AVS Forum banner

1361 - 1380 of 1421 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,613 Posts
could be the issue on panasonic TV using pure direct mode to get an untouched image forces 3:2 judder could be the same here.
thus making the function pointless.
When I use it, it says it is outputting 24hz at 48hz, because it doubles the image. Just how the projector works. Should look identical to 24hz at 24hz for DLP because of how the mirrors work and so on. It is definitely not saying 60hz. It's pure "movie" mode because it displays 24hz movies correctly, in theory.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,802 Posts
Thanks, I will try the smooth motion idea to compare.

I think we are miscommunicating about the processor situation. I don't have a video processor yet. What I am saying is that my projector has an unusual way of doing things, which is that it disables all processing for 24hz sources no matter what. Even if you don't have an external processor, it still disables the internal processor. This will explain it 100%. To play 24hz sources on my projector natively, you enable "puremovie mode" on the projector. And this is what "puremovie mode" does, taken from the projector manufacturer's website.



Could this cause a motion issue?
Have you tested all the other settings and compared them?
 

·
aka jfinnie
Joined
·
5,431 Posts
When I use it, it says it is outputting 24hz at 48hz, because it doubles the image. Just how the projector works. Should look identical to 24hz at 24hz for DLP because of how the mirrors work and so on. It is definitely not saying 60hz. It's pure "movie" mode because it displays 24hz movies correctly, in theory.
I guess you need to think in detail how DLP works.
It's single chip, so the mirrors aren't changing state 24 or 48 times per second, hence some of the comment from Sim2 about it doing the minimum it has to - it can't display the image at 24fps on the DLP chip (or even 48fps). They have to change state every single cycle of the LED illumination to show the different colours, which is more often than once every frame! You'd have to use a HFR camera to work out exactly what is being displayed and how often the mirrors are changing, and whether the pixel data is staying identical for the whole 1/24 second, or whether there is some blending of the pixel values which might be contributing to your perceived issues with it.
For it to be doing 48Hz with RGB cycling of the LEDs equivalent to a 6x colour wheel, the DMD mirror would be changing at 144Hz.

It's either outputting the same pixels for 1/24 of a second, or it isn't. If it is, then the motion issues are in the source content, If it isn't, then the projector is adding them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,613 Posts
Have you tested all the other settings and compared them?
There are only two modes, puremovie which turns off all processing, and puremotion which uses frame interpolation "low" "mid" or "high." However there is an option to use puremotion mode, but "off." So it's not in puremovie mode, it's in puremotion mode, except without the puremotion enabled. So I have no idea if that defaults back to puremovie mode or what. But I noticed no difference.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,613 Posts
You'd have to use a HFR camera to work out exactly what is being displayed and how often the mirrors are changing, and whether the pixel data is staying identical for the whole 1/24 second, or whether there is some blending of the pixel values which might be contributing to your perceived issues with it.
Do you know the cheapest recommended camera that could do this? I do want to get to the bottom of this once and for all because Ive been having the same motion issues with a lot of displays, but not every one, for like 10 years, and I thought I had figured out it was simply that I didn't like "sample and hold" but now it seems like there are still unknown factors I need to determine so that I don't have to have this experience for the rest of my life every time I buy a new display.

For it to be doing 48Hz with RGB cycling of the LEDs equivalent to a 6x colour wheel, the DMD mirror would be changing at 144Hz.
This is either a definite yes, with room to spare, or a definite no. The projector cannot do 144 frames per second period. But the actual DMD mirrors, on all DLP projectors, turn off and on every 0.02 milliseconds. So those switch not just at 144hz, but, I dont know the exact calculation, but 1000hz let's say.

It's either outputting the same pixels for 1/24 of a second, or it isn't. If it is, then the motion issues are in the source content, If it isn't, then the projector is adding them.
@bdht would probably know this. I think it should be but he would know. I think he's really these days though so if anyone else knows either, that's great too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,802 Posts
There are only two modes, puremovie which turns off all processing, and puremotion which uses frame interpolation "low" "mid" or "high." However there is an option to use puremotion mode, but "off." So it's not in puremovie mode, it's in puremotion mode, except without the puremotion enabled. So I have no idea if that defaults back to puremovie mode or what. But I noticed no difference.
That seems odd.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,613 Posts
That seems odd.
I definitely notice a difference when frame interpolation is enabled, but when it's in puremotion mode (frame interpolation mode), but "off," it looks the same as puremovie mode. So maybe it's the same, otherwise maybe they would have titled it as a third mode? 1. "Puremovie mode" to turn off all processing, 2. "puremotion" for frame interpolation, and 3. a mode with no frame interpolation but processing enabled. But there are only two modes, it's just one of them you can use at the same time as the one main feature of that mode, the frame interpolation, is "off."

So I'm not sure what to make of it either. I am testing more though so hopefully something will end up working well for me.
 

·
aka jfinnie
Joined
·
5,431 Posts
Do you know the cheapest recommended camera that could do this? I do want to get to the bottom of this once and for all because Ive been having the same motion issues with a lot of displays, but not every one, for like 10 years, and I thought I had figured out it was simply that I didn't like "sample and hold" but now it seems like there are still unknown factors I need to determine so that I don't have to have this experience for the rest of my life every time I buy a new display.

This is either a definite yes, with room to spare, or a definite no. The projector cannot do 144 frames per second period. But the actual DMD mirrors, on all DLP projectors, turn off and on every 0.02 milliseconds. So those switch not just at 144hz, but, I dont know the exact calculation, but 1000hz let's say.
I don't think you'll find a camera that will show you everything that is going on at the mirror flip level.
If the DLP projector is single chip and is truly capable of 8 bit colour, then it needs to be able to flip a mirror for only 1/256 of each colour frame time to achieve that 8 bit rendition. If it was at 60fps and you have 3xRGB colours then it has to be able to flip the mirrors:
(2^8)*60*3 = 46080 times a second (around the 0.02ms you mention).

But if there is something funky going on with the frame blending or frame cadence, you don't need to be so fast. A very simple test image should show it at "modest" high frame rates :). You might see quite good results as low as 240fps (so you'd get 10 video frames for each 24p content frame).

I have a Sony ZV1 which will shoot 1000fps. Though it wasn't very cheap - cost about £600 in UK.

These are a couple of examples on the old Sony lounge TV. You can see the camera probably can't very accurately capture the backlight refresh, but it can very well capture frame changes. The rotating bar fades out each segment because the LCD is pretty slow transitioning on this old TV. With motionflow high though you can see clearly the very odd imagined intermediate frames that occur every so often (not every frame!) that it has imagined with motionflow on... if ever there was a good reason for not using it... ;)

I think a few phones now have HFR capability. I don't think you'd want any less than about 960fps to try and look at these sort of things.


Once you're sure exactly what frames and for what time they're being displayed, then you can start working out why you do or don't like particular things. It might be that, for instance, you actually like the motion smoothing stuff that a lot of TVs do, and you're actually objecting to the purer view of the world that your projector might have (I don't know). Or it might be that despite all the blurb the projector is really doing a 3:2 type arrangement even with 24p, and hiding it from you. Without either discussing with someone who is intimate with the design of a particular display (i'm not) or trying to measure yourself, you're shooting largely in the dark.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,613 Posts
Anyone know if the Gennum VXP "trumotion" feature works on 1080p/24 sources or just 1080i?

I see some ppl with 1080p projectors with internal gennum processing attributing good motion on their projectors to "gennum processing," but when I look into buying an external gennum processor to pair with my projector, almost all the interesting features mention "deinterlacing," as if it only works on 1080i signals.

The mystery is why would 1080p projector owners who watch native 1080p content attribute good motion with that content to gennum processing if all gennum does is deinterlace 1080i well and does nothing with 1080p signals?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,613 Posts
What does this Zappiti do?


Shane says it's like lifting a veil off the image. Their webpage also says it improves 3D contrast and depth for 3D viewing...

Curious to learn what it actually does, and if it will improve the image for progressive sources, not just interlaced sources.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,613 Posts
He was referring to the audiocom edition which is the zapitti media player with an upgraded power supply.

Similar to adding a linear power supply to the lumagen. For increased picture and sound quality
So the power supply makes a big difference? I dont want to say the company but I bought a processor from overseas that has a universal power supply inside, but before they sent it, the factory was supposed to switch something to make it plug into a US power outlet without an adapter, but they forgot. And since it's from overseas it was too late to ship it back. But they told me no big deal, you just need a $5 adapter and it will work 100% the same, no loss of quality or features, and that they would refund me $5.

Do you think that's not true?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,000 Posts
So the power supply makes a big difference? I dont want to say the company but I bought a processor from overseas that has a universal power supply inside, but before they sent it, the factory was supposed to switch something to make it plug into a US power outlet without an adapter, but they forgot. And since it's from overseas it was too late to ship it back. But they told me no big deal, you just need a $5 adapter and it will work 100% the same, no loss of quality or features, and that they would refund me $5.

Do you think that's not true?
Any possible benefits of a better power supply are entirely unrelated to your motion issues.
 

·
aka jfinnie
Joined
·
5,431 Posts
Question: what is the difference between keystone, and warping?
Keystone is a very specific adjustment, which assumes perfect optical geometry and a perfectly flat screen, and can just fix the optics not being 100% perpendicular to the screen surface. Some keystone settings - eg JVC - only allow correction in 1 axis (ie projector pointing down or up at screen), whereas others allow correction in 2 axis, so you can also point the projector at the screen from right / left.

Warping as I understand it allows mapping of more complex shapes, and I think are usually used for commercial visualisation installations, maybe combined with edge blending etc. At least that's my understanding, I've never used a warp box.

I thought you'd already bought one?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,613 Posts
Keystone is a very specific adjustment, which assumes perfect optical geometry and a perfectly flat screen, and can just fix the optics not being 100% perpendicular to the screen surface. Some keystone settings - eg JVC - only allow correction in 1 axis (ie projector pointing down or up at screen), whereas others allow correction in 2 axis, so you can also point the projector at the screen from right / left.

Warping as I understand it allows mapping of more complex shapes, and I think are usually used for commercial visualisation installations, maybe combined with edge blending etc. At least that's my understanding, I've never used a warp box.

I thought you'd already bought one?
Yes I have a geobox with warping. The reason I asked about this is I was looking at a different processor for different features, but was wondering if it could also replace the geobox's warping to save money. If I dont need the geobox for warping, I can sell it, get a much cheaper 3d demux box, and use the warping from the other processor. It's expensive to have both, and this is the only feature I need the geobox for meanwhile the other processor has multiple features I would use, so I was hoping the other processor could just totally replace the geobox's warping. But it doesn't have it, what it has is just "vertical keystone." So I was confused if warping is just a horizontal version of keystone, but keystone is vertical, or what the difference is. I know what the geobox can do, all sorts of image warping, but keystone is a form of moving the image also, so I just wondered when is it called keystone, and when is it called warping. I read comments on the forum that warping was just a more powerful version of keystone, so where do you draw the line or change the definition, etc.

I wasnt sure is it a qualitative difference, or a directional difference (keystone = vertical, warping = vertical and horizontal), or what.
 

·
aka jfinnie
Joined
·
5,431 Posts
Yes I have a geobox with warping. The reason I asked about this is I was looking at a different processor for different features, but was wondering if it could also replace the geobox's warping to save money. If I dont need the geobox for warping, I can sell it, get a much cheaper 3d demux box, and use the warping from the other processor. It's expensive to have both, and this is the only feature I need the geobox for meanwhile the other processor has multiple features I would use, so I was hoping the other processor could just totally replace the geobox's warping. But it doesn't have it, what it has is just "vertical keystone." So I was confused if warping is just a horizontal version of keystone, but keystone is vertical, or what the difference is. I know what the geobox can do, all sorts of image warping, but keystone is a form of moving the image also, so I just wondered when is it called keystone, and when is it called warping. I read comments on the forum that warping was just a more powerful version of keystone, so where do you draw the line or change the definition, etc.

I wasnt sure is it a qualitative difference, or a directional difference (keystone = vertical, warping = vertical and horizontal), or what.
Having looked at the geobox manual, they call it 2x2 corner adjustment, which is the equivalent of a horizontal and vertical keystone.

I dont see why you need a warping box personally unless the projectors you are using have shocking variance between their lenses. I would have thought 2 projectors can be aligned over the top of each other using no keystone and just slight lens shift to a high level. Of course, whether they stay aligned over time is a completely different matter, but that can't be helped by a warp box either.

Generally if you're having to use warping and / or keystone adjustment you're "losing" - they're things you should nearly never need in a domestic setting. I'd probably level that at A-lenses needing corrections. too, though I see the Envy has added pincushion correction recently seemingly to a high standard, and I'm in danger of incurring the wrath of the A-lens crowd :)
 
1361 - 1380 of 1421 Posts
Top