VSA LCR-15's vs NHT Evoultion M5/6's
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Yea,
I had the nht t5's and m5 7 channel setup ( great value and matching speakers are awesome)..
I was looking to upgrade to the V.S's (4JR'S).but was worried about the LSR15 being the weaklinkused as a center, so I bought one to try it out.
I cant really do a fair comparision as I had only one, I did put it on the center channel and listened to some movies and music to try and tell the differences.
It sounded very good, maybe a tad smoother then the m5 and I thought it may have had a very very SLIGHT edge on the m5's in some areas..But for the price differences I couldnt justify it..
But if I were starting fresh and could get the LSR15's for a good price.. I think that'd be an awesome setup but again, the nht m5's are an awesome speaker and considering the price they can be had for are pretty much unbeatable..
So, Im sure I confused you even more
..
I had the nht t5's and m5 7 channel setup ( great value and matching speakers are awesome)..
I was looking to upgrade to the V.S's (4JR'S).but was worried about the LSR15 being the weaklinkused as a center, so I bought one to try it out.
I cant really do a fair comparision as I had only one, I did put it on the center channel and listened to some movies and music to try and tell the differences.
It sounded very good, maybe a tad smoother then the m5 and I thought it may have had a very very SLIGHT edge on the m5's in some areas..But for the price differences I couldnt justify it..
But if I were starting fresh and could get the LSR15's for a good price.. I think that'd be an awesome setup but again, the nht m5's are an awesome speaker and considering the price they can be had for are pretty much unbeatable..
So, Im sure I confused you even more
..I sent NHT a room diagram and they suggested the M5's over M6's... Do you recall any specifics regarding the "some areas"? Would you say one is better than the other with music vs. movies? I'm beginning to wonder if the M6's may be better than the LCR-15's - in that they're a true 3-way.
M5 vs M6 vs LCR-15
System Type: 3-way acoustic susp // 3-way acoustic susp // quasi three-way aperiodic loaded
Drivers:
(2) 5.25" woofers // (2) 6.5" woofers // (1) 5.5" woofer
3" mid-range // 4" mid-range // 5.5" mid-range
1" metal dome tweeter // 1" metal dome tweeter // 1" composite silk/polymer resin dome
Frequency Response:
66Hz - 30kHz. +/- 3dB // 61Hz - 30kHz. +/- 3dB // 35 Hz - 25 kHz, (-6dB in room).
Crossover Frequency:
380Hz, 2.4kHz // 400Hz, 2.3kHz // 220 Hz , 2.2 kHz
Sensitivity:
85dB (2.83V at 1M) // 86dB (2.83V at 1M) // 87.5 dB @ 1 watt/1 meter
Impedance:
6 ohms nominal // 6 ohms nominal // 8 ohms nominal
Recommended Amplifier Power:
150 W/ch RMS. // 50W/ch minimum, 250W/ch maximum // 8 watts min., 200 watts peak
I wonder if they would be ranked as follows, considering sound quality alone:
1: M6
2. LCR-15
3. M5
What do ya'll think?
M5 vs M6 vs LCR-15
System Type: 3-way acoustic susp // 3-way acoustic susp // quasi three-way aperiodic loaded
Drivers:
(2) 5.25" woofers // (2) 6.5" woofers // (1) 5.5" woofer
3" mid-range // 4" mid-range // 5.5" mid-range
1" metal dome tweeter // 1" metal dome tweeter // 1" composite silk/polymer resin dome
Frequency Response:
66Hz - 30kHz. +/- 3dB // 61Hz - 30kHz. +/- 3dB // 35 Hz - 25 kHz, (-6dB in room).
Crossover Frequency:
380Hz, 2.4kHz // 400Hz, 2.3kHz // 220 Hz , 2.2 kHz
Sensitivity:
85dB (2.83V at 1M) // 86dB (2.83V at 1M) // 87.5 dB @ 1 watt/1 meter
Impedance:
6 ohms nominal // 6 ohms nominal // 8 ohms nominal
Recommended Amplifier Power:
150 W/ch RMS. // 50W/ch minimum, 250W/ch maximum // 8 watts min., 200 watts peak
I wonder if they would be ranked as follows, considering sound quality alone:
1: M6
2. LCR-15
3. M5
What do ya'll think?
you're gonna hurt yourself if you continue in this fashion. It's called SIMA (self-inflicted mental abuse) and it is something I'm extremely familiar with.
One thing about the LCR-15 2.5 way progressive array is that BOTH 5.25" drivers play in the midbass/bass area, thus helping out on the low end...more cone area than your traditional 6.5" woof.
In the midrange, only a single 5.25" driver is working, thus helping to prevent lobing if laid on its side as a center channel. If standing up, it's a non-issue.
I've also heard the M5 and felt it was a nice speaker. I own 3 LCR-15's.
Ran
One thing about the LCR-15 2.5 way progressive array is that BOTH 5.25" drivers play in the midbass/bass area, thus helping out on the low end...more cone area than your traditional 6.5" woof.
In the midrange, only a single 5.25" driver is working, thus helping to prevent lobing if laid on its side as a center channel. If standing up, it's a non-issue.
I've also heard the M5 and felt it was a nice speaker. I own 3 LCR-15's.
Ran
Ranman,
Thanks for the SIMA warning... I thought this would be the cure the voices in my head... They just keep chanting "what about this, what about that, what about this..."
At any rate, to your points:
__"BOTH 5.25" drivers play in the midbass/bass area, thus helping out on the low end...more cone area than your traditional 6.5" woof."__
I thought that one of the drivers exclusively played the mids, and the other was dedicated to the woofing - Are you saying that when mids and lows are both played, that both cones are playing, but one goes deeper?
As to cone area - the LCR-15's have 2 - 5.5's, while the M5 has the 2 -5.25's & a 3" mid, and the M6 has 2 - 6.5's and a 4" mid - I'm thinking the cone area of LCR-15 is about the same as the M5's & somewhat less in than the M6's... Is this right?
You know my saga well, thanks for entertaining my madness. What made you choose the LCR-15's over the M5?
David
Thanks for the SIMA warning... I thought this would be the cure the voices in my head... They just keep chanting "what about this, what about that, what about this..."
At any rate, to your points:
__"BOTH 5.25" drivers play in the midbass/bass area, thus helping out on the low end...more cone area than your traditional 6.5" woof."__
I thought that one of the drivers exclusively played the mids, and the other was dedicated to the woofing - Are you saying that when mids and lows are both played, that both cones are playing, but one goes deeper?
As to cone area - the LCR-15's have 2 - 5.5's, while the M5 has the 2 -5.25's & a 3" mid, and the M6 has 2 - 6.5's and a 4" mid - I'm thinking the cone area of LCR-15 is about the same as the M5's & somewhat less in than the M6's... Is this right?
You know my saga well, thanks for entertaining my madness. What made you choose the LCR-15's over the M5?
David
I was blind, but now I see... Thanks for the clarification. The M5/M6 finish is just fine by me... See what you've done now... Yes the M5's would be less expensive. however, based on my Internet searches and our previous VSA pricing conversations - I now believe I could get the M6's for about the same price as the LCR-15's... So now the voices are saying "how can the LCR-15 outperform the M6?" Help me stop the voices!!!! Sounds like this is a case for Theaterdoc... I'm gonna try and get him to chime in...
Thanks Ranman!
Thanks Ranman!
I also have a 14X15X9 room..associated equip. at the the time was an Integra dtc-9.4 pre-pro and Bryston amps..a couple of 20-39 svs plus's.
I did an in home demo of the m6's directly versues the m5's (money no object).. To be fair they hadnt broken in yet, but I had them both for a couple of days.
My personal preference was for the m5's..I thought the m6's sounded a little bright in my room with my equipment. The m6's were maybe a little more revealing though. Dont just assume that you will prefer the m6's over the m5's just because they are more expensive.
Moving on to the V.S LCR15 I had for a week or so..I wrote my impressions at the time on a nht thread somewhere here on avs..maybe do a search. If I remember correctly I thought the lcr15 did womens vocals especially well (silky smooth) and certain instruments sounded incredibly real..But on the other hand I thought that the m5 had a stronger midrange section that wasnt as promenent on the lcr15..and my opinion was that the m5 would do center channel duties a little better then the V.S..and the V.S was just a tad less grainy for music in the treble area..
Money aside I wouldnt say one was better then the other, its just a matter of were the listeners preferences are...Since your 60 % HT imo you'd be wise to at least give the nht's a real good listen..they sound like they may be just the right ticket for your purposes.
PLUS the nht m5/m6 have boundary eq/environment switches on them which can be really helpfull for placement issues...Also you could get the matching pedestols..Down the road you could add the b5 bass modules..which I very much still miss today..The adjustability of the b5's to suit there environment makes it a tweekers paradise (boundary,phase, fully adjustable high-low pass crossovers,etc)
I did an in home demo of the m6's directly versues the m5's (money no object).. To be fair they hadnt broken in yet, but I had them both for a couple of days.
My personal preference was for the m5's..I thought the m6's sounded a little bright in my room with my equipment. The m6's were maybe a little more revealing though. Dont just assume that you will prefer the m6's over the m5's just because they are more expensive.
Moving on to the V.S LCR15 I had for a week or so..I wrote my impressions at the time on a nht thread somewhere here on avs..maybe do a search. If I remember correctly I thought the lcr15 did womens vocals especially well (silky smooth) and certain instruments sounded incredibly real..But on the other hand I thought that the m5 had a stronger midrange section that wasnt as promenent on the lcr15..and my opinion was that the m5 would do center channel duties a little better then the V.S..and the V.S was just a tad less grainy for music in the treble area..
Money aside I wouldnt say one was better then the other, its just a matter of were the listeners preferences are...Since your 60 % HT imo you'd be wise to at least give the nht's a real good listen..they sound like they may be just the right ticket for your purposes.
PLUS the nht m5/m6 have boundary eq/environment switches on them which can be really helpfull for placement issues...Also you could get the matching pedestols..Down the road you could add the b5 bass modules..which I very much still miss today..The adjustability of the b5's to suit there environment makes it a tweekers paradise (boundary,phase, fully adjustable high-low pass crossovers,etc)
Thanks Johny,
The voices are still there, but no longer screaming...
I probably will pair the speakers with the upcoming HK 635 or the PE 56txi... Both neutral to warm AVR's... I'm thinking that this, along with more break-in may make the 6's the one's to get.
I'm considering getting the SVS PB2+ or the Onix UFW-12 for the sub.
Thanks again.
The voices are still there, but no longer screaming...
I probably will pair the speakers with the upcoming HK 635 or the PE 56txi... Both neutral to warm AVR's... I'm thinking that this, along with more break-in may make the 6's the one's to get.
I'm considering getting the SVS PB2+ or the Onix UFW-12 for the sub.
Thanks again.
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Hey, why do you think they're so good for the money - no expense on fancy finishes.
| Originally posted by theranman If NHT offered a better finish, I would have seriously looked into it. Seriously, the only way to compare the two |
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Thats probably the best way, but even doing it like this isnt without problems..You have to position one set of speakers either inside or outside of the other pair which could skew the results.
What I did ( since I only had one v..s lcr15 )..was put the v.s as my left speaker and the m5 as my right..then calibrated them to the same db..that way I was able to quickly move from standing in front of one speaker to the other allmost instantly..I know that you cant tell things like imaging and soundstage doing this, but you can get a pretty good idea of the tonal differences etc.
| Seriously, the only way to compare the two is to put them side by side with a switcher in your own listening environment...which NOBODY seems to do any more..sadly." |
What I did ( since I only had one v..s lcr15 )..was put the v.s as my left speaker and the m5 as my right..then calibrated them to the same db..that way I was able to quickly move from standing in front of one speaker to the other allmost instantly..I know that you cant tell things like imaging and soundstage doing this, but you can get a pretty good idea of the tonal differences etc.
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531 Posts
LCR-15s are actually my favorite speaker from Von Schweikert next to the VR-4jrs.... but that's another subject all together....
I have not heard the NHT's.... I keep meaning to set up a listening session with them, but haven't gotten around to it... I made a promise months ago that I would do it.... but haven't as of yet....
due to a PM request, my thoughts on the LCR-15s after having lived with them for quite some time and compared them directly with the other VSA models, a multitude of models from Usher Audio, and also Phase Technology's Premier Collection line....
first things first... the LCR-15 is an extremely easy speaker to drive... nice, flat and high impedence curve. I know several people using them with single ended triode amps because they are such a benign load and reasonably efficient.... receivers will have no problem driving these speakers to insane volume levels. The LCR-15 will take 500 clean watts and not break a sweat.... but it needs very little to work in a reasonable environment and any of the major brand receivers will power them well... however, this is such a high end speaker, that no matter how much you spend on front end equipment, they will not be the weak link and will reveal improvements you make in the source equipment.... I've driven them with everything from $300 receivers to $12K monoblock amps....
a stereo pair of LCR-15s is a definite step up in performance from a pair of VR-1s... Even though they use a smaller midbass driver, they go a little bit lower than the VR-1s and have even faster transient response and more detail in the bass they do reproduce......
What you get is incredibly clear, transparent, but extremely smooth, effortless and musical sound. The VSA stuff is incredibly good off axis, mostly because of the crossover design. So the speakers will sound just as good tonally in many different parts of the room, both on and off axis, above and below the tweeter plane.... They will also work, and actually prefer to be spaced further apart than most speakers. They throw a tremendous image, completely disappear, and have a lifelike, eerily real sounding reproduction of vocals and piano. They're just a touch on the warm side of completely neutral.
Don't let their size or driver complement fool you. albert has squeezed some serious boogie out of these speakers and they will rock with the best of them. They are extremely dynamic if called upon and make one of the best center channel speakers I've ever heard for anywhere even close to this price.... you can search through the archives here for reports from people who have replaced some rather exotic center channels with an LCR-15.. all were apprehensive that it wouldn't have enough this or that... everyone came away impressed and happy that they took the plunge and bought one...
The Phase Technology PC3.1MKII is a much warmer sounding speaker. It gives up a bit of off axis response to the Von Schweikert LCR-15 (but then again, virtually every speaker I've ever heard gives up a bit of off axis performance by comparison). The Phase Techs have a LOT more midbass punch than the VSA's, they go deeper and they mask bright movie soundtracks better.... the 3.1MKII's are an infinitely listenable speaker.. you can listen for hours upon hours and never get fatigued. They don't have the same realness factor to them compared to the LCR-15, but are still a tremendous speaker that I use as a reference and have a setup in my personal room just because they are so good.... great looking speaker too, and built very very solidly...
If you're looking for warmth and extreme dynamics, look no further than the Usher lineup of speakers.... worth every single penny of the asking price and then some....
I have not heard the NHT's.... I keep meaning to set up a listening session with them, but haven't gotten around to it... I made a promise months ago that I would do it.... but haven't as of yet....
due to a PM request, my thoughts on the LCR-15s after having lived with them for quite some time and compared them directly with the other VSA models, a multitude of models from Usher Audio, and also Phase Technology's Premier Collection line....
first things first... the LCR-15 is an extremely easy speaker to drive... nice, flat and high impedence curve. I know several people using them with single ended triode amps because they are such a benign load and reasonably efficient.... receivers will have no problem driving these speakers to insane volume levels. The LCR-15 will take 500 clean watts and not break a sweat.... but it needs very little to work in a reasonable environment and any of the major brand receivers will power them well... however, this is such a high end speaker, that no matter how much you spend on front end equipment, they will not be the weak link and will reveal improvements you make in the source equipment.... I've driven them with everything from $300 receivers to $12K monoblock amps....
a stereo pair of LCR-15s is a definite step up in performance from a pair of VR-1s... Even though they use a smaller midbass driver, they go a little bit lower than the VR-1s and have even faster transient response and more detail in the bass they do reproduce......
What you get is incredibly clear, transparent, but extremely smooth, effortless and musical sound. The VSA stuff is incredibly good off axis, mostly because of the crossover design. So the speakers will sound just as good tonally in many different parts of the room, both on and off axis, above and below the tweeter plane.... They will also work, and actually prefer to be spaced further apart than most speakers. They throw a tremendous image, completely disappear, and have a lifelike, eerily real sounding reproduction of vocals and piano. They're just a touch on the warm side of completely neutral.
Don't let their size or driver complement fool you. albert has squeezed some serious boogie out of these speakers and they will rock with the best of them. They are extremely dynamic if called upon and make one of the best center channel speakers I've ever heard for anywhere even close to this price.... you can search through the archives here for reports from people who have replaced some rather exotic center channels with an LCR-15.. all were apprehensive that it wouldn't have enough this or that... everyone came away impressed and happy that they took the plunge and bought one...
The Phase Technology PC3.1MKII is a much warmer sounding speaker. It gives up a bit of off axis response to the Von Schweikert LCR-15 (but then again, virtually every speaker I've ever heard gives up a bit of off axis performance by comparison). The Phase Techs have a LOT more midbass punch than the VSA's, they go deeper and they mask bright movie soundtracks better.... the 3.1MKII's are an infinitely listenable speaker.. you can listen for hours upon hours and never get fatigued. They don't have the same realness factor to them compared to the LCR-15, but are still a tremendous speaker that I use as a reference and have a setup in my personal room just because they are so good.... great looking speaker too, and built very very solidly...
If you're looking for warmth and extreme dynamics, look no further than the Usher lineup of speakers.... worth every single penny of the asking price and then some....
The real question is: Has it made your decision any easier?
As a side note, I have the Phase Tech dipole/bipole surrounds and I must say that they are absolutely fantastic and blend into my listening room aesthetic like "butta", but I'll soon be "phasing" them out in order to try out the matching VSA dipoles. Good thing they make 'em in white.
Now if we're also talking about OTHER speakers, that Rocket Reference line......
Ran
As a side note, I have the Phase Tech dipole/bipole surrounds and I must say that they are absolutely fantastic and blend into my listening room aesthetic like "butta", but I'll soon be "phasing" them out in order to try out the matching VSA dipoles. Good thing they make 'em in white.
Now if we're also talking about OTHER speakers, that Rocket Reference line......
Ran
ran,
It sure has brought clarity to the questions I have... I may have 1134 mile road trip in my future to A/B them. (that's a mere $75 for gas and a weekend in my car - can you say roadtrip?!) Thanks to you for the helping make that possible.
Don't even start...
thanks,
David
It sure has brought clarity to the questions I have... I may have 1134 mile road trip in my future to A/B them. (that's a mere $75 for gas and a weekend in my car - can you say roadtrip?!) Thanks to you for the helping make that possible.
Don't even start...
thanks,
David
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531 Posts
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Be prepared.... more goodness awaits you... I'm completely in love with the TS-150s.... I never really liked bi-pole/di-pole speakers until I heard these.... they will immerse you....
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David,
You're more than welcome to come up here and demo LCR-15s, PC3.1MKII's and any combination of the Usher stuff in the same systems if you wish. There is a VSA dealer in Atlanta. They should have stock of the LCR-15s if you want to hear them locally and save the drive. Great guy who runs that dealership.
Shane
| Originally posted by theranman The real question is: Has it made your decision any easier? As a side note, I have the Phase Tech dipole/bipole surrounds and I must say that they are absolutely fantastic and blend into my listening room aesthetic like "butta", but I'll soon be "phasing" them out in order to try out the matching VSA dipoles. Good thing they make 'em in white. Now if we're also talking about OTHER speakers, that Rocket Reference line...... Ran |
Quote:
| Originally posted by NKOTB ran, It sure has brought clarity to the questions I have... I may have 1134 mile road trip in my future to A/B them. (that's a mere $75 for gas and a weekend in my car - can you say roadtrip?!) Thanks to you for the helping make that possible. Don't even start... thanks, David |
You're more than welcome to come up here and demo LCR-15s, PC3.1MKII's and any combination of the Usher stuff in the same systems if you wish. There is a VSA dealer in Atlanta. They should have stock of the LCR-15s if you want to hear them locally and save the drive. Great guy who runs that dealership.
Shane
Doc,
Thanks for the invite... I have outlaws in Burlington... Sure is closer than the alternative... If you're referring to the Playhouse Audio dealer, I have been in contact with him already. Unfortunately, as great of a guy as he is, he's a 2-channel man. So I have no idea what the System 12 sounds like as a whole. What I did listen to was a pair of partially run in LCR-15's w/ the VSR/1 sub, connected to an amp the size of a small cofffee table, with interconnects the size of garden hoses, in a room 26x20x15 room... Not exactly a comparable environment to mine. I asked him about in home demo's and unfortunately he doesn't keep VSA demo stock. So there would have been a higher price for in-home demo privileges at the time. He had bought the pair of LCR's for an A/B comparison with another client - so I just left him a message asking if he still had them on hand... we'll see...
David
Thanks for the invite... I have outlaws in Burlington... Sure is closer than the alternative... If you're referring to the Playhouse Audio dealer, I have been in contact with him already. Unfortunately, as great of a guy as he is, he's a 2-channel man. So I have no idea what the System 12 sounds like as a whole. What I did listen to was a pair of partially run in LCR-15's w/ the VSR/1 sub, connected to an amp the size of a small cofffee table, with interconnects the size of garden hoses, in a room 26x20x15 room... Not exactly a comparable environment to mine. I asked him about in home demo's and unfortunately he doesn't keep VSA demo stock. So there would have been a higher price for in-home demo privileges at the time. He had bought the pair of LCR's for an A/B comparison with another client - so I just left him a message asking if he still had them on hand... we'll see...
David
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