, albeit quite expensively at over $400 but it is a hefty lump at around 40kg. However for some inexplicable reason, they no longer do the beautiful looking real wood rosenut veneer and now only do an industrial matt looking satin black, not even a piano black gloss. This may be fine for DJ's and studio's but not for many folks' living rooms. Poor decision! A great pity as from the reviews, it went particularly well with ATC speakers. Ho Humm back to the drawing board.
What about Rythmik? Their F15HP is quite nice. If shipping is cost prohibitive there are two companies in England that might be worth looking into; BK Electronics and MJ Acoustics. Perhaps those shipping charges will be more reasonable.
 
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