[*Mori*]

Has the DTM algo improved on madVR, it's been quite a while since I followed this thread. Another interest of mine has been the edge enhancement without introducing noise, MadVR has done a good job in this area. Furthermore, I do like the highlight and shadow recovery ability too. Can all the algos run in parallel?

I am very sensitive to sharpness except in areas where DOF effects are intentional and, I must admit, I did like the upscaling refinements on MadVR. Not sure if Madshi looked into LCE.

MadVR was the same for about a year. Then this version (build 113) was replaced by lots of newer versions last winter. The latest is build 130 now. Since these test builds are often not stable I had bought a new PC for just to test these test builds. IMO there was so much progress achieved that I could not go back to 113 anymore. So for a long time IMO it did not matter whether you were using an Envy or a HTPC since the algorithm were the same. However it was only a question of time that this progress would also find its way into the Envy. I hear that the marketing term is DTM 2.0.
Tomorrow I am going to visit a friend of mine who has an Envy Extreme. I am curious to see whether that gap is now filled again. He told me that he is very pleased with DTM 2.0. So I exspect that differences in picture quality between a PC and an Envy remain not significant (unlike build 113 vs 130 which is very significant IMO).

BTW I had found that "edge enhancement" in the upscaling section of madVR actually produced noise.

Coming back to that friend of mine owing an Envy. When he bought it about a year ago (after comparing it against a Radiance Pro) he decided to go for an Envy Pro (and not the Extreme). He asked me about my opinion at that time so I guess I was partly responsible for that. Basically he did not regret to go for the Envy because of the excellent upscaling and TM. Btw he could also use both highlight and shadow recovery at the same time. Nevertheless upgraditis attacked him regularly making him wonder whether he would go even one step futher by upgrading to the Extreme. So he finally bought the Extreme for his Sony VW870 and did comparisons between the 2 versions. After 2 weeks I asked him whether he could now profit by the additional processing power of the Eny Extreme resulting in better picture quality. His short answer: no, picture quality was identical but at least he got now his peace of mind. 😃

So he just recently sold the Envy Pro to a guy who wanted to test the Envy Pro against his Radiance Pro. After 1 week of testing on his Sony VW790 that guy reported then to be super happy with the Envy Pro. After 1 week of comparisons he decided the Lumagen Radiance Pro to let go and keep the Envy. Main reasons for his decision: Envy is in his eyes better in upscaling, much easier to operate, better 3D LUT results and the remote is not only IR. Lumagens Radiance Pro sole (only) advantage in his view: tons of different settings options. He said that it took him weeks to get a good picture with the Radiance. However at the end the picture quality of the Lumagen still can not match - again his opinion - what the Envy did in a very short time. However he also said that Lumagen's DTM is quite good as well... interestingly he did not spot and complain about any picture noise issues.

 

[Javs]

I had customers that ran some of their PC’s for almost a decade, and even then they sometimes switched simply because thay could no longer get support contracts. PC’s are very reliable, and as you described, Trinnov and MadVR have further refined their use case.

My current PC (i7 4790K) has been on for literally 7 years non stop. I dont turn it off save for restarts etc. Still running perfect, hardware is reliable.

 

[Sam Ash]

MadVR was the same for about a year. Then this version (build 113) was replaced by lots of newer versions last winter. The latest is build 130 now. Since these test builds are often not stable I had bought a new PC for just to test these test builds. IMO there was so much progress achieved that I could not go back to 113 anymore. So for a long time IMO it did not matter whether you were using an Envy or a HTPC since the algorithm were the same. However it was only a question of time that this progress would also find its way into the Envy. I hear that the marketing term is DTM 2.0.
Tomorrow I am going to visit a friend of mine who has an Envy Extreme. I am curious to see whether that gap is now filled again. He told me that he is very pleased with DTM 2.0. So I exspect that differences in picture quality between a PC and an Envy remain not significant (unlike build 113 vs 130 which is very significant IMO).

BTW I had found that "edge enhancement" in the upscaling section of madVR actually produced noise.

Coming back to that friend of mine owing an Envy. When he bought it about a year ago (after comparing it against a Radiance Pro) he decided to go for an Envy Pro (and not the Extreme). He asked me about my opinion at that time so I guess I was partly responsible for that. Basically he did not regret to go for the Envy because of the excellent upscaling and TM. Btw he could also use both highlight and shadow recovery at the same time. Nevertheless upgraditis attacked him regularly making him wonder whether he would go even one step futher by upgrading to the Extreme. So he finally bought the Extreme for his Sony VW870 and did comparisons between the 2 versions. After 2 weeks I asked him whether he could now profit by the additional processing power of the Eny Extreme resulting in better picture quality. His short answer: no, picture quality was identical but at least he got now his peace of mind. 😃

So he just recently sold the Envy Pro to a guy who wanted to test the Envy Pro against his Radiance Pro. After 1 week of testing on his Sony VW790 that guy reported then to be super happy with the Envy Pro. After 1 week of comparisons he decided the Lumagen Radiance Pro to let go and keep the Envy. Main reasons for his decision: Envy is in his eyes better in upscaling, much easier to operate, better 3D LUT results and the remote is not only IR. Lumagens Radiance Pro sole (only) advantage in his view: tons of different settings options. He said that it took him weeks to get a good picture with the Radiance. However at the end the picture quality of the Lumagen still can not match - again his opinion - what the Envy did in a very short time. However he also said that Lumagen's DTM is quite good as well... interestingly he did not spot and complain about any picture noise issues.

Mori, thank you very much indeed for the excellent, detailed and informative response. I enjoyed reading it and it was nice to get your friend's views too.

Thank you for highlighting the noise issue pertaining to scaling. I suppose if the edge enhancement is decent and the grain induced by the scaling is not visible from seated distance then it would be acceptable from a practical standpoint. However, as a personal preference, I would apply subtle edge enhancement to native 4K content too, I would presume that this would be free from any noise or the noise would be absolutely minimum and invisible from seated distance. In addition and parallel to that, a hint of fine-tunable local contrast enhancement would be nice. Who knows, we might even see DEALCE (Dynamic Edge and Local Contrast Enhancement) via an AI recipe. Hey Madshi, that is my intellectual property, we can discuss royalty rates 😁

I had no idea about DTM 2.0, it's good to know that it is an improvement over the last version.

Your friend's perception in regards to the comparison between the Pro and the Extreme is interesting, any area of video processing where he or you thought that the Extreme had a slight edge? In terms of the highlight and shadow recovery, the Extreme has an 'insane' setting which is not available on the Pro. I'm not sure how much of a difference this makes visually. Did your friend get to try it?

 

[G-Rex]

It is also of note that most people who go with the Extreme do so for the following reasons: a more robust future upgrade path (hardware), future algorithms supported only on the Extreme and/or at higher settings, and a longer warranty. The Extreme will 100% get the upgraded hdmi 2.1 input board (not sure if there has been a commitment to such with the Pro). As of now, they perform in a similar manner.

 

[Die Zwei]

As of now, they perform in a similar manner.

As we speak, the geometry correction is currently in testing and this is announced only for the Extreme. So starting with this feature going live, paths between the both models will split up.

 

[blake]

As we speak, the geometry correction is currently in testing and this is announced only for the Extreme. So starting with this feature going live, paths between the both models will split up.

Is Lumagen planning any geometry correction feature , ex to deal with barrel distortion from a dcr lens ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sam Ash]

As we speak, the geometry correction is currently in testing and this is announced only for the Extreme. So starting with this feature going live, paths between the both models will split up.

Any idea in regards to the scope of the geometry feature?

 

[Die Zwei]

Any idea in regards to the scope of the geometry feature?

I shared some basic info in the Envy owner´s thread.
Do you have some specific questions?

 

[Sam Ash]

Is Lumagen planning any geometry correction feature , ex to deal with barrel distortion from a dcr lens ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I suppose that would really help, especially for those that are using the DCR without a masking screen. For example, when viewing flat content on a scope screen, the left and right vertical edges of the image would need to absolutely straight otherwise it would make me uncomfortable.

 

[Die Zwei]

Is Lumagen planning any geometry correction feature , ex to deal with barrel distortion from a dcr lens ?

We spoke with Jim from Lumagen about such a feature and he said they don´t because of lack of demand so he wanted to save the required processing power for other features.
But that´s a couple of months ago, i don´t know if there´s news in this area.

 

[Aaron Toulmin]

Just thought I would add my observation, I have been using MadVR with a nvidia 3070 for a while and just tried the lumagen.

first thing I noticed was a much “cleaner” image with the lumagen compared to MadVR.

MadVR is great but I have noticed less noise in the image with the lumagen.

 

[woofer]

Just thought I would add my observation, I have been using MadVR with a nvidia 3070 for a while and just tried the lumagen.

first thing I noticed was a much “cleaner” image with the lumagen compared to MadVR.

MadVR is great but I have noticed less noise in the image with the lumagen.

Mirrors my observations 100% !!

 

[woofer]

I think once you get the Lumagen set up and configured optimally you will find quite a few noticeable improvements over madVR..

 

[Craig Peer]

I'm guessing the 12 bit pipeline improvements will make the Lumagen better still !

 

[mightyhuhn]

12 they don't use 16/32?

 

[Die Zwei]

Hi guys,

i just received a new private test build with geometry correction V2. Only had the time for a quick look, but image sharpness is back to normal (madshi used a very single algorithm in the first build) and aspect ratio switching is as smooth as before (there was some debug code in the previous build that created a hickup while switching).
It needs a few days more for testing and then it can be pushed as a new beta build soon.

Then, NLS is next on the roadmap for you Lumagen guys who are crazy about it.

 

[Craig Peer]

Hi guys,

i just received a new private test build with geometry correction V2. Only had the time for a quick look, but image sharpness is back to normal (madshi used a very single algorithm in the first build) and aspect ratio switching is as smooth as before (there was some debug code in the previous build that created a hickup while switching).
It needs a few days more for testing and then it can be pushed as a new beta build soon.

Then, NLS is next on the roadmap for you Lumagen guys who are crazy about it.

They will make me watch movies with NLS and motion enhancement settings that cause the SOE if I wind up in Hell!

 

[mightyhuhn]

a feature that clearly breaks the creators intent was close to unthinkable just a couple of years back for madVR.

 

[martR]

Mirrors my observations 100% !!

Well, sometimes i think where all this negative comments comes from... really i dont get it... and repeating it at every change they get
I have the oposite experiance and opinion.

My friend has almost the same set up as mine and on video it is exactly the same only he has a Lumagen Radiance Pro and i have a madVR Envy.
Every time we are going to watch a movie at my place he can't believe how good it looks and how easy the set up menu is and every time we and our friends watch a movie at his place the picture quality just isn't as stunning as the Envy produce.
Since the dtm 2.0 software is available the Envy has made a big step and also my friend agree that is a bit better then his Lumagen is.
In the past it was close but now since a month the Envy has made a step forwards in compare of the Lumagen.
And about the 'noise' comments, what noise? Non so ever here!!!
I really don't get these statements

 

[Die Zwei]

Well, i think we reached a state now where both the Lumagen and the Envy users are just happily enjoying their devices in their homes (well, Lumagen owners a lot longer than Envy owers ) and that interested buyers can just make a buying decision based on the feature set and personal preference. Ideally, have them test both of them before that to see it with their own eyes.
IMHO this thread has become more or less obsolete over time.