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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just when I had almost convinced myself that HDCP wasn't yet "real" enough in the marketplace to be a factor in my PJ selection...

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Samsung Electronics America, Inc., an established innovator in the DVD category, announces the advent of audio/videophile quality DVD entertainment with the introduction of the first 1080i/720p DVD player, the DVD-HD931. Delivering stunning, cinema quality playback of DVDs, the DVD-HD931 uses a completely digital process to deliver a 1080i/720p signal making it ideal for consumers wanting to get the most out of their HD displays.
I've been wavering back and forth between purchasing the Panny 300U and the Sony HS10 as my first projector. After reading about the upcoming (June) $300 Samsung DVD-H931 DVD player that will nicely upscale DVDs to 1080i or 720p, but only through HDCP, I have to say the pendulum has swung rapidly back in the Sony's direction.


Anyone else thinking the same thing?


-tony
 

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With the new generation of DVI players, the HS10 has a big advantage with its extra native resolution and HDCP. Plus, whenever Hi Def DVD's come out, it looks like HDCP will be a given.
 

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The Sammy is not the only one and certainly not the first upscaling DVI-equipped DVD player; check the DVD hardware and >5k forums, the Bravo D1 has these same features and is creating great interest.


Its worth considering that 720p is not a 1:1 match to the HS10 (due to 768 lines resolution) so theoretically a HTPC will still be better. That said, reports are that even without 1:1 mapping the increase in picture quality is still very noticeable, and Bravo is said to be working on a way of providing more detailed configuration to acheive 1:1 mappings on various pjs.


The Bravo apparently has some firmware bugs that allow it to upscale to non-HDCP inputs, so the Panny 300 boys are very interested.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
It seems likely that more and more manufacturers of other devices are going to begin building HTPC-like capabilities into their consumer-friendly devices, but require HDCP to use them.


I'm admittedly a newbie at all of this - just beginning to learn about HDCP. I understand that an HTPC can accomplish the same thing and much more, and I'm considering building one once the hardware and software mature enough that it would be easy enough for anyone in my family to turn it on and get the most out of it. From what I read, most HTPC's are still for the patient hardcore enthusiasts. And then there's also the whole issue of cost. (which explains why many DVD upscaling options are discussed much more in the >5k forum than here in the
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by HTnut
I dont understand the need for HDCP if we are dealing with upconverted 480p. Its still a standard def fomat to begin with and you cant make it HiDef just by upconverting it... Although i dont agree with it for hi def either I at least see their point with it.
HDCP is required to be applied to any DVI output (at *any* resolution) of CSS protected content on a DVD player...it's part of the CSS License, which defines what resolution/format a DVD may be output in for both analog and digital signals. This same license/spec is also what limits NTSC analog output to 480p (which is a function of the limitations of Macrovision's ACP system, which doesn't work on ATSC signals, thus the reason analog 720p/1080i output is verboten). In a nutshell, for CSS encrypted DVDs (the vast majority of DVDs), you can't have *any* output that is not protected by some form of copy protection--be it ACP for analog signals or HDCP/DTCP for digital signals.

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Originally posted by tbacos
I'm considering building one once the hardware and software mature enough that it would be easy enough for anyone in my family to turn it on and get the most out of it. From what I read, most HTPC's are still for the patient hardcore enthusiasts.
I hate to say it, but HTPCs will likely never be as friendly as a stand-alone single purpose DVD player. I use an HTPC to do one thing--DVD playback--and even though the HTPC was built from the ground up for just this single purpose, it's still a royal pain in the butt to live with...after all, it's a PC. The picture can't be beat (at least for film-based material), but it doesn't come easy. As noted, the beauty of using an HTPC is that is falls under a different set of rules (or rather, it doesn't have to obey the rules) for DVD playback...I can take a 480i/60 signal and spit out 1440x960p/72, processed entirely in the digital domain.


The Bravo D1 isn't playing by the CSS rules, so at least for the first production run, it outputs plain vanilla DVI. That will likely be corrected in short order, or V will be sued into Chapter 7 for calling the D1 a DVD player. The Samsung 931 will likely do what it's supposed to do, so HDCP will be required on the display to support the DVI pathway...but you never know...Samsung is the same company that released the HD-1000, which output upscaled 720p/1080i on the component outputs, in clear violation of the CSS license, as thus the DVD licensing rules. Still, in my book, HDCP is as close to a "must have" requirement for anyone shopping for a new PJ as I could imagine. Of course, I've been acused of being a MPAA/HDCP shill on this forum many times, and I could point you to a few people who would note that Firewire/DTCP is the only digital interface you need. :)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by amillians


I hate to say it, but HTPCs will likely never be as friendly as a stand-alone single purpose DVD player. I use an HTPC to do one thing--DVD playback--and even though the HTPC was built from the ground up for just this single purpose, it's still a royal pain in the butt to live with...after all, it's a PC. The picture can't be beat (at least for film-based material), but it doesn't come easy. As noted, the beauty of using an HTPC is that is falls under a different set of rules (or rather, it doesn't have to obey the rules) for DVD playback...I can take a 480i/60 signal and spit out 1440x960p/72, processed entirely in the digital domain.
Before anyone gives up on the HTPC, they should consider combining the strengths of an HTPC with a standalone DVD (don't know if you've tried this yourself, I'm just speaking generally here). All of the software dvd players are a nightmare in one way or another, and they can't deinterlace video worth a damn. So now my htpc looks something like this: panny rp91 dvd player (probably the best interlaced player) -> s-video -> Flyvideo2000 capture card -> Dscaler (easy to use once set up). Svideo to a capture card sounds like crap until you try it. I would never have considered this setup until a guy in the htpc forum recommended it. The flyvideo2000's input is so clean, it's actually being held back by the dvd signal I'm feeding it. Best $50 I ever spent. For anime/video dvd's this setup mops the floor with the software players. For film dvds it is too close to call and I don't really feel like doing an intense A-B session. You'd be suprised how miniscule a difference a full digital path makes vs. a clean analog signal. Good deinterlacing (for video source), post processing, and scaling are infinitely bigger issues by comparison because a mortal like me can actually SEE the difference they make.


For me, the software players are going out the window (TheaterTek, WinDVD Platinum, PowerDVD, Zoomplayer + ffdshow + reclock, I've done em all). Yay, no more registration, registry editing, patches, filter graphs, etc. Only problem is you'll want a P4 2.26 processor or better with Dscaler, but they're getting cheaper.


Mike U.
 

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Quote:
That said, reports are that even without 1:1 mapping the increase in picture quality is still very noticeable
Builty - I don't understand the problem with using 720p in 1:1 mode with HS10. You get the full resolution with 1:1 pixel maping with a small even border around the picture that can simply be zoomed into the masking.


Why wouldn't this be preferable to using full panel but scaled even if there are some unused pixels? When Camby brought his HTPC over, he could only get it (in the short time we had) to output 1080 or 720. The 720p in 1:1 was far superior to upscaling to 1080 or using 720 without 1:1.


I'm kind of surprised that the Holy Grail of HS10 users (at least non-HTPC users) wouldn't be to have all devices output at 720p to use 1:1. I wonder why this doesn't seem to be the case?
 

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HTcrazy,


Are you talking about DVI 720P ? If so, how do achieve 1:1 while using the FULL wide mode ? I'm currently using a Bravo player via DVI (720P), and I could swear the quality is considerably better when I select the 1:1 mode, unfortunately the image letterboxed on all sides (as the HS10 manual states it will).


Hey Bravo, how are those plans for [email protected] DVI output coming along ? ;)
 

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LMDA1 - what size screen are you using with your HS10 + D1? And with the Through setting and 720P output from the D1, how big is the black border all the way around (1", 2", 3"?). I am considering this combo with my HS10 but need to see if I have enough zoom left (one a few clicks) in my system.


Thanks,

dagger
 

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Dagger,


I just bought the HS10 this weekend, and I'm shooting unto a 4:3 screen (84") being used with an older NEC DLP/Panamorph combo. The HS10 is setup temporarily for tweaking and comparing with the DLP, but I can measure tonight and let you know.
 

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LMDA - if you're using any of the through modes then you're already using 1:1 mapping. At 720p there will be pixels left over that form a border, but if you have a screen with a black border (masking) you should be able to zoom the border from the unused pixels into the masking of the screen.


This 1:1 pixel mapping should in theory give you a much better picture. However I've been playing with hi-def over the weekend and found the HS10 does an incredible job with 1080i. So try it both ways and let your eyes be the judge.
 

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For anyone with an HS10, I highly recommend going the htpc route for the 1:1 mapping. It is not near as hard to set up as some would make it seem. Here are the steps I took:


1. Bought a Dell 4550 2.0 GHz w/15" lcd screen for $500 thanks to info from these forums. This computer makes zero noise-right now its sitting next to the couch and I can't tell its on except I'm using it to type this up :).

2. Bought Radeon 9000 vid card w/dvi for dvd playback.

3. Bought TheaterTek dvd software for dvd playback.

4. Installed all on dell plus powerstrip.

5. Used powerstrip to set up [email protected] settings gotten from these forums.

6. Bought 5m dvi cable and hooked up pj to computer.

7. Made sure HS10 Digital setting set to Computer and changed input to Digital. Computer now displaying through pj on screen at [email protected] (the setting that I left windows on from 15" lcd screen).

8. Opened windows display properties settings box and moved slider from [email protected] to the newly created [email protected] setting. The HS10 accepted setting and now showing computer on screen at [email protected] (mode 51 in info page in menu).

9. Insert dvd in pc and TheaterTek opens up and plays dvd. Am awed by the all digital signal path combined w/1:1 mapping.


Watching a dvd is not any harder using htpc than stand alone player. I have always left my pc on all the time so its just a matter of switching input to digital on hs10, inserting dvd in tray and sitting back and watching movie.


I also bought the flyvideo 2000 card so as to try out running cable tv through dscaler to find out if there is any pq difference ifrom cable box which upconverts to 1080i (I have hdtv). I haven't gotten around to it because it would be a pain to switch from regular channels to HDTV channels which use the component out of cable box to pj. Also would have to change windows video settings to [email protected] due to studder. Will check it out to see how dscaler works.
 

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JJay,


Why did you choose TheatreTek? Is it that much better than PowerDVD and WinDVD? Any specific features in TheatreTek that you like (e.g. I like the auto bookmark feature in PowerDVD)? I'm currently using PowerDVD, but would purchase TheatreTek if it is that much better?


Thanks in advance

Xander
 

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Any news of the date the Samsung DVD-H931 will be available?? Can't wait to get my hands on one -


Done a search on the net and find hardly anything about it. Nothing on the SamsungUSA site either??


Geoffrey
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Xander
JJay,


Why did you choose TheatreTek? Is it that much better than PowerDVD and WinDVD? Any specific features in TheatreTek that you like (e.g. I like the auto bookmark feature in PowerDVD)? I'm currently using PowerDVD, but would purchase TheatreTek if it is that much better?


Thanks in advance

Xander
Xander,


I am definitely no expeert on the differences between the various software dvd players At the time I put my htpc together, the cineplayer decoders seemed to be the best by consensus in the htpc forum. TT does look better to me than the version of Powerdvd I have. I read now in the htpc forum that the new version of windvd platinum seems to be very good.


I think the feature set in TT is as good or better than any player out there. I also like the fact that the makers are active on these forums. The latest build of TT allowed the use of fddshow due to the popularity of that filter. In general, I just like the fact that TT has the feel of a stand alone player but has the feature set and upgradability of a software program.


I don't know how much of the increase in pq I can attribute to the TT over DVI at 1:1 mapping to any one piece of the 'video chain' but I do know the combo is amazing and an easily seen pq increase over my previous Philips Q50 over component set up...
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by HTCrazy
Builty - I don't understand the problem with using 720p in 1:1 mode with HS10. You get the full resolution with 1:1 pixel maping with a small even border around the picture that can simply be zoomed into the masking.


Why wouldn't this be preferable to using full panel but scaled even if there are some unused pixels? When Camby brought his HTPC over, he could only get it (in the short time we had) to output 1080 or 720. The 720p in 1:1 was far superior to upscaling to 1080 or using 720 without 1:1.


I'm kind of surprised that the Holy Grail of HS10 users (at least non-HTPC users) wouldn't be to have all devices output at 720p to use 1:1. I wonder why this doesn't seem to be the case?


Fair point Crazy, I hadn't considered the zoom option.


By the way, I've contacted Sigma Designs, the makers of the Bravo's chipset, to try to purchase their reference development board. It contains a PCB with everything needed including DVI/composite/component/optical etc. Just connect a DVD drive via IDE and its a goer. Even includes the remote control.

I'm hoping that being a software engineer myself I can code it up to be a 1:1 mapping HDCP and Macrovision-free beast. If I'm sucessful I'll be making the code available for download.

So far Sigma is not too keen because they have a policy of only selling to major DVD oems.
 
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