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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
From WSR Coming Products:

Vidikron HD2 DLP Proj.w/Vidikron ViViX Scaling, Deinterlacing and Film/Video Detection

1000L

900:1 CR

$10,000
 

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Wanman, ONLY 10k? :)
 

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Tom,


Considering that the MSRP for many of the more popular (e.g. Sharp, Marantz, Seleco) are pricing their HD2 showstoppers at +20% above what this product is going for I would think my statement, "No wonder its only $10K" is quite appropriiate.


I have not yet seen the most recent issue of WSR (will look for it today) and read it for myself, but if Vidikron can only get 900:[email protected],000L as Robert forwarded then its a good thing they priced it below the competition.


If you think my comment was to trivialize $10K then you got me wrong. I am talking fantasy-numbers as MSRP is only how a manufacturer 'thinks' its product is worth, and in this example not worth too much, hehe.


Now, if it turns out to be an Alan-back killer-product then ... I'm still not going to consider it until I see it in action, either in a demo in someone's real home (in-home demo, imagine that!) or find a dealer that is capable of setting up a DLP projector (not found one yet).


You can read from this URL and draw your own conclusions, or read the following, which I pirated for you:

Two new products were announced under the Vidikron brand name. The first is a 16:9 DLP projector (model name to be determined) that uses the Texas Instruments HD2 chipset. Runco has incorporated its proprietary ViViX technology for video scaling, inverse 3:2 pulldown, and film/video detection. This projector includes a DVI interface, and has a rated contrast ratio of 900:1 and brightness of 1,000 ANSI lumens. The suggested retail price is $9,995.


If someone could dig up some manufacturer website-located information it would be nice, but the Vidikron is a one-page dealo with the only clicking hyperlink taking you to Runco's website for Runco-only products.
 

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Perhaps Vidikron is just being more honest with their specifications than the rest.


Have you measured the contrast ratio on your screen in your home theater? It is not anywhere near as high as 900:1 especially if your color temperature is in range of what is considered white.
 

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Jim, it would be impossible for me to measure my CR at this present time. I am basing my comments on the results being currently garnered from other HD2 projectors in relation to the measured light output.


BTW, in order for a manufacturer to be honest would mean they have absolutely no marketing department, no out-sourced marketing, etc. When was the last time you found a manufacturer being honest AND to their comparative detriment?
 

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Geez, WanMan, give me a break. All this smug self-righteousness and no one's even seen or measured the thing. Nevermind Jim Burns' skewering which stands nicely on it's own.


If you'd get off your high horse for a moment, you might find it quite interesting from a business perspective that Vidikron is back in the market -- via Runco. This will be an interesting strategic move on Runco's part to watch unfold.
 

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PF, you and TD2 will always give me hell no matter what I say. :)


BTW, if I had a high-horse I would sell it and get my digital projector. Cheers!
 

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Couple of Questions

Who actually makes this projector?

Does Runco actually offer an HD2 under the Runco brand?
 

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MattJ, both are good questions. I did a very brief look at the Runco DLP products and I did not see HD2 (or HD1) being referenced. I also do not know where the Vidikron is being OEMed from. Maybe QQQ, MrWigggles, or Alan can help us out here!?!
 

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If Runco tweaks one of the Marantz or InFocus DLP's that would be quite interesting. If it is a tweaked Sharp 1000, I don't know. I welcome having another competitor in the $10,000 or under category, it might help bring prices down a little. Runco has consistantly made very good products, so why not wait for a review when it hits the street, before dismissing it? They may be giving a real world CR, but who knows.
 

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Runco bought Vidikron to be their future "low priced spread" - yes/no?


Vid's use to be made in Italy by an OEM - but that was 10 years ago.
 

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Some other company (can't remeber the name) purchased the assets of Vidikron and is relaunching there projector business. But Runco purchased the Vidikron name and logo and is using it for a less expensive brand (less than Runco). I think this is correct, please correct me if I got this wrong.


Martin, I agree, the more price pressure on DLPs the better. I recently saw the Sharp 10K at a price lower than I expected this early in the release, and from a U.S. vendor.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by WanMan
PF, you and TD2 will always give me hell no matter what I say. :)
You forgot me :D.


But seriously, as correctly stated above, the Vidikron name is now owned by Runco. The stated business plan is to market Vidikron to a wider body of dealers and perhaps even to mass merchants. I have no idea who is manufacturing the product for Runco/Vidikron.


Re: HD-2 I don't think Runco is shipping HD-2 yet, but they will be soon. I'm not a Runco dealer - that's just what I've heard.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by WanMan
PF, you and TD2 will always give me hell no matter what I say. :)


BTW, if I had a high-horse I would sell it and get my digital projector. Cheers!
not always, once in a blue moon you say something useful
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by QQQ
You forgot me :D.
Yeah, but you have a sense of humor. PF and TD2 don't. I can understand TD2 losing his senses in the you know what fiasco, but PF just hates me so.


Still, I'll keep my position until I see reason to alter it, as I am sure the rest of you will, too. I have admitted previously that I'm a pessimist while the rest of you 'seem' to be optimist.


Too many times people have gotten excited about products and in the end very few have stood out and shined in the long run. Just keeping myself prepared if this one turns out to be another loser. Where is the harm in that? :)
 

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Here is what Runco is doing.


Runco Institutes Cinema Standards Measurement System (CSMS)


Union City, CA…October 2002….In a brash move from the norm, Runco International has abandoned the ANSI-lumen specification and has adapted the foot-Lambert measurement procedure for measuring the light of output of their projectors.


Runco International is once again striving to enhance and broaden the Home TheaterÔ video market by changing the technical specifications of its video displays. Runco is doing this to more realistically reflect the needs of sophisticated consumers concerned with high fidelity HDTV and Digital Film reproduction.


The specification standards that Runco has used in the past were designed for industrial video displays and by default, have been universally used to describe Home Theater products as well. The objectives of good Home Theater video are different than that of Industrial presentations, therefore the specifications that we currently employ, do not convey the proper performance characteristics of what makes a good movie picture or realistic HDTV image.


Why this is necessary:

“We feel that the measurement criteria associated with light output of fixed-pixel technology specifications is inappropriate for Home Theater applications,†says Sam Runco, CEO and found of Runco International. “The traditional ANSI lumen method for measuring brightness can be an accurate quantitative measurement but does not describe the quality of an image for Home Theater. We have decided to use a measurement system that is a true representation of how bright an image is in reference to something everyone can understand—a movie theater.â€


Runco further stated that, “By using the foot-Lambert measurement specification, we can communicate to customers that the image in their Home Theater will be 1.5 times brighter than the image at their local cinema, which is more meaningful than trying to explain how bright 1000 ANSI lumens will appear on a 8‘ wide screen.â€

Over please



About foot-Lamberts:

This method of measurement, called foot-Lambert, is a measurement related to the brightness of a particular image and is equal to 1 lumen per square foot of screen surface. A Spectral Radiometer is required to perform this measurement. The SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) specification for a film-type movie theater is 16 foot-Lamberts of brightness. Movie theaters typically even with their very large screen surfaces and high wattage lamps in their film projectors, struggle to achieve this brightness specification. Since the screen size is much smaller for Home Theater, it is possible to achieve 16 foot-Lamberts and most of the time much higher brightness level with Runco projectors.


How this affects the consumer:

The purpose for this change in specifications standard is to make the information on our spec sheets relatable to the consumer. The change to foot-Lamberts will make for an easy comparison between how bright the average movie screen is in relation to our projectors. We will include the color temperature at which our light output was measured. This is critical because increasing color temperature increases brightness and contrast ratio. Unfortunately an over exaggerated color temperature ruins color fidelity in the type of picture necessary for Home Theater. Runco’s changes in video display specifications makes it possible for the consumer to easily relate the picture performance of our products to that of the local film cinema.


Home Theater is still evolving:

When asked about their departure from the ANSI Lumen method adopted by the industry, Chuck Turigliatto, Vice President of Sales and Marketing answered, “The Home Theater industry is still a ‘work in progress’ and as one of its creators, we at Runco view ourselves as the guardians of this industry. When we feel strongly that something is incorrect or needs a more appropriate direction, we will actually use Runco as a platform to initiate that change for the whole industry. The testing methods that have been used came from an entirely different industry and were used in Home Theater more by default than by adoption.â€


Projection light output basics:

n The projector outputs a fixed amount of light

n As screen size increases, foot-Lamberts decrease

n Gain on the screen will increase the foot-Lambert reading

n Negative-gain screens used for better black levels will decrease foot-Lambert value

n Doubling the screen diagonal will result in 1/4 the brightness of the smaller sized screen

n A formula can be assigned to every projector to calculate the true foot-Lambert measurement for any screen
 

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Jim:


Please give an example of what the literature might say. How will Runco express this spec in the literature. Yes, I understand footlamberts will be referenced but how will Runco write the spec. Can you give an example? What is the special relevance of "1.5 times as bright as the theater". Is that the "reference" Runco is aiming for? And why not just rate ANSI lumens accurately based on 6500K?


Thanks


p.s. I'm not a Runco "basher". Just want to understand.
 

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Dear Runco "basher", (just kidding)


QQQ,


I do not have all the answers. I do not know what the spec sheets are going to look like. What I get from the press release is that they are going to change the spec to foot-lamberts so the consumer can reference the brightness of a given projector to their local movie theater brightness. After all this is Home Theater and we are emulating movie theaters in our homes. The ANSI lumen spec is for laboratories not Homes or Theaters. It looks like Runco is trying to make it easy for the average person gain a little info about a picture from the written word.
 
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