[Karl Maga]

I think we need more professional comparisons to make a conclusion... Stayed tuned for Javs compare...

I’m convinced I already know how that will turn out. He’s already tipped his hand, and he’s waiting for some reason; updated code, if I understand correctly. He seems quite knowledgeable, so I don’t doubt his ability to affect the results.

Aside from a specific use case that one or the other doesn’t service, I think it’s nit picking as to which one is “better”. I’d be happy to own either.

 

[Javs]

I’m convinced I already know how that will turn out. He’s already tipped his hand, and he’s waiting for some reason; updated code, if I understand correctly. He seems quite knowledgeable, so I don’t doubt his ability to affect the results.

Aside from a specific use case that one or the other doesn’t service, I think it’s nit picking as to which one is “better”. I’d be happy to own either.

I use Madvr on the PC.

I'm also currently arguably its biggest critic. I definitely will not be holding back if I see something which turns out to be better on one vs the other.

 

[Karl Maga]

I use Madvr on the PC.

I'm also currently arguably its biggest critic. I definitely will not be holding back if I see something which turns out to be better on one vs the other.

I’m confident you’ll find the differences. But I don’t look for the details as much as you (and others) do, so I simply wallow in the end results and remind myself how lucky I am. I might notice some of the things if you were in the room to point them out, but I get distracted by the content.

 

[Javs]

I’m confident you’ll find the differences. But I don’t look for the details as much as you (and others) do, so I simply wallow in the end results and remind myself how lucky I am. I might notice some of the things if you were in the room to point them out, but I get distracted by the content.

Well then you are one of the lucky ones.

It's important to remember to switch off and enjoy the show so to speak.

 

[Karl Maga]

Well then you are one of the lucky ones.

It's important to remember to switch off and enjoy the show so to speak.

It’s critical for the details folks to do their scrutiny and criticism, it’s a necessary part of the process to improve performance. I appreciate it, because I enjoy the results. A lot.

 

[hockyAVS]

Again, the only people I typically hear complaints from are those that just don't seem to feel that they have to actually learn the product and just want to put as minimal an effort as possible into it. And this applies to a lot of dealers, installer and even calibrators out there. Sometimes you have to do a little work to get great results.

Well, what´s wrong with a product that can be both installed by an end-user to get a really pleasing image, but also being tweaked by a professional to go beyond that to get the remaining potential?

When you´re saying it takes 2 seconds to setup for an anamorphic lens in the Lumagen, then that it because you have potentially done that dozens or even hundreds of times.
When i had a Lumagen here for testing, i was pointed to a hundred pages document just for starters (yes, i agree this document covers a lot of basics that are not Lumagen specific)...

 

[hockyAVS]

If the Extreme is so comparable, or in some cases hasn't done as well, why should one think that the Pro would be more up to the task?

Frankly speaking, if you just compare the as-is-functionality, the Extreme is not giving you much that justifies the price difference to the Pro.
Buying the Extreme is a bet into the future. You get the option of additional functionality like geometry correction or frame interpolation for instance. But this added functionality is not there yet, and i´ve got full understanding for people not taking into account what they might get in the future but just looking what it´s there right now.
But in fact, we´re selling a lot more Extremes than Pros, so there seem to be more people putting trust into madVR labs than some people here in the thread are thinking.

A big factor in a buying decision for a product is how it appeals to you. And this "appeal" often isn´t objective.
Obviously, there are people appealed by what Lumagen stands for, but also a growing number of people appealed by the newbie.

 

[bobof]

Well, what´s wrong with a product that can be both installed by an end-user to get 90% perfection, but also being tweaked by a professional to get the remaining 10%?

Put that random number generator back in the box!

 

[hockyAVS]

Put that random number generator back in the box!

Haha, done, Sir!

 

[MDesigns]

No, @Javs , the Envy Pro is DOUBLE the price of the Lumagen Pro. I paid just over $5K recently for a new Lumagen Pro (4 input/2 output model, which I think lists for ~$6K). The Envy Pro lists for $10K. Can you buy it for half off? Doubt it.

Shouldn't compare street pricing with list prices. Has the Envy Pros list price jumped that much from the original ~6-7k$ ? I thought it was about the same as the cheapest Lumagen which is more like $7k.

The Envy Pro has only 1 input and 1 output. Is that right? Is that a joke?! You don’t want to run the video through a receiver, as it definitely degrades the image (I tried it with my Denon 8500 and I can confirm that even with all processing Off, the image suffers when routing it through another component). So you want your VP to act as your HDMI input switch too.

My Marantz has been flawless with switching and doesn't degrade image quality. I wouldn't want another switching unit.

MadVR charges for updates on this model, whereas Lumagen does not. HUGE plus for the Lumagen.

MadVR charges for future hardware updates. I don't think Lumagen offers free hardware updates, or what do you mean? Software updates are free in both.

The Envy Pro doesn’t offer “highlight recovery“ for 4K60 sources. The Lumagen Pro does.

And Mad rates the Pro as only 4/5 starts (whatever that means!) for DTM on 4K60 content. And there are other limitations to the Envy Pro that the Lumagen Pro offers.
I hate how MadVR is limitIng features based on the model. Like “Insane” mode (whatever that means) is only available on the Extreme model. Looks like they are deliberately throttling back the Pro to upsell the Extreme.

There is a hardware difference between Pro and Extreme. Extreme has more powerful GPU etc, so I don't think its any deliberately throttling. Also I think there has been issues reported here with how Lumagen handles 4K60 content and Lumagen doesn't have any special "highlight recovery" anyway so you can ignore that from the comparison.

And for the record, I don't have either nor the money to buy these. Just interested and following for the tech.

 

[DLCPhoto]

Frankly speaking, if you just compare the as-is-functionality, the Extreme is not giving you much that justifies the price difference to the Pro.
Buying the Extreme is a bet into the future. You get the option of additional functionality like geometry correction or frame interpolation for instance. But this added functionality is not there yet, and i´ve got full understanding for people not taking into account what they might get in the future but just looking what it´s there right now.

I think this is an extremely pertinent post, and the bolded part explains precisely why I went with the Extreme. Deciding between this and the Lumagen was a tough one for me, as I'm quite sure I'd be perfectly happy with either. Their relative performance will likely go back and forth in coming weeks and months, as each optimizes their firmware, so the question of which one is currently 'better' is not especially useful (to me at least).

So I'm placing a bet on what the Extreme will bring to the table in the coming months. While I can deal with the mild barrel distortion I have with the DCR, being at the lower limit of throw distance, it would be nice to be able to get rid of it. Similarly, I look forward to what the Envy's motion options will bring. Throw in other AI-based algorithms, and I'm hopeful that the Envy will continue to improve an already stellar image.

I watched the new Mulan on Disney+ last night, not even on disc, and was mesmerized by the picture quality. The sharpness, colors, the HDR rendition, all combine to produce an almost '3d' like image at times. And just for the record, I'm not thinking or claiming that this is better than what I could achieve with the Lumagen, as I don't have one to make that comparison. I'm just thrilled with what I'm experiencing, and hoping that my "bet" will pay additional dividends down the road.

 

[upuppp]

will it improve 4K60FPS?
will it come in HDMI 2.1?
can improve internet access line? Or just HDMI
displayPort?
what does Intel have to do with the device? Intel manufactures processors

 

[blake]

Interested in the barrel distortion piece. I assume neither the Lumagen nor Envy can fix this at present. Is this something one of these video processor is more likely to be able to adjust / correct in the future ? Not sure if FPGA vs GPU technology is more apt to correct this type of distortion (which I would likely face if adding a paladin dcr - at minimum throw or less).

 

[hockyAVS]

Interested in the barrel distortion piece. I assume neither the Lumagen nor Envy can fix this at present. Is this something one of these video processor is more likely to be able to adjust / correct in the future ? Not sure if FPGA vs GPU technology is more apt to correct this type of distortion (which I would likely face if adding a paladin dcr - at minimum throw or less).

Madhsi (the developer of the Envy) is currently working on the geometry correction to correct these kind of distortion. So it should be available soon for the Envy.
Regarding Lumagen: I was in contact with Jim a couple of months ago and he told me that they have no plans to implement this kind of functionality into the Lumagen. He said there´s very little demand for such a functionality (which i don´t understand, we´ve got a couple of customers who would love this) and that it would eat up performance that he would prefer to spend otherwise.

 

[EVH78]

Interested in the barrel distortion piece. I assume neither the Lumagen nor Envy can fix this at present. Is this something one of these video processor is more likely to be able to adjust / correct in the future ? Not sure if FPGA vs GPU technology is more apt to correct this type of distortion (which I would likely face if adding a paladin dcr - at minimum throw or less).

I have asked Jim quite a few times over the years for this feature too, but he has no plans at current and for the future. When I asked Madshi to implement it to the Envy Pro he said unfortunately that they reserved it exclusively to the Extreme though the Pro would have been capable of handling it. So I was giving the Envy Pro a pass.

 

[Mike Garrett]

Madhsi (the developer of the Envy) is currently working on the geometry correction to correct these kind of distortion. So it should be available soon for the Envy.
Regarding Lumagen: I was in contact with Jim a couple of months ago and he told me that they have no plans to implement this kind of functionality into the Lumagen. He said there´s very little demand for such a functionality (which i don´t understand, we´ve got a couple of customers who would love this) and that it would eat up performance that he would prefer to spend otherwise.

You do know that geometry correction will most likely come at a cost to resolution.

 

[dlinsley]

You do know that geometry correction will most likely come at a cost to resolution.

When we were talking about this in the Lumagen thread, maybe a year ago, @bobof had a good idea to maybe just offer a variably curved mask. You end up with a small number of pixels cropped, but for something like the DCR lens that seems like a great solution. I'm at almost min-throw (1.42) with the DCR but have to look at the 16:9 edge to see any curve. I otherwise don't notice it with video content at any aspect ratio.

 

[hockyAVS]

You do know that geometry correction will most likely come at a cost to resolution.

Yeah, sure. After all, it´s some sort of scaling.
But with all video processing, the expectation is that the processed image looks better than the unprocessed image.
With 4K resolution and a good algorithm, you should get a geometrical correct image without a noticeable loss of image content (as long as you prefer to watch movies over test patterns).

When we were talking about this in the Lumagen thread, maybe a year ago, @bobof had a good idea to maybe just offer a variably curved mask. You end up with a small number of pixels cropped, but for something like the DCR lens that seems like a great solution. I'm at almost min-throw (1.42) with the DCR but have to look at the 16:9 edge to see any curve. I otherwise don't notice it with video content at any aspect ratio.

This is what you´re doing anyway when using a physical mask. You zoom out to the extend that the distortion ends up in the mask. Currently, i´m doing it that way in my own install.
That might a solution for smaller screen and/or slight degree of curving, but with a larger screen and more curve, this isn´t a feasable option.

 

[bobof]

This is what you´re doing anyway when using a physical mask. You zoom out to the extend that the distortion ends up in the mask. Currently, i´m doing it that way in my own install.
That might a solution for smaller screen and/or slight degree of curving, but with a larger screen and more curve, this isn´t a feasable option.

What's the reason for it not being feasible - the amount of distortion in the image is judged too great?

 

[hockyAVS]

What's the reason for it not being feasible - the amount of distortion in the image is judged too great?

Yes.