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I'll likely buy an HDMI switcher in the future, though only if they sell one that is 4k/60hz 4:4:4 capable. The last switcher I had worked very well and didn't add any perceivable lag.

I use HDMI 5 for PC because I use my PC every day and play most of my games on PC. The PS4 is only turned on once in awhile. If it were opposite, I'd use PS4 on HDMI 5 instead.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that these displays really require a receiver with at least two HDMI outputs to function at their full potential.

I have a Yamaha V799 that is relatively inexpensive and it has two HDMI outputs. I route my PS4 and my Computer through the output number 2 to the Display’s HDMI input 5 for all of my gaming needs. That also gives me 1080p @ 120 FPS for the computer games.

I route all regular Cable/Satellite video through the HDMI output 1 of the receiver into HDMI 1 of the P-series. That gives me the ability to use ARC and to use a completely separate profile in the P-series for TV programs. I typically reduce sharpness to about 13 on that input only.

Then my K8500 UHD Blu ray player luckily has two HDMI outputs. One goes into the receiver the other goes into HDMI 2 on the Display. That gives me the chance to use an entirely separate profile for the Blu rays as well. It also avoids the HDR and HDCP pass-through issues my receiver currently has.

Without the receiver I would have to make quite a few compromises. For as low as $500 it might be a good option for some people.
 

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As for brightness, if you're accustomed to plasma, there is no way the reduced brightness of Clear Action would be problematic. The TV is STILL plenty of bright. As I mentioned on the other thread, even with Clear Action on, I still reduce the contrast setting because default levels of contrast in a dark room are too bright for my eyes, and setting the backlight at 0 doesn't fix that excess brightness. Reduced contrast does. But I have sensitive eyes (I work at night, and tend to do all my business at night). I concede that this is a personal thing. I don't know the eyes of others in terms of their threshold for brightess, but mine is low. I like Plasma-level dimness. Hell, I lowered the brightness on my Plasmas too.
I will agree to disagree on the other things. However, adjusting contrast from its default value with Auto colorspace enabled will cause serious shadow or highlight clipping issues. That is one thing that I would never recommend for any reason at all. By adjusting that setting you are trying to resolve one issue while causing a host of other much more serious issues.
 

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There is no benefit to using HDMI 1-4 with a PS4 or other gaming console. Those ports have longer input lag and no real benefit for a gaming console. The gaming consoles don't do 4K @ 60 FPS 4:4:4(Yet) so those ports aren't going to help you(Yet). Also you should never use noise reduction with a computer or video game console as the source.

If you are hooking a gaming console up to this display it really MUST be on HDMI port 5. That is the proper port for all gaming needs.
I have all of my consoles feed through my AVR, which is 7 years old and only has one HDMI out. As such, I've moved to HDMI 1, as I do a mix of games, TV, and movies. How much worse is the lag from 5 to 1-4? I certainly haven't felt any and I'm coming from a 9G Kuro Elite.
 

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Does anyone know if HDMI 5 with GLL turned on upscales standard resolutions using simple duplication horizontally and vertically? Or does it use interpolation, etc.?

For example, 1920x1080p x 2 or 1280x720p x 3 = 3840x2160p.
 

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I have all of my consoles feed through my AVR, which is 7 years old and only has one HDMI out. As such, I've moved to HDMI 1, as I do a mix of games, TV, and movies. How much worse is the lag from 5 to 1-4? I certainly haven't felt any and I'm coming from a 9G Kuro Elite.
The effects of lag vary considerably. Some games don’t need precise timing or movements. You can get away with 40-50 ms or perhaps more with those games.

I mostly play Black Ops III and when you aim down sights with the rifle you will really notice the effects of input lag. For me anything more than about 25 ms starts to affect my performance in the game.

HDMI 1-4 are said to have an input lag of 34.7 with GLL enabled. That is over my Black Ops III threshold but not over the threshold for other games. However, once you turn GLL off the input lag exceeds 100 ms which is unacceptable for ALL games.

For now we just have to be patient. I would turn GLL on for all games but HDMI 1-4 might be acceptable for certain people with certain games. However, HDMI 5 with GLL is great for absolutely all games.

I have a feeling clear action will be fixed within 1-2 months and then all of these conversations will be behind us.

That being said I still think that the blurring that the Sony TVs do is worse than the line doubling that the P-series currently has without Clear Action or Interpolation enabled.

It still baffles me why someone would choose this blurry mess over what the P-series does.

Sony X850D


Vizio P-series
 

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
I will agree to disagree on the other things. However, adjusting contrast from its default value with Auto colorspace enabled will cause serious shadow or highlight clipping issues. That is one thing that I would never recommend for any reason at all. By adjusting that setting you are trying to resolve one issue while causing a host of other much more serious issues.
Actually, it doesn't. Doing test images on both 0-255 and 16-235, Lowering contrast is just reducing brightness (as long as other settings are proper). I'm still getting 0-255 no problem on all my test images. (well, aside from Active LED crushing the first few squares like 0-4 or so a bit, which happens even at default settings). I can get those squares back easily if I raise gamma to less than 2.2, but then that skews other stuff, so I take the tradeoff.

That's just the issue with Active LED not being 100% accurate, but still a better trade off than turning it off. Of course, reducing contrast lowers the brightness of the white squares a bit, for obvious reasons. That's my intent.

I will concede that I don't use a dimmer setting when watching Blu-Rays. I stick to my day/light room mode for movies. It's with PC monitor use and some video games, that I reduce the light output. White boxes, and lots of bright solid colors on webpages, etc, strain my eyes with default levels of backlight brightness.

Also, since you know I use Clear Action, backlight 0 isn't much different from backlight 12 or so. Contrast is a much better, more easier way to adjust light output when Clear ACtion is engaged. WITHOUT Clear Action, I wall concede that reducing Contrast is not necessary, as Backlight will go pretty dim alone.

I know, it's weird behavior, but that's just the way the TV works.

If you wanna have a go at reducing contrast yourself, I'll attach two images that will allow you to test what reducing contrast is doing.

As for AVR, yeah, it is the best solution outside of a good HDMI switcher, but since I don't use one (I use an audiphile dac/amp for headphones and powered speakers if/when I decide on some), it's not an option for me, so I'm sort of stuck using HDMI 1-4 for my secondary source that I use less than my main, which stays at HDMI 5. I will switch my PS4 to HDMI 5 if I feel I'm gonna be playing a certain game for a lenghtier span of time.
 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
The effects of lag vary considerably. Some games don’t need precise timing or movements. You can get away with 40-50 ms or perhaps more with those games.

I mostly play Black Ops III and when you aim down sights with the rifle you will really notice the effects of input lag. For me anything more than about 25 ms starts to affect my performance in the game.

HDMI 1-4 are said to have an input lag of 34.7 with GLL enabled. That is over my Black Ops III threshold but not over the threshold for other games. However, once you turn GLL off the input lag exceeds 100 ms which is unacceptable for ALL games.

For now we just have to be patient. I would turn GLL on for all games but HDMI 1-4 might be acceptable for certain people with certain games. However, HDMI 5 with GLL is great for absolutely all games.

I have a feeling clear action will be fixed within 1-2 months and then all of these conversations will be behind us.

That being said I still think that the blurring that the Sony TVs do is worse than the line doubling that the P-series currently has without Clear Action or Interpolation enabled.

It still baffles me why someone would choose this blurry mess over what the P-series does.
Easy reason, you're choosing an image that isn't using the Sony's Clearness setting, which does BETTER motion than the Vizio P's Clear Action. Actually, VERY similar, but the Sony won't have the long black transitional blurs that the P suffers from, so in practice, looks slightly better.

I tested some Sony sets the same day as the Vizio sets the last time I went to Best Buy (they were real helpful so I went all out).

The Sony's motion processing was amazing. But as you know, there's the other stuff outside of motion processing that Sony's suffer from, which is why I'll take the tradeoffs with the Vizio.

Also, while the Sony outside of Clearness mode does have more motion blur, it actually has LESS of an impact, because iot does NOT have the double imaging problem the Vizio P has even when it's NOT in Clear Action. So in real world testing, the Sony's motion is less jarring than the Vizio Ps. This is why i ONLY use the Vizio P with Clear Action (when it works properly). The subtle but noticeable double image effect is completely gone with proper engagement of Clear Action. If Clear Action isn't engaging properly, then yes the double image is made worse.

That's one thing I think people need to understand. That Sony motion blur only looks worse in still images. In movement, the double image of the Vizio is more detrimental and jarring (IMO), unless again, Clear Action is engaging properly. Then the movement on both the Vizio P and better Sony models behave very similar, as in no blurring, no double images, perfect motion.

Oddly though, I tested a 2016 model Sony 9 series something, and the Clearness setting wasn't working. Probably a bug. The 2015 models were fine.
 

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I'm on mobile, so I can't quote the PS4 web browser example, but I encountered that tonight. I really want to thank Raven Crimson for bringing this issue to light and sharing it with the AVSForum community. If it weren't for this thread I don't know how I'd react. Maybe take the HDTV back and write off LCDs completely (I'm coming from plasma)?

Either way, thanks for Crimson Raven and all other contributors to this thread. As a new P65-C1 owner I am absolutely thrilled with how good of a TV this is. My habits are 70/30 gaming/movie&tv, so this is problem is especially important. Here's to hoping for a quick fix by Vizio!
 

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Discussion Starter #29
I'm on mobile, so I can't quote the PS4 web browser example, but I encountered that tonight. I really want to thank Raven Crimson for bringing this issue to light and sharing it with the AVSForum community. If it weren't for this thread I don't know how I'd react. Maybe take the HDTV back and write off LCDs completely (I'm coming from plasma)?

Either way, thanks for Crimson Raven and all other contributors to this thread. As a new P65-C1 owner I am absolutely thrilled with how good of a TV this is. My habits are 70/30 gaming/movie&tv, so this is problem is especially important. Here's to hoping for a quick fix by Vizio!
I'm glad I'm able to help. I know avs doesn't tend to be heavily leaning towards gamers, which is why I find it important to discuss that aspect.

The browser is a good way to test for it, but it's also easy to see when you're navigating the ps4 main menu quickly. All the game tiles and stuff will blur like crazy with double images, lol.

I watched a couple of Blu-Rays this morning, and honestly couldn't see the issues with Clear Action off, so it's probably why most people on the main thread aren't bothered. It's with gaming that motion blur/doubling it becomes very apparent.
 

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I'm glad I'm able to help. I know avs doesn't tend to be heavily leaning towards gamers, which is why I find it important to discuss that aspect.

The browser is a good way to test for it, but it's also easy to see when you're navigating the ps4 main menu quickly. All the game tiles and stuff will blur like crazy with double images, lol.

I watched a couple of Blu-Rays this morning, and honestly couldn't see the issues with Clear Action off, so it's probably why most people on the main thread aren't bothered. It's with gaming that motion blur/doubling it becomes very apparent.
Sounds like you need the Hisense MU9800 with its 20 segment backlight scanning for reduced blur. Similar to LightBoost.
 

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Easy reason, you're choosing an image that isn't using the Sony's Clearness setting, which does BETTER motion than the Vizio P's Clear Action. Actually, VERY similar, but the Sony won't have the long black transitional blurs that the P suffers from, so in practice, looks slightly better.

I tested some Sony sets the same day as the Vizio sets the last time I went to Best Buy (they were real helpful so I went all out).

The Sony's motion processing was amazing. But as you know, there's the other stuff outside of motion processing that Sony's suffer from, which is why I'll take the tradeoffs with the Vizio.

Also, while the Sony outside of Clearness mode does have more motion blur, it actually has LESS of an impact, because iot does NOT have the double imaging problem the Vizio P has even when it's NOT in Clear Action. So in real world testing, the Sony's motion is less jarring than the Vizio Ps. This is why i ONLY use the Vizio P with Clear Action (when it works properly). The subtle but noticeable double image effect is completely gone with proper engagement of Clear Action. If Clear Action isn't engaging properly, then yes the double image is made worse.

That's one thing I think people need to understand. That Sony motion blur only looks worse in still images. In movement, the double image of the Vizio is more detrimental and jarring (IMO), unless again, Clear Action is engaging properly. Then the movement on both the Vizio P and better Sony models behave very similar, as in no blurring, no double images, perfect motion.

Oddly though, I tested a 2016 model Sony 9 series something, and the Clearness setting wasn't working. Probably a bug. The 2015 models were fine.
The thing that you are missing is that yes absolutely you won’t notice the extra motion blur the Sony TVs have with normal TV programs. That is because those programs have inherent motion blur from the slower shutter speeds that the cameras use. You get motion blur regardless of whether the backlight flickers or not.

Even clear action or the Sony equivalent won’t improve motion of normal TV programs because the motion blur is inherent in the TV program itself.

It is only when you have computer generated content with well-defined subject lines and no inherent motion blur that the Sony TV’s motion blur will rear its ugly head. The test patterns RTINGS.com uses demonstrate this very clearly.

You literally can’t use the Sony TV’s for computer use without their equivalent of clear action turned on. With the Vizio you can use it without it on and it really isn’t that bad. Yes turning clear action on with it working would be better but it really is not an absolute requirement like it is with the Sony TVs.
 

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Can anyone comment on whether HDMI 5 will accept a 720p signal?

According to the main Vizio P Series Owners thread, it will, but according to Rtings.com, it won't... http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-usage/video-gaming/best#question_17998

I believe the 2016 P series actually will accept 720p on HDMI 5.
When we pick 720p from our computer connected through HDMI 5, the Vizio P only display a black screen. Even if it worked, the quality would be sub par as this specific port is optimized for higher resolutions.
 

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Im thinking about returning the 65inch back to bestbuy i cant handle this anymore and it sucks because i love everything about this tv but i cant even play uncharted so well because of the double imaging even without clear action...will there ever be a fix?...i came from a 50 inch sony w800b and i loved it but i wanted to up grade
 

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Why do you need 720p to work through HDMI 5? The only reason I can think of is the PS3, that didn't upconvert the signal to 1080p for many games.

360, XB1,PS4 as all either have a 1080p upconversion, or natively runs games at 1080p.
Exactly -- I still use my PS3 quite a bit. The Vizio could just do simple 3x duplication to fill the screen (horizontal: 1280 x 3 = 3840; vertical: 720p x 3 = 2160p) but if anyone has a chance to check this out it would be appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
Exactly -- I still use my PS3 quite a bit. The Vizio could just do simple 3x duplication to fill the screen (horizontal: 1280 x 3 = 3840; vertical: 720p x 3 = 2160p) but if anyone has a chance to check this out it would be appreciated.


^Real crap image showing the signal works.

As a quick reply, I set my PC to 1280x720, and it's functioning fine. Vizio's 720p upscaling is pretty mediocre, but it's not giving me any errors. Note: I haven't compared it to a 720p signal from HDMI 1-4. I will do brief tests later to see if it looks much worse or not. I haven't tested 720p signals almost at all, so right now I don't have any real data on 720p.

On another front, guys, I found something/s very interesting about 1080p/120hz. If you're not computer gaming savvy, this may all sound like foreign language, so don't worry about it if you're not a PC gamer, or don't know much about settings tweaks.

1080p/120hz signal is the only way 60fps motion seems to be correctly displaying when Clear Action is off (as in a 60fps capped motion within the 120hz signal). What I mean by that, is that unlike running some tests when the signal is at 1080p/60hz, (which incorrectly displays 60fps motion at all times as there is always a double image when Clear Action or any Motion Interpolation is OFF), 60fps within a 1080p/120hz signal moves properly, without the double image, though with the typical LCD blur.

Now... this won't exactly help any source that isn't displaying a 1080p/120hz signal, so that means no current gaming console. And I question it working on PC games on Fullscreen, as the games may switch the signal to 1080p/60hz upon going full screen. I have no doubt proper 60fps would be maintained in borderless window modes for games that support it. You'd just have to find a way to cap the in game fps (I use either DXtory or MSI Rivatuner Statistics Server).

This doesn't beat Clear Action working properly in any real way, but it is the best alternative for PC gamers who absolutely refuse to use Clear Action, and don't wanna deal with double images.

The other alternative is to use Motion Interpolation (Reduce Judder on, Reduce Motion Blur at 8 or above (though honestly no reason to go less than 10 for Reduce Motion Blur since there is zero penalty, and you gain all benefits). This however adds input lag. Also, this will not work with 1080p/120hz (because Reduce Judder is disabled, and due to the bug that needs RJ on for RMB to work, RMB will not engage), so you must set the display to 60hz.

All this being said, 1080p/120hz is a finicky signal, in that motion jumps from proper to improper, so YMMV.

Long story short: For those who don't use Clear Action, set your PC to display at 1080p/120hz, cap the in game fps to 60 and the 60fps motion will be 'normalized' compared to just having the PC set to 60hz. No double image motion, but typical lcd blur.

Personally, not something I'd do, since as always, Clear Action working properly is always gonna resolve motion much, much better, in lesser steps, and with all content.
 

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^Real crap image showing the signal works.

As a quick reply, I set my PC to 1280x720, and it's functioning fine. Vizio's 720p upscaling is pretty mediocre, but it's not giving me any errors. Note: I haven't compared it to a 720p signal from HDMI 1-4. I will do brief tests later to see if it looks much worse or not. I haven't tested 720p signals almost at all, so right now I don't have any real data on 720p.
Thanks for checking that out and the screen pic, appreciated. It looks like AVS is right (no surprises there) and Rtings.com is not.
 

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Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
Rtings has been wrong on quite a few occasions really.

As for more 120hz testing, I was playing some games that make the shift between good motion and bad motion apparent (easiest games are 2d side scrollers to test for motion inconsistency). 60fps without Clear Action works surprisingly well with a 120hz signal, BUT, because the signal shifts from good to bad motion so randomly, you really don't gain much benefit, and may actually be more detrimental than just sticking to 60hz with it's improper no Clear Action motion, because the constant shifting at 120hz causes frame skips which are pretty rough.

I honestly don't advise 120hz gaming yet, even at 120fps, even with Clear ACtion off. The motion processing needs fixing first.

Even when 120fps is working properly, Clear Action at 60fps still looks sharper. 120fps has more individual frames in animation for sure, but in practice, both 60fps and 120fps are judder free, and smooth. Smooth + sharp is better than smooth + more animation , but blurry. The main benefit of 120fps over the others is the even further reduced latency, though this TV is already fantastic in that regard.
 

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Discussion Starter #39 (Edited)
Updated the first post, better defining what the issue looks like.

I had a hard time figuring out what to call it, but then remembered 3D crosstalk (I never really used 3D on my TVs, and actively avoid it in the movie theaters, which is why I didn't think of it until now).



While this is an image of 3D crosstalk, this is very much like the motion issue on the P Series. Instead of 3D objects, it is with absolutely everything on screen that is in motion (as shown on the first post).

Also, to update you guys invested in this, I'm sorry to say that I no longer own the set (because of this very issue), so I'm unable to test future updates to see if the issues have been fixed, with extensive testing. I do believe Matt and the others at Vizio are aware now, so I'm hopeful they'll get the strobe timings down so the crosstalk is eliminated at all times. If they manage to do this, I may eventually repurchase this TV set.
 

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Updated the first post, better defining what the issue looks like.

Also, to update you guys invested in this, I'm sorry to say that I no longer own the set (because of this very issue), so I'm unable to test future updates to see if the issues have been fixed, with extensive testing. I do believe Matt and the others at Vizio are aware now, so I'm hopeful they'll get the strobe timings down so the crosstalk is eliminated at all times. If they manage to do this, I may eventually repurchase this TV set.
It is a shame you got rid of your P-series. The latest update(1.1.14) resolved the clear action + GLL issue you mentioned.

I was able to easily reproduce the ghosting issue you mentioned in the original post with the old firmware. To my surprise it didn’t happen when I tested it with the new firmware this morning. I assumed that it would break when I switched inputs and then switched back. However, it stayed rock steady no matter what I tried.

With that being said there still are some remaining issues I have with it. So here is what works and what doesn’t.

1. You still have to set Reduce Judder to 1 in order to get Reduce Motion Blur to enable. You shouldn’t have to do this and I believe this should be fixed in a future firmware update.

2. Clear Action turned on, with GLL turned off, Reduce judder set to 1, and Reduce Motion Blur set to 10 gives the best motion characteristics in most situations especially with scrolling text. The motion is OLED clear with these settings. However, that means the screen dims significantly and there is some flicker with certain content.

3. Clear Action on with GLL on now does not produce any of the double image ghosting like it did with the previous firmware. The motion is not quite as clear as with Clear Action on and GLL off with the interpolation controls on but it is very close to that.

4. Clear action on with GLL on does produce some flickering that is not present with Clear Action on and GLL off. The flickering is most noticeable with large white backgrounds. Internet Browser pages and word documents show the flickering the most. However, with games and movies you rarely get full white sections so it is usable that way with that content.

5. 1080p @ 120 FPS has more motion blur than 1080p @ 60 FPS with GLL on and Clear Action on. Clear Action does not help 1080p @ 120 FPS at all at the moment. I still use 1080p @ 120 FPS for gaming on a PC because I don’t like the flickering of clear action when I bring up the browser with the PC.

However, I now prefer to game on the PS4 with Clear Action on and GLL on over gaming on the PC. Both are good but the experience at 1080p @ 60 FPS with clear action and GLL is the best right now. Ideally we would want 1080p @ 120 FPS to be able to benefit from clear action and GLL simultaneously. Then that would be the best experience with PC gaming.
 
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