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Don't all AVRs have a pass through mode? My Anthem doesn't change the signal at all.
It depends on the model. The Anthem's are great about this, but I've seen others that do futz with things (and some don't if you set them up right, but I have PLENTY of clients that never do). But I agree that the main issue is HDMI issues in regards to stability more than changing the video signal itself.
 

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The Envy is not final, so I really think its folly and unfair to do in depth comparisons on a pre-release unit unless you plan on doing it again when the unit is final, in which case that's of course up to you how you use your time.
Couldn't agree more on this point. As it stands now, the Envy should not be evaluated as a final product because it isn't shipping. I understand that even after it ships it will continue to be updated, that is the same reality for the Lumagen (which even this week received a rather important HDR DTM upgrade). But evaluating a product that is not even shipping yet seems a bit premature unless the point is to provide feedback directly to the manufacturer as part of development testing.

Also, if any testing was published from this, it would need to be HIGHLY emphasized that the unit that was not final shipping product was indeed NOT FINAL SHIPPING PRODUCT.
 

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As it stands now, the Envy should not be evaluated as a final product because it isn't shipping.
AFAIR @ARROW-AV said that in the Envy thread himself, so i´m also a bit surprised about his statement. I guess he´ll clarify what his plans are. :)
 
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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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Discussion Starter · #44 · (Edited)
Let’s make something abundantly clear… further to genuine beta-testers, the madVR Envy has been and is being sold directly to customers. This has been and is with respect to pre-release sales but customer sales nonetheless. So please can everyone stop with all the talk of the product not shipping yet. I'm not going to go into details and I'd rather stick to the products, so let's leave it there.

That said, seriously don’t worry 🙂 it was already my intention and I will be making very clear, whatever the results actually are, that the results apply to the situation as of right now at the present time; and that BOTH products are continuing to have ongoing product development, and as such both manufacturers will have the opportunity to take on board the results and act accordingly. I will also make clear that the Envy is in more of an embryonic stage as compared with the Lumagen and is in a pre-release state.

We are also going to oversee having repeat objective evaluations and measurements carried out as and when there are substantial updates and improvements made with respect to both products. Worth noting that the Lumagen Radiance Pro isn't a 'final product' either. Wherein the nature of these products are that they will continue to be improved and evolve on an ongoing basis. Hence, I foresee this as being an ongoing process and will hopefully prove to be a useful resource for both manufacturers.
 

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Well, the Envy is officially still in beta stage whereas the Lumagen is not.
But correct, the Envy is shipping to endusers, so if this is the prerequisite to take part of the comparison, then so be it.
I´d also say that in terms of image processing, the Envy is finished ("finished" in the sense Nigel stated above). Madshi is currently working on the last features which should not affect the processing piece.
So i´m looking forward. :)
 

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Let’s make something abundantly clear…
further to genuine beta-testers, the madVR Envy has been sold directly to customers.
This has been with respect to limited pre-release sales but customer sales nonetheless.

So please can everyone stop with all the talk of the product not shipping yet.


I'm not going to go into details and I'd rather stick to the products, so let's leave it there.

That said, seriously don’t worry 🙂 it was already my intention and I will be making very clear, whatever the results actually are, that the results apply to the situation as of right now at the present time; and that BOTH products are continuing to have ongoing product development, and as such both manufacturers will have the opportunity to take on board the results and act accordingly. I will also make clear that the Envy is in more of an embryonic stage as compared with the Lumagen and is in a pre-release state.

We are also going to oversee having repeat objective evaluations and measurements carried out as and when there are substantial updates and improvements made with respect to both products. Worth noting that the Lumagen Radiance Pro isn't a 'final product' either. Wherein the nature of these products are that they will continue to be improved and evolve on an ongoing basis. Hence, I foresee this as being an ongoing process and will hopefully prove to be a useful resource for both manufacturers.
Nigel,
I'm glad someone had the "Nerve" to "Finally" say it like it really is regarding the below comments:
Let’s make something abundantly clear…
further to genuine beta-testers, the madVR Envy has been sold directly to customers.
This has been with respect to limited pre-release sales but customer sales nonetheless.

So please can everyone stop with all the talk of the product not shipping yet.
I am reading and following Both the ENVY & Lumagen "Dedicated" threads and have saw "Multiple-Times" where the ENVY has been SOLD to Multiple-People.
Like you I am so tired of this CRAP that the ENVY Video processors have NOT-been-Released or Sold YET to the Public !!!

Terry
 

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As far as I know (which may be wrong for sure), it has only been sold to some dealers or perspective dealers and people that signed on for the beta early look program. You cannot go to the MadVR site or to a dealer and order one. So more clarification may be needed there.

I have heard though that the image processing in regards to scaling/DTM is in a finished state (and is essentially the same as the PC side of things) and that the work being done now has more to do with usage cases and HDMI. But again, I have not heard anything through official channels.

My main concern (AND IT HAS BEEN FROM THE START) is any product misrepresentation. This applies to both the Envy and the Lumagen. I've said this MANY times already in the Envy and Lumagen threads. I saw it pretty rampant (misinformation and outright lies) about the Lumagen for quite some time and commented on it only to be lambasted by others saying I was simply doing it because I am a Lumagen fan boy, but my thoughts on the matter apply equally to both products. Perception of fairness goes both ways, if you start testing the Envy with negative results, there will be a lot of folks that will cry foul based on the fact that the product is not shipping and say it is not fair. I agree both products are fluid in their development and both will no doubt have MANY updates to come, so as long as all the cards are on the table for all to see the situation at time of testing, it shouldn't be a huge deal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 · (Edited)
Like I said, further to genuine beta-testers, the madVR Envy has been and is being sold to customers. You also just had an Envy dealer ^^^ confirm that "correct, the Envy is shipping to endusers". Hence to state that it's not shipping yet and isn't being sold to customers quite simply is not true. So not your typical pre-launch situation at all. Not to labour the point though.

The more important point is that the product is still in development and it is still technically in its pre-release phase, not official general release yet, albeit with only "finishing touches" to be completed reportedly by madVR themselves.

There won't be any product misrepresentation.

I reiterate that I will be making very clear, whatever the results actually are, that the results apply to the situation as of right now at the present time; and that BOTH products are continuing to have ongoing product development. I will also make clear that the Envy is in more of an embryonic stage as compared with the Lumagen. But the Lumagen isn't a 'final product' either. It will still continue to evolve and be improved as time goes on. Just like the Envy.
 

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As far as I know (which may be wrong for sure), it has only been sold to some dealers or perspective dealers and people that signed on for the beta early look program. You cannot go to the MadVR site or to a dealer and order one.
Yes, you can, Kris.
We´ve already sold a couple of them, Pro and Extreme, to "normal" customers for a special pre-release price.
They are just normal users who are aware that there are some features still missing and that there might be some hickups that will be fixed as part of the standard support and further development.
So if you want one, just drop me a note. :cool:
 

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It’s nice that the Envy will have IP control. I am surprised Lumagen hasn’t offered this as an upgrade yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lumagen doesn't have ethernet module controller and it has different architecture, Envy is pure PC so IP control is very easy to implement this feature. But hold on as me and Jim trying to work on Solutions in regards to this, yet we don't know when this will be available.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk
 

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It’s nice that the Envy will have IP control. I am surprised Lumagen hasn’t offered this as an upgrade yet.
I don't know, it's one of those things that if you need it's not exactly hard to add with a serial server, and most control systems have serial ports built in, so it's hard to lose sleep over. Anyone in CI is likely not to care that much as it is something they'll already be solving for other kit in the system. In my own system, for example, my screen masks also require RS232 control.

In my own setup the serial of the Radiance is connected to a Raspberry Pi acting as a control system.

Sure, it would be nice to have in a future iteration. I don't think I'd buy or not buy either though on the basis of this.
 

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Actually, i´d even prefer RS232 over IP since in my experience RS232 is more solid compared to IP. For IP, a lot of things can interfere, RS232 is just a straight wire connection (which also is one of the downsides because you need a straight wire connection - you can add a serial-to-IP-converter, but then you´ll add an additional point of failure). However, most modern devices drop RS232 support so it´s fine to move to IP-only.
So basically both techniques have their pros and cons.
The important thing that the device has a control API and i think that´s true for both the Lumagen and the Envy (when it´s finished).
 

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Nigel,
I'm glad someone had the "Nerve" to "Finally" say it like it really is regarding the below comments:


I am reading and following Both the ENVY & Lumagen "Dedicated" threads and have saw "Multiple-Times" where the ENVY has been SOLD to Multiple-People.
Like you I am so tired of this CRAP that the ENVY Video processors have NOT-been-Released or Sold YET to the Public !!!

Terry
Well the ENVY is not feature complete for its set of launch features yet and also you cannot just go to the store somewhere or even the ENVY site and buy one. You might be able to get a pre-release version with some sort of agreement. I don't consider this "released".
 

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In my own system, for example, my screen masks also require RS232 control.
Good grief you should send a fax to that company and complain.
 
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Actually, i´d even prefer RS232 over IP since in my experience RS232 is more solid compared to IP. For IP, a lot of things can interfere, RS232 is just a straight wire connection (which also is one of the downsides because you need a straight wire connection - you can add a serial-to-IP-converter, but then you´ll add an additional point of failure). However, most modern devices drop RS232 support so it´s fine to move to IP-only.
So basically both techniques have their pros and cons.
The important thing that the device has a control API and i think that´s true for both the Lumagen and the Envy (when it´s finished).
There is absolutely nothing in the technology of RS232 that makes it more stable or reliable than IP control. It's one thing if you're relying on wi-fi for your IP control. But if you're on a wired network (which you should be), the ethernet is is easily 1000 - 100,000 times faster than RS232 which means it has far more headroom. Also, RS232 is point to point. You can only have 1 device that can control another. Once a device is on your network, it can be controlled or queried by numerous devices (computer, phone, whatever).
 

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There is absolutely nothing in the technology of RS232 that makes it more stable or reliable than IP control. It's one thing if you're relying on wi-fi for your IP control. But if you're on a wired network (which you should be), the ethernet is is easily 1000 - 100,000 times faster than RS232 which means it has far more headroom. Also, RS232 is point to point. You can only have 1 device that can control another. Once a device is on your network, it can be controlled or queried by numerous devices (computer, phone, whatever).
I didn´t want to start a principle discussion on the pros and cons of automation interfaces.

IP is a multi layer protocol - there are lots of things that can go wrong while traveling throught these layers... RS232 is just much simpler.

I´m doing integration and automation since over 20 years now and found RS232 having less issues during these years. A lot of professional installer still prefer RS232 over IP if they have the choice.
IP WOL sometimes doesn´t work after a hard power off, you need to take care about LAN interfaces not being in power-save mode, sometimes just dropping communications, reliablity issues because of instable network, etc. I found RS232 just to work.
For just a simple control connection, i don´t need the speed of a LAN connection, the 19.200bps or even 9.600bps of simple RS232 interface are more than enough to send some commands or receive some feedback about the status of the device.
In addition, i never had the requirement to control a video processor from multiple devices at the same time as it usually sits right next to the control system.

As i said, both have it´s pros and cons and i wouldn´t rate the absence of a RS232 port as an issue with the Envy. But i´d say the same for the missing LAN port of a Lumagen.
 

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Good grief you should send a fax to that company and complain.
Nah, my telex machine no longer has any line to plug into, so I typed it out on the console and got the whole thing collected on a fork lift... :)
Seriously though it's just not unusual for RS232 and other serial incarnations to be the interface of choice in automation land, for all kinds of reasons, including those of robustness.

There is absolutely nothing in the technology of RS232 that makes it more stable or reliable than IP control.
Of course there is; as soon as you introduce another device, more cables, software stack layers and extra protocols you're increasing chance of failure.
Extra points of failure include:
The switch dying
The extra cable connections failing
Software and protocol issues
Other devices on the network misbehaving
etc etc, the list goes on.

I'm not using any of this as a reason for why a Radiance shouldn't get an ethernet interface - heck, if it had it I'd have used it for my automation as the robustness of IP is frankly good enough in my install - but there clearly are benefits to simpler technologies for interfacing stuff.

BTW I know you've done a fair bit of JVC automation and I'm sure you've seen the occasional state the IP control interface gets into on those units where they stop answering to IP control until the interface is cycled or a hard power down happens. It's happened twice in a couple of years on my own X7900...
 

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BTW I know you've done a fair bit of JVC automation and I'm sure you've seen the occasional state the IP control interface gets into on those units where they stop answering to IP control until the interface is cycled or a hard power down happens. It's happened twice in a couple of years on my own X7900...
Hasn't happened to me on any JVC device (yet), however has happened on my Anthem. I since added 100ms delays between all IP commands and it's been solid for several months. I get what you guys are saying about possible added complexities, but come on ethernet and networking in general is a technology that is super baked at this point and well established. IP control is just a requirement now for any equipment I get.
 
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