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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just bought a new Harman Kardon AVR-247 Receiver. In trying to get the OSD to work with my TV, I discovered that none of the Video Output Monitors seem to work. Forget about getting an actual video source to run through the receiver, the OSD will not appear whether I connect the receiver to my TV via the S-video, component video or the RCA video output.


Am I missing something fundamental or is there a problem with my unit?


Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhusker /forum/post/0


Can you provide a little more detail about your setup? What display model are you using? Also, does the front of the AVR read "OSD On"?

The TV is a new Samsung LNT-4665F (LCD) and I checked that the various input connections on the TV work.


And yes, the AVR does say "OSD On."
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyodynamic /forum/post/0


The TV is a new Samsung LNT-4665F (LCD) and I checked that the various input connections on the TV work.


And yes, the AVR does say "OSD On."

Have you tried HDMI? If you connect a source component to the TV directly to the same input, do you get a picture?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhusker /forum/post/0


Have you tried HDMI? If you connect a source component to the TV directly to the same input, do you get a picture?

The TV is definitely fine. I've connected various sources (including via HDMI) directly to the TV and those all work fine. Right now, the HK is handling audio fine -- so I'm able to watch satellite or DVDs by connecting the video directly to the TV and running the audio to the receiver. But if I try to run the video through the receiver, I'm getting bubkis.


As a test, I disconnected everything to the HK except for a single S-video out from the video output to the TV to get the OSD to show. No luck. I then disconnected the S-video and tried the same with the component cables and finally with the RCA cable. No luck there either.


I'm getting the sinking feeling that I got a bad unit (but the audio works just fine).
 

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hmmm...if you've tried [AVR 247]->[Display] via HDMI with "OSD on" and that doesn't work, you may be right in that you got a bad unit. I'm no expert, but when I had the 247 I never had an issue with the OSD.


Just as an FYI, I ended up returning the 247 tonight and purchased a Yamaha RX-V661. There were a few issues with the 247 that you may want to be aware of:


(1) No LFE boost (at least via HDMI PCM)


(2) No 5.1/7.1 PCM (designed to only process 2 channel PCM...it will sometimes show all 6 speakers on the front display, but you'll notice when you try to access individual speakers that only the L/R/SW are available)


(3) No pass-through option for 480/720 signals


None of these may be issues for you at all, but I thought I'd let you know why I returned mine. It was a bit gut-wrenching, too, because the H/K sound was really, really nice. If you are passing 1080i/p signals and are largely processing bitstream or 2 channel PCM, this is a killer AVR for the price. Also, if you are wanting to use the video processing (which I can't imagine since you have a 1080p display), it does a good job processing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhusker /forum/post/0


hmmm...if you've tried [AVR 247]->[Display] via HDMI with "OSD on" and that doesn't work, you may be right in that you got a bad unit.

Well, I'm glad I asked. When I connected the HDMI out to the monitor, the OSD finally came on! It was the only connection I hadn't checked.


So now my follow-up question: why is HDMI the only video output from the receiver that my TV will recognize?
 

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I don't know why any other video outputs did not work. I used only HDMI and everything worked for me. Also, 5.1 channel PCM works fine. In fact, it works great. I agree LFE boost is absent. The only issue I had are the video scaling and the LFE. The PCM quality itself was superb.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai /forum/post/0


I don't know why any other video outputs did not work. I used only HDMI and everything worked for me. Also, 5.1 channel PCM works fine. In fact, it works great. I agree LFE boost is absent. The only issue I had are the video scaling and the LFE. The PCM quality itself was superb.

I could be wrong, but I'll share why I had understood the the AVR 247 to be incapable of 5.1/7.1 PCM.


I've had one of three things happen when I've output 5.1 PCM to the AVR 247:


1) The AVR display shows MCPCM, L/R show as having input, and only the L/R channels play (e.g. I can't hear dialogue, just the mains). This is corrected when I set the component source to 2 channel PCM.


2) L/R show as having input, and 5.1 channels play, suggesting that a 2 channel PCM signal has been received and converted (matrixed?) into 5.1 channels. All channels can be adjusted in this scenario.


3) 5.1 channels show as having input, but when I actually try to adjust the channels, I am only able to access L/R/SW. This also led me to believe that only two channels were being processed.



Two other observations lead me to believe that the AVR 247 is incapable of 5.1/7.1 PCM:


1) I spoke with H/K tech support this afternoon, and the tech helping me told me that the AVR was unable, by design, to process anything but two channel PCM.


2) Page 45 of the AVR 247 manual states "Digital formats include Dolby Digital 2.0 (two channels only), Dolby Digital 5.1, Dolby Digital EX, DTS 5.1, DTS-ES (6.1 Matrix and Discrete), DTS 96/24 and 2-channel PCM modes in 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz or 96kHz." Unless I'm reading this wrong (and it wouldn't surprise me if I were), this suggests that it was built with the assumption that it would only be processing 2 channel PCM.


Again, I might be wrong here as I'm very new to this, but this is why I'm of the belief that the 247 doesn't process 5.1/7.1 PCM.


Also, just to be clear, this is only via HDMI. I'm not sure how it works over other outputs.
 

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I owned the 247 for three weeks before returning it and I can guarantee that 5.1 PCM worked properly through HDMI from my PS3. I played Casino Royale, and several other Bluray movies. All the channels were lit. I agree that when PCM audio is present, did does not allow you to adjust the back channels and center channel. Don't know why, but the 5.1 PCM works though. In fact, you can confirm this if you have PS3. Go to the audio settings for HDMI and do a auto setting and it will list 2 channel PCM as well as 5.1 channel PCM at various sampling rates. The sound was not matrixed and I was not missing dialog or anything else. Are you using HDMI for audio? Optical/Coax does not support 5.1 PCM - only 2.0 PCM.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai /forum/post/0


I owned the 247 for three weeks before returning it and I can guarantee that 5.1 PCM worked properly through HDMI from my PS3. I played Casino Royale, and several other Bluray movies. All the channels were lit. I agree that when PCM audio is present, did does not allow you to adjust the back channels and center channel. Don't know why, but the 5.1 PCM works though. In fact, you can confirm this if you have PS3. Go to the audio settings for HDMI and do a auto setting and it will list 2 channel PCM as well as 5.1 channel PCM at various sampling rates. The sound was not matrixed and I was not missing dialog or anything else. Are you using HDMI for audio? Optical/Coax does not support 5.1 PCM - only 2.0 PCM.

That's funny...that's about exactly the amount of time I owned mine. I was in the same boat as you as well in that I REALLY liked the way it sounded, and hated giving it up.


I may be interpreting your PS3 scenario above a little differently than you are. I too ran exactly the same scenario when I had the AVR 247 and found, like you did, that the PS3 enabled both 2 channel PCM and 5.1 channel PCM. All 5 speakers showed as having input on the AVR 247 and sound was coming from all speakers. Only the mains and the SW were accessible. My interpretation of this is that the PS3 is sending 2 channel PCM which is being matrixed in the AVR. A more definitive test would be to disable 2 channel from the PS3, allowing only 5.1 to be sent. Did you ever test this configuration? I'm also struggling with both the feedback from the H/K tech as well as the AVR 247 manual, which only identifies 2 channel as part of its defined set of digital formats.


Out of curiosity, how can you tell whether the signal is being matrixed? Is it by ear, or is there some display that shows it (I wouldn't have a clue)?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhusker /forum/post/0


2) Page 45 of the AVR 247 manual states "Digital formats include Dolby Digital 2.0 (two channels only), Dolby Digital 5.1, Dolby Digital EX, DTS 5.1, DTS-ES (6.1 Matrix and Discrete), DTS 96/24 and 2-channel PCM modes in 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz or 96kHz." Unless I'm reading this wrong (and it wouldn't surprise me if I were), this suggests that it was built with the assumption that it would only be processing 2 channel PCM.


Again, I might be wrong here as I'm very new to this, but this is why I'm of the belief that the 247 doesn't process 5.1/7.1 PCM.


Also, just to be clear, this is only via HDMI. I'm not sure how it works over other outputs.

The manual also says on page 23


"NOTE:The multichannel analog audio connection is not required for DVD-Audio players compliant with HDMI version 1.1 or better, or HD-DVD and Blue-ray Disc players that decode the digital audio internally and output linear PCM signals in digital format. Consult the owner's guide for your disc player for more information"


Hmm. I need to test this with Oppo981. I get mine on Thursday...
 

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Very interested to see how the test fares. Out of curiosity, can you disable 2-channel/enable 5.1 channel PCM in the OPPO? If not, could you report as to whether you are able to (a) see all 5.1 channels indicated on the front of the 247, and (2) access all 5.1 channels (as though you were going to individually adjust their levels)? This is the issue I was having. From the AVR's display, it appeared as though 5.1 was working fine. However, only being able to access the L/R/SW channels made me suspicious that something else was going on. Thanks for your efforts to help us understand this more clearly.
 

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ckhusker - i already have an easy answer for you. I set the PS3 to always output linear PCM out of the HDMI. In this case, even normal Dolby Digital disks are decoded on board and then sent to the receiver as Multi channel PCM. Then I used the Digital Video essentials DVD and did the pink noise test. It was able to test all five channels and the sub woofer separately. The receiver won't be able to do this if it is taking 2 channel and matrixing it. So, beyond a shadow of doubt, I know that 5.1 PCM is being sent from the PS3 and is processed by the 247.


In fact, this linear PCM Bistream test is what I used along with the pink noise generation in the DVE disk to determine that the LFE boost is not happening for PCM but was happening for Dolby Digital.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai /forum/post/0


The receiver won't be able to do this if it is taking 2 channel and matrixing it.

I'm struggling a bit with this (largely because I'm new to this...your explanations are good and very helpful. When I set my XA2 to output 2-channel PCM, my H/K AVR did two things:


(1) showed only the L/R channels as being input (all others had boxes around them, but no letters in the boxes)


(2) allowed me to access each channel separately.


Item #2 appears to contradict the part of your post I quoted above. For clarification, what will happen if you attempted your individual-channel tests in a scenario where the AVR was fed 2-channel PCM and matrixed it?


Please understand I'm not disputing your claims or even attempting to defend the idea that the AVR 247 doesn't do MCPCM. I'm really just trying to get my head around this stuff in general, and trying to reconcile your observations and the conclusions you've drawn from them with all of the other information I've taken in in the last few days. I appreciate your patience and willingness to engage in this. Thanks
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhusker /forum/post/0


Very interested to see how the test fares. Out of curiosity, can you disable 2-channel/enable 5.1 channel PCM in the OPPO? If not, could you report as to whether you are able to (a) see all 5.1 channels indicated on the front of the 247, and (2) access all 5.1 channels (as though you were going to individually adjust their levels)? This is the issue I was having. From the AVR's display, it appeared as though 5.1 was working fine. However, only being able to access the L/R/SW channels made me suspicious that something else was going on. Thanks for your efforts to help us understand this more clearly.

Hi ckhusker,

Conducted this test. Oppo was set to 5.1 PCM. I played Multichannel SACD

- All 5.1 channels were see on the front Dispay along with names(L/R/LFE/SR/SL).

It also showed me 88.2 k PCM

- I could NOT access the sorround channels to set their levels.


Then I put in DD 5.1 DVD

- All 5.1 channels were seen along with names

- I was able to access surrounds as well


The third test, I put in 2channel CD

- Only 2 channels were seen on front

- I could not access surround channels.


Then I overlay logic 7 for this mode.

The surround channels were displayed, however, for the surround channels I could only see the boxes. No names for SR/SL were in the boxes. I could also access all the channels.


So, the difference between the first and last test was.

- During first test all channels were shown with discreet names on them

- During last test(logic 7), all channels were displayed but only front channels had names on them. I think that means, only front channels were receiving inputs??


So, I concluded that it is processing 5.1 PCM but needs a firmware upgrade to access all channels.

In any case, for the price I paid thru EPP, I really liked the sound so much, I'm going to keep it. I'm also off of the Panny xr57 bandwagon.... It moved to the bedroom.
 

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Just because you can't access each channel to modify something does not mean it is not processing it. If you have a letter in the box, that means it is getting signal for that channel. If you see a box with no letter then it is generating that sound through DSP. If you don't see any box that means there is no DSP for that channel and no signal. I believe the 247 restricts what all can be done when it receives a 5.1 PCM.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai /forum/post/0


In fact, this linear PCM Bistream test is what I used along with the pink noise generation in the DVE disk to determine that the LFE boost is not happening for PCM but was happening for Dolby Digital.

HK support told me that 10DB boost is a DD standard, but it may not apply to LPCM. I agreed in principle. HE said that the disks needs to be mastered correctly for LPCM and the processor do not have to boost it by 10DBs. Imagine, what would happen to the MPCM music if the LFE is boosted by 10DBs.


In any case, they should have given an option to adjust LFE..
 

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Sam1000, H/K is kinda impractical on this one. All newer DVD-Audio and SACD masterings take into account the 10dB boost. Only some early titles did not require the 10dB boost. What is weird is how every manufacturer including Pioneer, Marantz is rapidly implementing firmware fixes, while H/K denies the problem even exists. Also, H/K's own 645 and 745 receivers already have the 10dB boost. I have confirmed this. Since these two receivers are older than the 247 and 347, it looks like H/K decided to back pedal out of the 10dB boost which does not make any sense. Ideally I would like to have options for 10dB boost.
 
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