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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Welcome to 2003 lol


I have hundred of VHS tapes to convert to digital. I have been putting off the job for a while due to:


1. The initial reults with my Hauppauge PVR-150 were not great.


2. The sheer size of the job, I plan on it being a one and done and not archiving the old tapes. Thus I have incentive to get it done right the first time.


I have a pretty decent setup. A good older super-VHS JVC deck. A speedy Core 2 Duo PC running XP. A Time base corrector.


The problem I encountered with the Hauppauge card is whenever the camera panned or there was much movement at all on the screen the output looked "strobed"


A very FAST strobe but discrete movement nonetheless that without other info I attribute to the mpeg encoder in the PVR-150. I do not notice this same strobing when converting commercial VHS tapes.


I have available to me the aforementioned PVR-150, and an ATI HD Wonder 600 and am looking for suggestions.


1. The Hauppauge PVR-150 should produce good quality captures so I have a probelm with my setup (Suggestions welcome)


2. I should use the ATI HD Wonder and capture to avi's and then convert myself. (toolchain suggestions welcome)


3. Neither of these is likely to give good results and you should (alternate suggestions welcome)


Spektre
 

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Sounds to me like the video you captured is interlaced. Deinterlace with ffdshow. Don't know why commercial vhs tapes don't show this... I have done a few vhs-> dvd conversions and my method is to capture in lossless. Capturing in lossless gives you the BEST possible quality when capturing but file size is huge, around 100GB for 1.5hours IIRC. Then using HCenc to encode the lossless video to m2v(dvd format). Author with TMPgenc. Great results!
 

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I just finished converting about 150 video tapes to DVD (all ones that I recorded myself).


I was initially going to use my computer to do the actual conversion as you tried, but after several tests I wasn't happy with the quality and decided it would take too long.


Instead I bought a Panasonic combination DVD/VHS recorder and used it instead. For videos that I didn't care if they had the Panasonic generic DVD menus, I just copied the tape directly to DVD-R. Once finalized the DVD can be played on any modern DVD player. If I wanted my own menus or wanted to edit the video befure putting it on the DVD, I copied the tape to DVD-RAM , then copied the file on the DVD-RAM onto my computer (with DVD-RAM there's just one VRO file for the whole video, while on DVD-R the VOB files are limited to 1gb each and must be joined back together after being copied to your PC). Then I used Video ReDo to remove the parts I didn't want, and used DVD-Lab (both commercial products) to author the DVD with the menus I wanted, and finally I used ImgBurn to make the DVD. Since the video file on the DVD-RAM is the same format as used on DVDs, no re-encoding is needed which saves a lot of time and space. One note: make sure your computer DVD recorder can read DVD-RAM files. Some can't.


--Jon
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the feedback all.


I need the customization of the PC, would prefer to do the capturing there and I can't beleive they have better encoders in the VHS-DVD decks. I've been wrong before though.


It's no an interlacing problem. It's a hard one to describe. I think I am going to try the Hauppauge a few more times and if I have no luck, I'll try capturing uncompressed.


Spektre
 

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I've used Hauppauge capture cards for years and they can produce pretty good captures but not with the supplied software. You will need third party software that you can customize for resolution, variable bit rate (max and average), noise reduction, temporal correction, etc. You will need authoring software that does not re-encode. (assuming you are capturing in a DVD compatible format) Note that the latest Hauppauge capture software seems to have removed all of the advanced options.


The card does have a hardware encoder so the capture can be done in real time but you have to set it up right. DVD recorders do everything in hardware also and usually outperform almost any software solution. It sounds like your authoring software is re-encoding. The authoring process should only take 10 - 30 minutes: any longer and your software is getting in the way.


MY opinion: if you have a library of tapes use a standalone DVD recorder. (yes, the cheapest of standalones have better encoding than a software solution) You can import them into the PC later to edit and add menus - no re-encoding required. Be prepared, however, VHS at 6 hour mode will be disappointing; 2 hour/SP won't be too bad but the color is usually poor.
 

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I found one of these new for ~ $400. It cleans up the analog video and converts it to DV in real time. The DV is easily captured to PC over IEEE 1394 (Firewire) just like from a DV camcorder. The results are amazing.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehowell /forum/post/19560538


I found one of these new for ~ $400. It cleans up the analog video and converts it to DV in real time. The DV is easily captured to PC over IEEE 1394 (Firewire) just like from a DV camcorder. The results are amazing.

This biggest drawback with a Firewire capture is the enormous encoding time required since it is not a DVD compatible format.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod7501 /forum/post/0



This biggest drawback with a Firewire capture is the enormous encoding time required since it is not a DVD compatible format.

Windows plays DV files just fine so I just archive to hard disk. You can store 80+ hours of DV (or HDV) per TB (at 25 Mbps). I do make DVDs on occasion and the quality is still good after transcoding.
 

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The reason I recommend archiving in a playable format, (DVD/Blu-Ray) is the extra level of error correction. A corrupted data file is pretty much lost without recovery software while a corrupted DVD has a glitch and plays on.


Portability used to be an issue also but most modern players can play video data files, just without chapters or (often) FF/REW features.


Corrupted/damaged self created DVDs can be recovered with something as simple as DVDDecrypter on a PC or playback from DVD player to any recorder. (no CSS or DRM on your own disks)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod7501 /forum/post/19560454


I've used Hauppauge capture cards for years and they can produce pretty good captures but not with the supplied software. You will need third party software that you can customize for resolution, variable bit rate (max and average), noise reduction, temporal correction, etc. You will need authoring software that does not re-encode. (assuming you are capturing in a DVD compatible format) Note that the latest Hauppauge capture software seems to have removed all of the advanced options.


The card does have a hardware encoder so the capture can be done in real time but you have to set it up right. DVD recorders do everything in hardware also and usually outperform almost any software solution. It sounds like your authoring software is re-encoding. The authoring process should only take 10 - 30 minutes: any longer and your software is getting in the way.


MY opinion: if you have a library of tapes use a standalone DVD recorder. (yes, the cheapest of standalones have better encoding than a software solution) You can import them into the PC later to edit and add menus - no re-encoding required. Be prepared, however, VHS at 6 hour mode will be disappointing; 2 hour/SP won't be too bad but the color is usually poor.

A couple follow up questions.


1. What third party software supports the Hauppauge cards?


2. It's not a reencoding problem, I am familiar with that and make sure I capture to a DVD compatible format and (unfortunately) need to keep my capture to about one hour per DVD to make sure it fits without a reencode. The Hauppauge card is not a software solution, its a hardware encoder. YOu are saying you beleive standalones have a superior encoder than the Hauppauge?


3. Surely capturing uncompressed and having a good software encoder will take much longer but produce better results, no?


Spektre
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektre99 /forum/post/19575817


A couple follow up questions.


1. What third party software supports the Hauppauge cards?

A number of options: GB-PVR (there is a new version with a slightly different name), Sage TV, MediaPortal, Windows own Media Center, and I'm sure a few others that I can't remember right now. I use WinTvCap, a command line background recorder since I don't need or want an EPG (Electronic Programming Guide) based program.

Quote:
2. It's not a reencoding problem, I am familiar with that and make sure I capture to a DVD compatible format and (unfortunately) need to keep my capture to about one hour per DVD to make sure it fits without a reencode. The Hauppauge card is not a software solution, its a hardware encoder.

The Hauppauge cards use a hardware encoder but their (current) software does not allow access to the advanced functions. I quit using their software years ago. Some of the accessible functions are:

[DVDLP]

VideoStreamType = 102 // 0:Unknown, 101:program, 102: DVD, 103: DVD_MediaCenter, 104:SVCD, 201: MPEG1, 202:VCD

VideoResolution = 1 // 0:Unknown, 1:FullD1(720), 2:TwoThirdsD1(480), 3:HalfD1(352), 4:320, 5:640

VideoBitrateMode = 1 // 0:CBR, 1:VBR

VideoBitrateAve = 3000 // Kbits/sec

VideoBitratePeak = 6000 // Kbits/sec

VideoClosedGOP = 1 // 0:Open Gop, 1:Closed Gop

VideoGopN = 15 // size of GOP

VideoGopM = 3 // B frames between P frames

AudioOutputMode = 0 // 0:Stereo, 1;Joint Stereo, 2: Dual Channel, 3:Mono

AudioSamplingRate = 2 // 0:32Khz, 1:44.1kHz, 2:48kHz

AudioDataRate = 11 // 1:32Kbit, 2:48Kbit, 3:56Kbit, 4:64Kbit, 5:80:Kbit 6:96kbit, 7:112kbit, 8:128Kbit, 9:160Kbit, 10:192Kbit, 11:224Kbit, 12:256Kbit, 13:320Kbit, 14:384Kbit

AudioCrc = 0 // 0: Disable, 1:Enable

InverseTelecine = 0 // 0:OFF, 1:ON

[PROCAMP.Xbar418]

Hue = 0 // [-128:128], 0:default

Brightness = 0 // [-128:127], 0:default

Contrast = 128 // [ 0:255], 128:default

Saturation = 128 // [ 0:255], 128:default

Sharpness = 3 // [ 3:7 ], 3:default


[PREFILTER]

Mode = 0 // 0: Disable, 1:Horizontal, 2:Verticle, 3:Horizontal+Verticle, 4: Diagonal

LumaType = 1 // 0: Disable, 1:1 D-Horizontal, 2:1 D-Verticle, 3:2D-Horizontal+Verticle, 4:2 D-Symmetric

ChromaType = 1 // 0: Disable, 1:1 D-Horizontal

StaticTemporal = 1 // 0:Static, 1: Dynamic

StaticSpatial = 1 // 0:Static, 1: Dynamic

TemporalLevel = 8 // [0-15], 8: Default, 4 might be better for non-tuner soures

SpatialLevel = 0 // [0-15], 0: Default

LumaLow = 0 // [0-256], 0: Default

LumaHigh = 256 // [0-256], 256: Default

ChromaLow = 0 // [0-256], 0: Default

ChromaHigh = 256 // [0-256], 256: Default


The most critical item are the bit rates. The 3Mbit avg, and 6Mbit max. allow pretty good quality without motion artifacts and allow about 3 hours on a single DVD. Upping it to 4Mbit avg. and 8Mbit max. is the standard for commercial DVDs and allows a bit over 2 hours on a disk. Note that they are variable bit rate (VBR) and not constant bit rate (CBR). Anything that only lists 4 or 5 settings for quality is probably using CBR and that will usually cause artifacts.

Quote:
YOu are saying you beleive standalones have a superior encoder than the Hauppauge?

Probably, since they use newer designs than the Hauppauge cards, although they are quite similar. A chip manufacturer is going to supply only the latest designs for manufacturing. Fabrication cost is going to be almost the same for new and old designs, so only the new are usually available. The standalones have their settings pretty well optimized and the Hauppauge requires proper software and tweaking to provide the same (or better) results.

Quote:
3. Surely capturing uncompressed and having a good software encoder will take much longer but produce better results, no?


Spektre

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "uncompressed". Mpeg2 is a compressed format at any bit rate. AVI is compressed also, just in a different manner. (interframe vs intraframe)


Too high a bit rate and you will be trying to compress noise. Many people have found that a format called HalfD1 (a valid DVD format) works well for VHS transfers. It is a reduced resolution format - 352x480 - that matches up well with the 230 line resolution of VHS tape.


Stuttering is usually caused by too low of a max bit rate or poor frame rate conversion. (Frame rate comes into play mostly when going from PAL to NTSC or from movie rates (~24 fps) to 60 fps.


Personally, I'm a believer in using hardware over software whenever possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod7501 /forum/post/19578062


A number of options: GB-PVR (there is a new version with a slightly different name), Sage TV, MediaPortal, Windows own Media Center, and I'm sure a few others that I can't remember right now. I use WinTvCap, a command line background recorder since I don't need or want an EPG (Electronic Programming Guide) based program.



The Hauppauge cards use a hardware encoder but their (current) software does not allow access to the advanced functions. I quit using their software years ago. Some of the accessible functions are:

[DVDLP]

VideoStreamType = 102 // 0:Unknown, 101:program, 102: DVD, 103: DVD_MediaCenter, 104:SVCD, 201: MPEG1, 202:VCD

VideoResolution = 1 // 0:Unknown, 1:FullD1(720), 2:TwoThirdsD1(480), 3:HalfD1(352), 4:320, 5:640

VideoBitrateMode = 1 // 0:CBR, 1:VBR

VideoBitrateAve = 3000 // Kbits/sec

VideoBitratePeak = 6000 // Kbits/sec

VideoClosedGOP = 1 // 0:Open Gop, 1:Closed Gop

VideoGopN = 15 // size of GOP

VideoGopM = 3 // B frames between P frames

AudioOutputMode = 0 // 0:Stereo, 1;Joint Stereo, 2: Dual Channel, 3:Mono

AudioSamplingRate = 2 // 0:32Khz, 1:44.1kHz, 2:48kHz

AudioDataRate = 11 // 1:32Kbit, 2:48Kbit, 3:56Kbit, 4:64Kbit, 5:80:Kbit 6:96kbit, 7:112kbit, 8:128Kbit, 9:160Kbit, 10:192Kbit, 11:224Kbit, 12:256Kbit, 13:320Kbit, 14:384Kbit

AudioCrc = 0 // 0: Disable, 1:Enable

InverseTelecine = 0 // 0:OFF, 1:ON

[PROCAMP.Xbar418]

Hue = 0 // [-128:128], 0:default

Brightness = 0 // [-128:127], 0:default

Contrast = 128 // [ 0:255], 128:default

Saturation = 128 // [ 0:255], 128:default

Sharpness = 3 // [ 3:7 ], 3:default


[PREFILTER]

Mode = 0 // 0: Disable, 1:Horizontal, 2:Verticle, 3:Horizontal+Verticle, 4: Diagonal

LumaType = 1 // 0: Disable, 1:1 D-Horizontal, 2:1 D-Verticle, 3:2D-Horizontal+Verticle, 4:2 D-Symmetric

ChromaType = 1 // 0: Disable, 1:1 D-Horizontal

StaticTemporal = 1 // 0:Static, 1: Dynamic

StaticSpatial = 1 // 0:Static, 1: Dynamic

TemporalLevel = 8 // [0-15], 8: Default, 4 might be better for non-tuner soures

SpatialLevel = 0 // [0-15], 0: Default

LumaLow = 0 // [0-256], 0: Default

LumaHigh = 256 // [0-256], 256: Default

ChromaLow = 0 // [0-256], 0: Default

ChromaHigh = 256 // [0-256], 256: Default


The most critical item are the bit rates. The 3Mbit avg, and 6Mbit max. allow pretty good quality without motion artifacts and allow about 3 hours on a single DVD. Upping it to 4Mbit avg. and 8Mbit max. is the standard for commercial DVDs and allows a bit over 2 hours on a disk. Note that they are variable bit rate (VBR) and not constant bit rate (CBR). Anything that only lists 4 or 5 settings for quality is probably using CBR and that will usually cause artifacts.


Probably, since they use newer designs than the Hauppauge cards, although they are quite similar. A chip manufacturer is going to supply only the latest designs for manufacturing. Fabrication cost is going to be almost the same for new and old designs, so only the new are usually available. The standalones have their settings pretty well optimized and the Hauppauge requires proper software and tweaking to provide the same (or better) results.



I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "uncompressed". Mpeg2 is a compressed format at any bit rate. AVI is compressed also, just in a different manner. (interframe vs intraframe)


Too high a bit rate and you will be trying to compress noise. Many people have found that a format called HalfD1 (a valid DVD format) works well for VHS transfers. It is a reduced resolution format - 352x480 - that matches up well with the 230 line resolution of VHS tape.


Stuttering is usually caused by too low of a max bit rate or poor frame rate conversion. (Frame rate comes into play mostly when going from PAL to NTSC or from movie rates (~24 fps) to 60 fps.


Personally, I'm a believer in using hardware over software whenever possible.

Thanks. WinTVCap looks promising for allowing some of the processor amps settings. I have been capturing in VBR 6400 ave. 8000 max. I still see the motion artifacts (and only can fit an hour or so on a DVD). Maybe some of the spatial filters I can access with this tool will help.


The .avi files I was referring to were indeed uncompressed and very large.


Spektre
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by H8nXTC /forum/post/19578427


What are you using to remove the macrovision protection from the VHS tapes (assuming you didn't record them with your own VCR)?

A Hauppauge capture card...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy
A Hauppauge capture card...
The Hauppauge cards don't have a macrovision chip inside, unlike standalone boxes. As long as you don't use Windows Media Center (or whatever the latest incarnation is) the cards themselves are DRM free. All copy protection is done by the application software - another reason to avoid MCE.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod7501 /forum/post/19578062


I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "uncompressed". Mpeg2 is a compressed format at any bit rate. AVI is compressed also, just in a different manner. (interframe vs intraframe)

uncompressed = lossless capturing

You capture EXACTLY what is being input basically, there is no compression artifacts. This way you can feed that uncompressed feed to an encoder and use high quality settings(2-pass). I don't know how well hardware encoders do in terms of quality so I can't say which is better...
 
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