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Discussion Starter #1
I'm cross-eyed reading all the great posts here, and frankly, some of the discussions regarding types of screens is fairly confusing to me. So let me state my summary understandings, and what my purchasing thoughts are, and I would appreciate some commentary


My current setup is a Sony SXRD 70 XBR2, so this will be my subjective starting point. Viewing will be about 50% Blu Ray, 30% sports (mostly ice hockey), and the balance DirectTV - all HD viewing, no SD in this room.


Room is dedicated, though off-white ceiling for now, medium color walls and carpet. External ambient light is low to non existent (double baffle blackout shades on all windows), and most viewing done at night). Screen will not be directly adjacent to painted sidewalls - about 7 feet away on one side, about 10 feet away on the other. Screen drop will put the top of screen about 18 to 24 inches away from ceiling.


Room dimensions are about 24 long by 17 wide by nine foot high.


I will be sitting about 15 feet away from the screen, and have option to ceiling mount at any distance, or stand mount behind the viewing area (this would put the projector about 17.5 feet away from the screen and allow vertical centering on the screen). With a ceiling mount, I could drop it 3 feet, which would put me in the middle to upper middle third of the screen.


I'm down to the VW-60, the RS-2, and Epson 1080UP (Pro). The VW-60 is the top choice right now, but I may get a good deal on a new RS2, which, if I do, might make it worth it given what I've read about the better calibrated contrast and brightness of the JVC vs the Sony, and especially vs the Epson.


My current screen choice is the DaLite Hi Power (Cinema Contour fixed screen with the black velvet/fabric option, debating a 110 or 119 diagonal) for any of these projectors, and regardless of mounting position. My general reasoning is:


- The retro-reflective nature of the Hi Power will provide some modest benefit given the white ceiling


- While the ceiling mount, even at three feet down, is not ideal, there is not an overtly detrimental aspect to this use, other than I'm potentially paying for gain I'm not benefiting from.


- My single row of four seats at 15 feet away appears to be within the reasonable viewing cone of the Hi-Power (the four seats are about 120" in width total), though my geometry skills have long since abandoned me.


If I'm making some wrong assumptions, or am omitting some things from the thought process, fire away!


Regarding grey screens as an alternative, my understanding is that while they may help a bit more with some of the reflected light from the ceiling, they loss of brightness/contrast is fairly noticeable


Ideally, my understanding is the best position would be stand mount behind and above the seating area, as this would give me maximum gain with the Hi Power, shooting straight at the centerline of the screen. This would put the projector about 18 inches behind and about 24 to 30 inches above our heads. My general understanding is the VW-60 is quiet enough and the Epson is not quiet enough for the this proximity. True, false? And what of the RS2 in terms of noise at this proximity?


Finally, I might be able to build out a small proscenium on the front wall and recess the screen in this, to help mitigate some close range light spill to the ceiling, but perhaps this is wishful thinking...


Thanks for whatever insights and experiences you can contribute.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Perhaps I dumped too much in the initial post...



Starting more simply: out of the three - the VW60, the Pro 1080UB, and the RS2/HD100, my read is that the RS2, while the most expensive, will provide the brightest and best contrast image when comparing calibrated modes. Am I correct on this assessment?


Thanks
 

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thrang,


Of the 3 choices, I would concur that the RS2 would provide the best contrast and brightness. Consider that the screen you've chosen should ideally have the PJ mounted as directly opposite the screen as possible in order to have the maximum light reflected back to the viewer.


I would say if you can mount the PJ on a stand or wall directly behind and just slightly above the viewing position you would maximize the brightness.


I also believe that the loudness (or lack thereof) is in the following order RS2 (quietest), Sony and Espon (loudest).


Hope this helps.


~hemster
 

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Discussion Starter #4

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemster /forum/post/14269964


thrang,


Of the 3 choices, I would concur that the RS2 would provide the best contrast and brightness. Consider that the screen you've chosen should ideally have the PJ mounted as directly opposite the screen as possible in order to have the maximum light reflected back to the viewer.


I would say if you can mount the PJ on a stand or wall directly behind and just slightly above the viewing position you would maximize the brightness.


I also believe that the loudness (or lack thereof) is in the following order RS2 (quietest), Sony and Espon (loudest).


Hope this helps.


~hemster

Yes, it does...thank you


On a different tack, I spoke now with two different well respected ISF calibrators over the past two days, and both leaned toward the Epson Pro 1080UB for the reason that it offered them the most control to dial the picture in - they more or less said they can adjust the primaries on the Epson, and you cannot on the JVC or Sony's, making the color less than ideal, or introducing the need for something like the Lumagen HDP to adjust for color accuracy.


But they also concurred that the brightness was better on the Sony, and slightly better on the JVC.


The choices now seems to be whittled down to this:
a) Epson Pro 1080UB ceiling mounted, three foot drop, about 10-11 feet from screen, with some type of 1.x gain grey screen (perhaps a Stewart Firehawk 1.1)


b) VW60 or RS2 table mounted behind listening position, level with screen center, 18 feet away, with DaLite Hi Power 2.5 gain screen (projector about 2 feet above head level)


c) same as B, but with the Lumagen HDP.

All of these should give me somewhere at least 15fl, which should be more than fine since I don't want an overly bright image (The Sony and JVC may even require a neutral density filter
 

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I bought an HC5000 upon release. I decided recently to change PJ and, after hesitating between the VW60 and the RS2, I finally purchased an RS2 from Jason at AV Science. Here are a few, hopefully helpful remarks:


1. Jason is a great guy, extremely nice, knowledgeable and helpful. He also offers the RS2 at a VERY good price. Why don't you contact him?

2. I chose the RS2 and not the VW60 for several reasons. One of them is that Sony has (unofficially) announced several new PJs for September. The echos I have suggest that they should then release a PJ comparable to or better than the VW60, but a cheper price. Another argument against the VW60 is the fact that its colours are slightly to blueish for me. For example, I compared the colours of the VW60, the RS2 and the VW200. The RS2 and the VW200 are VERY close, and markedly different from he VW60. All that being said, the VW60 seems like a great PJ.

3. I can confirm that the RS2 is also a great PJ. When properly installed, the depth it gives to the picture is fabulous. Not to mention the contrast and shadow detail. My only negative comments would be that the colours are really oversaturated and that the picture is slightly soft. But I feel that properly focusing this PJ is crucial to sharpness. I

also have the impression that sharpness/softness depends a lot on alignement of colours, and that my own PJ is near perfect on that side.

4. My PJ is placed just behind me on a shelf, in front of a standard projection screen of

approx. 2.35 meters basis length. The picture is fabulous. About the noise (remember that the PJ is just behind my right ear!): I am EXTREMELY sensitive to noise in general. But I am not at all disturbed by the RS2. It is certainly less quiet that the HC5000 (the VW60 is in between), but I would compare the noise I hear to the noise of a quiet AC in hotels. I mean, when there is no music or sound effects, or hear a slight noise, but nothing as soon as there is music or sound effects.Most importantly: the noise never covers any sound information in the movie. This is in sharp contrast to some DLP PJs, which, at least to me, really impair the presentation of the movie by covering part of the sound signal. ANother comparison: the RS2 seems to me to be less noisy than a standard PS3 playing a BD.


I hope this helps. Don't hesitate to ask me more questions.
 

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Discussion Starter #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey1 /forum/post/14278517


I bought an HC5000 upon release. I decided recently to change PJ and, after hesitating between the VW60 and the RS2, I finally purchased an RS2 from Jason at AV Science. Here are a few, hopefully helpful remarks:


1. Jason is a great guy, extremely nice, knowledgeable and helpful. He also offers the RS2 at a VERY good price. Why don't you contact him?

2. I chose the RS2 and not the VW60 for several reasons. One of them is that Sony has (unofficially) announced several new PJs for September. The echos I have suggest that they should then release a PJ comparable to or better than the VW60, but a cheper price. Another argument against the VW60 is the fact that its colours are slightly to blueish for me. For example, I compared the colours of the VW60, the RS2 and the VW200. The RS2 and the VW200 are VERY close, and markedly different from he VW60. All that being said, the VW60 seems like a great PJ.

3. I can confirm that the RS2 is also a great PJ. When properly installed, the depth it gives to the picture is fabulous. Not to mention the contrast and shadow detail. My only negative comments would be that the colours are really oversaturated and that the picture is slightly soft. But I feel that properly focusing this PJ is crucial to sharpness. I

also have the impression that sharpness/softness depends a lot on alignement of colours, and that my own PJ is near perfect on that side.

4. My PJ is placed just behind me on a shelf, in front of a standard projection screen of

approx. 2.35 meters basis length. The picture is fabulous. About the noise (remember that the PJ is just behind my right ear!): I am EXTREMELY sensitive to noise in general. But I am not at all disturbed by the RS2. It is certainly less quiet that the HC5000 (the VW60 is in between), but I would compare the noise I hear to the noise of a quiet AC in hotels. I mean, when there is no music or sound effects, or hear a slight noise, but nothing as soon as there is music or sound effects.Most importantly: the noise never covers any sound information in the movie. This is in sharp contrast to some DLP PJs, which, at least to me, really impair the presentation of the movie by covering part of the sound signal. ANother comparison: the RS2 seems to me to be less noisy than a standard PS3 playing a BD.


I hope this helps. Don't hesitate to ask me more questions.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.


The noise issue is important as a potential location for the projecor would be a stand/pedastel placed on this table behind my seats:




The pedestal would end up placing the projector about 12 inches behind and about 18 inches above the nearest heads.


I did speak with Jason - he was nice, but perhaps having too busy a day - he was fairly distracted during our conversation, and I had even sent a detailed diagram and some questions in advance to help expedite the process. His take seemed to place the Epson Pro 1080UB as first choice, the Sony next, and the RS2 didn't really get much attention. I'll have to talk with him again.


One issue with the Sony is that it has the shortest throw distance of the three, and the table placement, at 225 inches back from the screen, would possibly require me to go to a 119 diagonal screen instead of a 109/110 which was my original preference. I can fit a 119, and at 15 feet back or so, it's probably fine, but it frankly seems too big when I map it out on my wall....


The Epson is enticing for it's price and great color controls, but it will be the dimmest of the three and perhaps too noisy given the proximity to my ears. While I could ceiling mount, I am attracted to the idea of using a retro-reflective screen and need to get something closer to eye level.


Thus the JVC, plus a Lumagen or some other CMS system, seems like the best but most expensive fit at the moment...but the evaluation continues....
 

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LOL...good thinking to blur out your pictures so the usual creepy AVS guy doesn't ask for more photos.


I am in about the same boat with you. Too many great projectors out today.
 

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How many dB is the noise emitted by the Epson? Also, what's its frequency? The Sony emits a 22dB noise and the RS2, 24 dB (both low lamps, with relatively low frequency, the frequency of the Sony being I think lower). I can vouch that the RS2 just behind my ears is perfectly alright and that its noise is no obstruction to enjoying the movie. For comparison, I tested my first PJ which is a 720 DLP with approx. 30dB noise. Its bearable, but it definitely covers up part of the soundtrack. I made the test on Michael Clayton. There are scenes in offices, where you have a typical office ambient noise. This ambient noise is totally covered by a 30dB PJ; in cases like this, you miss an important part of the experience. To be fait, I did not test Michael Clayton yet on the RS2, but I am confident that I will have no problem. For example, I viewed (again) the

Professionals yesterday night on the RS2. There are quite a few conversation scenes with no music, and I even forgot about the noise of the PJ.


Also, the RS2 is really easy to use and install.


But, you know, I have just chosen this PJ for my home, so I may be biased in its favor! I am trying to remain as objective as I can though.
 

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Discussion Starter #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey1 /forum/post/14279588


How many dB is the noise emitted by the Epson? Also, what's its frequency? The Sony emits a 22dB noise and the RS2, 24 dB (both low lamps, with relatively low frequency, the frequency of the Sony being I think lower). I can vouch that the RS2 just behind my ears is perfectly alright and that its noise is no obstruction to enjoying the movie. For comparison, I tested my first PJ which is a 720 DLP with approx. 30dB noise. Its bearable, but it definitely covers up part of the soundtrack. I made the test on Michael Clayton. There are scenes in offices, where you have a typical office ambient noise. This ambient noise is totally covered by a 30dB PJ; in cases like this, you miss an important part of the experience. To be fait, I did not test Michael Clayton yet on the RS2, but I am confident that I will have no problem. For example, I viewed (again) the

Professionals yesterday night on the RS2. There are quite a few conversation scenes with no music, and I even forgot about the noise of the PJ.


Also, the RS2 is really easy to use and install.


But, you know, I have just chosen this PJ for my home, so I may be biased in its favor! I am trying to remain as objective as I can though.

Thanks for this...


According to the specs, the Epson is 24 db in low lamp/select color modes, and up to 32 db for high lamp/select color modes.


Note this is for fan noise - I wonder if the dynamic iris is "louder" than 24 db when in operation.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang /forum/post/14279629


Thanks for this...


According to the specs, the Epson is 24 db in low lamp/select color modes, and up to 32 db for high lamp/select color modes.


Note this is for fan noise - I wonder if the dynamic iris is "louder" than 24 db when in operation.

I've been told the dynamic iris noise is louder than the fan noise...bummer...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang /forum/post/14280794


I've been told the dynamic iris noise is louder than the fan noise...bummer...

As you say...If you are sensitive to noise, as I am, I would advise you not to go above 24 or 25dB. I am currently watching King Kong on the RS2. From where I sit (i.e. very close), the noise of the PJ is entirely covered by even the softest music or the softest sound effects (with my Denon receiver set at - 9dB). I do hear the noise though when there is no sound coming from the movie; but I don't feel it to be disturbing. The noise of the HC5000, similarly situated, was, even in the absence of music or sound effect, barely audible (19dB). Remember also that dB is a logarithmic scale.


Something else: one of the strong points of the RS2 is the 3D effect; I was demoed the VW60 and the RS2 side by side, and the RS2 wins hands down as far as 3D is concerned. Another GREAT PJ for 3D is the DLP Sim2 D80E, and it's sharper than the RS2. But it's noisy...
 

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Discussion Starter #12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey1 /forum/post/14281109


As you say...If you are sensitive to noise, as I am, I would advise you not to go above 24 or 25dB. I am currently watching King Kong on the RS2. From where I sit (i.e. very close), the noise of the PJ is entirely covered by even the softest music or the softest sound effects (with my Denon receiver set at - 9dB). I do hear the noise though when there is no sound coming from the movie; but I don't feel it to be disturbing. The noise of the HC5000, similarly situated, was, even in the absence of music or sound effect, barely audible (19dB). Remember also that dB is a logarithmic scale.


Something else: one of the strong points of the RS2 is the 3D effect; I was demoed the VW60 and the RS2 side by side, and the RS2 wins hands down as far as 3D is concerned. Another GREAT PJ for 3D is the DLP Sim2 D80E, and it's sharper than the RS2. But it's noisy...

I want to lean to the RS2, but my calibrator, whom I trust, said there was no way he would buy an RS2 unless he also purchased some type of exterbak processor with color management (such as the Lumagen Vision HDP) because the primaries are so off on the RS2 and are not fixable unless you use an external CMS....


Of course, I'm trying to find someplace where I can demo any of these to formulate my own opinion...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey1 /forum/post/14281109


As you say...If you are sensitive to noise, as I am, I would advise you not to go above 24 or 25dB. I am currently watching King Kong on the RS2. From where I sit (i.e. very close), the noise of the PJ is entirely covered by even the softest music or the softest sound effects (with my Denon receiver set at - 9dB). I do hear the noise though when there is no sound coming from the movie; but I don't feel it to be disturbing. The noise of the HC5000, similarly situated, was, even in the absence of music or sound effect, barely audible (19dB). Remember also that dB is a logarithmic scale.


Something else: one of the strong points of the RS2 is the 3D effect; I was demoed the VW60 and the RS2 side by side, and the RS2 wins hands down as far as 3D is concerned. Another GREAT PJ for 3D is the DLP Sim2 D80E, and it's sharper than the RS2. But it's noisy...

One needs to be careful with these statements. VW60 is known to need calibration for optimal performance.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wohlstad /forum/post/14281947


One needs to be careful with these statements. VW60 is known to need calibration for optimal performance.

He said the same for that projector also. It's why he likes the Epson 1080UB, since it has the CMS controls built in....


Sigh....
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey1 /forum/post/14278517


... One of them is that Sony has (unofficially) announced several new PJs for September. The echos I have suggest that they should then release a PJ comparable to or better than the VW60, but a cheper price.

Ok, you've got my interest: can you provide a link to the Sony CEDIA rumors? I'm getting ready to pick up a vw60. I probably can't wait until November, but I could probably wait until September to see how much of a difference the new models provide...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wohlstad /forum/post/14281947


One needs to be careful with these statements. VW60 is known to need calibration for optimal performance.

I never played with a VW60 out of the box but I know several professionals who did. I was assured that calibrating it properly requires a lot of work, and at least one of them had to go into the maintenance menu which is officially not accessible (except to Sony technicians) and makes the SOny warranty void. That being said, he demoed me a VW60 he had calibrated that way and the image looks great. It's still flater than the RS2 though.


About the colors of the RS2: he is at least partly right. But may be not that much. I know this sounds confusing! But, as you said, you have to see those PJs in action by yourself!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmeyer /forum/post/14282108


Ok, you've got my interest: can you provide a link to the Sony CEDIA rumors? I'm getting ready to pick up a vw60. I probably can't wait until November, but I could probably wait until September to see how much of a difference the new models provide...

I cannot provide a link. It's an unofficial info. I got it from a French Sony authorized dealer with solid reputation. I have other French sources which suggest, indirectly, that he is right (at least for the release of the new models before Christmas and their lower prices).
 

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Discussion Starter #18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey1 /forum/post/14283654


I never played with a VW60 out of the box but I know several professionals who did. I was assured that calibrating it properly requires a lot of work, and at least one of them had to go into the maintenance menu which is officially not accessible (except to Sony technicians) and makes the SOny warranty void. That being said, he demoed me a VW60 he had calibrated that way and the image looks great. It's still flater than the RS2 though.


About the colors of the RS2: he is at least partly right. But may be not that much. I know this sounds confusing! But, as you said, you have to see those PJs in action by yourself!


Are the general color issues oversaturation (i.e. shadow colors pushed too hot), or hue issue (i.e. grass green and sky blue seem tough to dial in)?


While color accuracy is important, I probably find myself more bothered by lack of deep true blacks, contrast, shadow detail, and overall punch than I am with some color tracking issues. Hard to know if the color tracking issues are the same or worse than my Sony 70 SXRD XBR2...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang /forum/post/14283925


Are the general color issues oversaturation (i.e. shadow colors pushed too hot), or hue issue (i.e. grass green and sky blue seem tough to dial in)?


While color accuracy is important, I probably find myself more bothered by lack of deep true blacks, contrast, shadow detail, and overall punch than I am with some color tracking issues. Hard to know if the color tracking issues are the same or worse than my Sony 70 SXRD XBR2...

No lack of deep true black, contrast or shadow detail on the RS2! And colors are actually rather too punchy than not. If you want to get an idea, take a look at the pictures posted by Manuti in his review (link below); I find them as close as possible to what I see on my own screen. Minus the image depth!

http://www.htprojectors.com/Web/Htpr...ne.asp?ID=3492
 

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Discussion Starter #20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey1 /forum/post/14284204


No lack of deep true black, contrast or shadow detail on the RS2! And colors are actually rather too punchy than not. If you want to get an idea, take a look at the pictures posted by Manuti in his review (link below); I find them as close as possible to what I see on my own screen. Minus the image depth!

http://www.htprojectors.com/Web/Htpr...ne.asp?ID=3492

Thanks, though link does work...


Actually, the opinion I was seeking from you -
Are the general color issues oversaturation (i.e. shadow colors pushed too hot), or hue issue (i.e. grass green and sky blue seem tough to dial in)?
What you mean by punchy, and are you compensating with an overall color reduction setting
 
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