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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What is your opinion in the quality of music heard between a VINYL LP and CD . I would like to compare basic models - say in the range of $150-300 (not high end ones).

Just thiught of buying a basic Turnatable ........

Cheers

Darrel
 

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Just as each of us see 'color' differently, and thus have different settings on our HDTV's, I believe we all

may 'hear' differently too.


Having a huge vinyl collection....and my share of cd's, I can only say that IMOH, the vinyl analog sounds richer to me than the cd.


I can 'alter/change' the treble/bass to a much higher degree with vinyl, than the cd.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you. Your opening para is quite true and i certainly agree w ith that.


On the subject matter- i like the way you explained in simple language so that i understand rather than a technical explanation.


I myself had a turnatable few years a go and i too felt they were "heard" better.


Can i ask you if these USB type turntables that can convert LP to CD (available fir around 100$ ) makes any difference compared to a traditional turntable of the same price range. (Sometimes the mission shop here sells old model turntables very cheap)
 

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Hi Darrel,


My opinion: It's the guy pushing the knobs.


Translation: The mastering of some vinyl is better in some cases than the mastering of some CD's. I don't know why, but I know that it isn't a shortcoming in the technology of the CD.


Here is why I think so: I have about 200 vinyl albums from the 60's, 70's and 80's, and I've been copying them to digital. If I take my digital masters of the vinyl, and make a CD from them, I cannot hear a difference between the vinyl and the CD copy. Of course, that is not a very scientific test, so take it only as my opinion.



As far as turntables - my opinion is that the quality of the turntable has a big impact in the quality of the sound. It is, after all, a precision mechanical device. All of the USB tables I had looked at were pretty crummy. So I bought an old Sansui SR-838 , which was very highly regarded in its day. The difficulty with shopping for vintage turntables, however, is knowing which are good and which are not.


Disclaimer: Everything stated in this post is just opinion - unusual for me.
 

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I might add it may be what you're accustomed to, to an extent. I grew up with vinyl, have a large collection that dates back to my teens (would date back earlier but my mom & dad gave away my first collection when moving the household when I was 14). Even with good cleaning, care and good playback, vinyl does have issues (pops and clicks) but sometimes nostalgia or just being used to the way I've traditionally heard it makes vinyl sound just fine. Some of the engineering that went into vinyl recordings is better than what goes into pop music mp3 recording on cd's these days.


I listen to both vinyl and digital recordings, but having a manual turntable means I listen to about 15-20 minutes at a shot before I have to pay attention again whereas I can put Pandora on for hours while I occupy myself otherwise. If I'm just kicking back and listening to certain selections not a problem with a turntable, but to use my cd changer, my huge iTunes collection or Pandora streaming for hours at a time...just choices I make for what fits at the time.


I'd agree most of the USB turntables I've seen are pretty crappy. There are ways to digitize from better turntables, too.


My .02...
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you and it is so wonderful to get all these feedback. It helps me.


Mark:- this is for you.


Reading your reply it seems to me that you had converted LP's to CD and that there was no difference when done like that. How did you do the converting? Did you still use this "crappy" type USB ones or did you use other methods?


Loveinthehd- this is for you


I too had been using LP's since about 12 and i'm now 54. Thought of getting back to the old listening habits (at least once in a while because having to change the LP every now and then is a problem).


For Mark and Loveinhd
I have now decided to get a turntable back.


What will you suggest for converting LP's. USB type turntables or old turntable with audio out to PC with the use of software?
 

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Quote:
the vinyl analog sounds richer to me than the cd.

Which it definitely is: richer in all kinds of distortion across the nth harmonics, richer in lower S/N ratio, richer in surface noise...whatever you can throw in, the LP is definitely richer. Just not in fidelity. That is not an opinion, this is fact supported by evidence.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrelsilva  /t/1467858/vinyl-lps-vs-cds#post_23193712


Thank you and it is so wonderful to get all these feedback. It helps me.


Mark:- this is for you.


Reading your reply it seems to me that you had converted LP's to CD and that there was no difference when done like that. How did you do the converting? Did you still use this "crappy" type USB ones or did you use other methods?


Loveinthehd- this is for you


I too had been using LP's since about 12 and i'm now 54. Thought of getting back to the old listening habits (at least once in a while because having to change the LP every now and then is a problem).


For Mark and Loveinhd
I have now decided to get a turntable back.


What will you suggest for converting LP's. USB type turntables or old turntable with audio out to PC with the use of software?

Something like this http://www.amazon.com/ART-USB-Phono-Plus/dp/B000BBGCCI


I'm just a bit older than you btw.


You might check out vinylengine.com. too.
 

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Can't provide you an answer, as I do not have a USB type turntable.


Read other posters here that may provide a better insight You can spend hundreds of dollars on turntables....but also take note of the stylus being used. A turntable and good matching stylus will provide many hours of enjoyment.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSUL  /t/1467858/vinyl-lps-vs-cds#post_23194032


Can't provide you an answer, as I do not have a USB type turntable.


Read other posters here that may provide a better insight You can spend hundreds of dollars on turntables....but also take note of the stylus being used. A turntable and good matching stylus will provide many hours of enjoyment.

Not stylus particularly, it's the cartridge (and its stylus) that is important. Now if you buy a used turntable/cartridge then maybe think about replacing just the stylus. IMHO you need to budget at least several hundred dollars for the turntable and at least another $100 on the cartridge. My old workhorse Technics SL1200MkII looks like it will set you back 1200 plus cartridge these days (I didn't pay anywhere near that new many many years ago
).
 

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Not sure I can fully agree with you....but again, it's how it sounds to each person.


I can say that 'pops' are simply the result of dirt in the record grooves. If you took care of your vinyl, were careful not to scratch them, no fingerprints, etc. and played with a good needle, then you will get wonderful sound reproduction, based also on the amplifier/speaker set up.


I am 61 years old and have almost 100% of every LP and 45 I bought, from the age of 6.


I can play you some Elvis, Little Richard, Rick Nelson records from the 50's and 60's that will stun you.


They called it High Fidelity for a reason.


The so called 'pop/noise' is due to neglect...not a fault of the recording equipment.
 

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Now you devolve and call it a needle? The right cartridge/stylus/tonearm does have a lot to do with preserving your vinyl in the long run. I might disagree with you on any reason to play Elvis, Little Richard or Rick Nelson, though
....well maybe some Elvis and a few Little Richard cuts but Rick Nelson? Yes, records get dirty, another disadvantage over digital/laser discs (altho the laser type discs aren't nearly as indestructible as they were originally marketed). They called it high fidelity because it was an improvement over victrolas, not because vinyl is particularly high fidelity. Record cleaning is a pain, and when you lived with as many roommates as I did over the years your records didn't always stay pristine unfortunately
Also, some vinyl was poorly pressed and came with pops/noise inherent.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraut  /t/1467858/vinyl-lps-vs-cds/0_60#post_23193927


Which it definitely is: richer in all kinds of distortion across the nth harmonics, richer in lower S/N ratio, richer in surface noise...whatever you can throw in, the LP is definitely richer. Just not in fidelity. That is not an opinion, this is fact supported by evidence.

Not only that. Newer albums such as Diana Krall, Rod Stewart, Casiopea, and essentially any vinyl produced in the past 10 years or so were recorded, mixed, and mastered in digital. So why bother buying new vinyl to listen to "analog" recording when everything in the production chain is digital? It's an oxymoron.


As far as analog mastered vinyl? yes I prefer them. I'm fully aware that they are filled with distortion, wow, flutter etc, but I prefer them.
 

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Hi Darrel,


You should probably sit-down for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrelsilva  /t/1467858/vinyl-lps-vs-cds#post_23193712


. . . How did you do the converting?
The hardware was relatively simple for me, as I had a good vintage stereo system to start with. The key ingredients were the Sansui SR-838 turntable and a Sansui CA-2000 preamplifier .


The preamplifier has inputs for two turntables, and also has inputs and outputs for two tape-decks. Since the preamp has good support for turntables, I didn't need an external phono-preamp. Now, remember how stereos back in the cassette / reel-to-reel days supported tape-decks? They allowed you to record anything you happen to be listening to, and you had the choice of monitoring what was going into the tape-deck or what was coming out. I simply hooked up a computer to the tape input/outputs of the preamp as if the computer was a tape-deck.


In the computer, I installed an E-MU 0404 audio card . I used the PCI version, but they also have a USB version that I have not tried. The software allows me to digitally record and playback as if the computer was a tape-deck.


I use a free recording software called Kristal Audio Engine to do the initial recording. It supports recording at 24-bits and 192kHz, but I usually use 96kHz. I record at a higher resolution than the final output so that I have headroom to do post-processing, like removing pops and scratches. I save my masters as FLAC files, either 24-bit/96kHz or 24-bit/192kHz (CD's are 16-bit/44.1kHz).


If I do post-processing, I use Audacity . It is also free, and is also the software the comes with most of the USB turntables on the market. If you don't wish to record at 192kHz, you can do everything with Audacity and forgo Kristal. Beside functions that allow you to remove clicks and pops, Audacity also allows you to normalize the volume, and to output the final product with different formats and resolutions. My final output is one hi-res FLAC file and one 320kbps MP3 file per record side. I use both FLAC and MP3 in order to support all of my different media players.


If I want to be able to access individual songs on a side, or to burn the file to CD, I use a program called CD-Wave to create a CUE file. I used to make CD's for the car, but my current car stereo can read MP3 files from USB-flash-drive, so I don't use CD's at all anymore.


I hope that doesn't sound overly complicated. I don't mean to scare you away, but it can get quite tedious if you try to do a lot at one time.
 

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Lovinthehd, please excuse me as my comments were in response to kraut....and I simply think we can all agree to disagree on things.


I guess I was fortunate to never purchase an LP or 45

with inherent pops/surface noise....now in many 78's

that may be true.


I was indeed fortunate to become friends with several DJ's that worked at KFJZ in Fort Worth, Tx back in the day. during which I never heard a single record played on the radio or during my visits to the station, with any pops/noise.


Is digital an improvement? Likely so, but it does seem strange that vinyl has made a comeback of sorts....perhaps simply a nostalgic trip to the past.
 

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Quote:
Not sure I can fully agree with you....but again, it's how it sounds to each person

You will find it hard to argue with evidence.The sound of an LP might sound better to you the same way tube amps sound better to some who like euphonious distortion.

I have no problem if you prefer that sound - that is something you have to deal with.
Quote:
They called it High Fidelity for a reason.


The so called 'pop/noise' is due to neglect...not a fault of the recording equipment.

Wrong, I have had countless brand new records that right out of the sleeve were noisy, especially classical albums. Has nothing to do with the recording equipment, it has to do with inherent flaws of the vinyl itself and the pressing process.

If you consider a boombox a reproducer of high fidelity sound, then I will agree with you that the LP is a medium of high fideliy storage - ot you just do not know what high fidelity means.




This is a 5kHz fundamental played back on a Thorens TD 125, SME 3 tonearm and a Denon DL 103 cartridge, playing back a signal from a test record produced by Flloyd Toole





This is a 1 kHz signal

And this a 11 kHz signal




You really want to call that High Fidelity? What is your standard?


I own over 2000 records, some are now over 40 years old, a bit older than the record player I own since 1971, a Transcriptors Hydraulic Reference by Mitchell. I play back records, but I am simply pissed off when someone tries to tell me that objectively LP has any kind of sonic benefits.

No, it does not, it might sound better to you, but so will a Harley that still under performs compared to any properly engineered bike.
 

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As I said earlier, I am fortunate not to have purchased defective vinyl.....and yes, you have provided proof of the greatness of digital vs analog.....not an issue for me, but in the big scheme of things, let us enjoy the recordings and go from there.


There are many recordings on vinyl that will never become available on cd's.....just like there are many motion pictures that will never see a dvd or bluray....enjoy what we have, life is too short.
 

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Quote:
Having a huge vinyl collection....and my share of cd's, I can only say that IMOH, the vinyl analog sounds richer to me than the cd.

Your purely subjective statements had to be balanced with a rational approach: what could be behind your feeling that vinyl sounds richer (implying better?) and posting some objective evidence to give the thread starter a chance to not only rely on feelings by an old geezer who wallows in nostalgia - and I am older by three years, so do not shout age discrimination at me - but to look at some distortion measurement.

And do not give me that guff about "you never bought flawed records". I have purchased records from EMC, who produced records of a quality that put any American pop crap to shame and still they usually had some surface noise right out of the package.

Think about the stylus/record groove interface and you explain to me how that means of reproduction will NOT sound flawed based on the simple physics of a stylus riding in a groove:
http://stoneturntable.net/riding-the-groove/
Quote:
For the half a mile or so of record groove per LP side, the stylus must precisely trace abrupt changes in the direction of the undulating groove, sometimes traveling at speeds several times the acceleration of gravity, without ever losing contact with either wall or blurring together the modulations.


Groove friction heats the stylus up to 350 degrees Fahrenheit and the groove vinyl momentarily liquefies each time the stylus passes over it. (This is why one should let a record rest for at least 30 minutes before replaying it, and preferably for 24 hours.)


Even though the cartridge tracking weight is commonly set at only about 1.5 grams, the entire weight is supported on the minute edges of the stylus. As a result, the downforce applied to the groove on a per-square-inch basis is several TONS.

Nothing against your liking old vinyl, that is your choice. What not is your choice is to spread subjective and very likely fictional accounts of your record experience without expecting someone will question those statements.
Quote:
What is your opinion in the quality of music heard between a VINYL LP and CD . I would like to compare basic models - say in the range of $150-300 (not high end ones).

This is the question posted and your answer definitely is not the whole picture. There is no comparison between CD quality (or music from audio files, directly recorded) with an obviously technically and sonically flawed system like vinyl playback.
 
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