[Gerardo2068]

What are the general thoughts on walls distance behind the listening position. I mean the general difference between having close room with a wall just a couple feet behind the listening position and having an open room?

For example I have a 2-channel system for music on the living room. The living room is open to the diner and kitchen, also the ceiling is incline. So I sit 9 Ft from the pair of speakers, at the listening position the ceiling hight is 16 FT and the wall behind me is about 18 Ft

I'm just curious what are the different approaches to room treatment between a single room to a room which is open to other ares like the kitchen and dinner


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[citizen arcane]

I would refer to figure 1 and maybe read a little further on golden ratio.



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[Gerardo2068]

Thanks that's the info I was looking for. Seems I'm sitting just a bit passed the 38%.

 

[FMW]

What are the general thoughts on walls distance behind the listening position.

The more the better. The most acoustically superior rooms I've heard have plenty of room for reflected sound to collect behind the listener without being reflected back so strongly as it would with a close wall.

 

[Gerardo2068]

Thanks


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[bluewizard]

What if we give you the perfect distance?

What can you do about it?

Generally, we make the best use of the space we have available ...because... that's what we have available. Fantasies about the perfect room typically remain in the realm of dreams.

The concern would not be the space behind the seating area, but the location of the Surround Sound Speakers relative to the Seating Area. In some circumstances, Floorstanding Surrounds can work very well. In other circumstance, the situation forces the use of small satellite speakers. Some rooms force the mounting of the Side speakers behind the listening area. In some case, they are mounted above. Really, the room dictates the possibilities.

I think extra space behind the Seating Area is to your advantage, more space for the speakers to unload into. But, again, the critical factor is not the far wall, but the location of the Surround Sound (Side/Rear) speakers in that space.

So, in my opinion, that extra space behind the seating area can be nothing but positive. I would suspect a greater factor would be the room acoustics, and controlling echo on the room. Because the distances are so short, you will not likely get the typical Slap-Back (HELLO .... heeelloooo) echo. Rather the timing will be very short, yet, none the less interfere with sound quality.

So, the real concerned in a larger room are the placement of speakers, and controlling acoustics.

But then ... that's just my opinion.

Steve/bluewizard

 

[Gerardo2068]

Thanks for that great information. I understand the space behind and the wall behind is not the only thing affecting sound but I just wanted to understand what part of the overall sound is responsible for.

Really my next step on my music journey is room treatment but is quite difficult because is also the main living room and my SO would not want me to put panels all over it. Kind of hard to find a solution that looks good and is effective but also doesn't break the bank.

 

[HsuDreamTheater]

I would refer to figure 1 and maybe read a little further on golden ratio.



Sent from the outer reaches using my Commodore 64

I learned all about the golden ratio and Fibonacci sequence ironically by listening to DTS audio track of BT - This Binary Universe. Excellent introspective electronic album, beautiful. The track is called "1.618" but I digress sorry! Just a good recommendation CD/DTS 5.1 album

 

[4DHD]

What if we give you the perfect distance?
The concern would not be the space behind the seating area, but the location of the Surround Sound Speakers relative to the Seating Area. In some circumstances, Floorstanding Surrounds can work very well. In other circumstance, the situation forces the use of small satellite speakers. Some rooms force the mounting of the Side speakers behind the listening area.
So, the real concerned in a larger room are the placement of speakers, and controlling acoustics.

Steve/bluewizard

You do realize, you are commenting about surround speakers in a thread about stereo setup in the 2 channel audio forum.

The placement of surrounds has no bearing on the question asked.

To the OP, having plenty of room behind one's seat is a good thing.
I'm setup in a room 32ft long and sit back from the L/R about 8.5ft and 12ft from the front wall.

 

[Class A]

It depends on the speakers. The Klipsch Heresy's can be put flush to back walls. The old Allison speakers were built to be set up in the corners of the room. A friend of mine had a pair of Snell Type A's and they were designed to go flush against the wall. In my case I have Aerial 6's which are front ported and work well in a smaller room. You'll find speakers will react differently to each room. I have always home demoed before buying.

 

[bluewizard]

You do realize, you are commenting about surround speakers in a thread about stereo setup in the 2 channel audio forum.

The placement of surrounds has no bearing on the question asked.

To the OP, having plenty of room behind one's seat is a good thing.
I'm setup in a room 32ft long and sit back from the L/R about 8.5ft and 12ft from the front wall.

You are right, I over generalized. But my comment still holds. We are a slave to the room we are in, we do the best we can to accommodate that space we have available.

I assume the room is an open floorplan and the 9 foot seating distance represents a section of the space that is the listening area. The remainder and considerable space behind the seating position I assume is another room, or another designated space.

Generally more space in front of the speakers is an advantage. I have a somewhat similar room, about 17ft wide and about 35ft long, but only about 16ft of that 35ft is my actual listening area or living room. I sit about 11ft from the speakers. That extra space does allow me to use very large speakers without a problem. (two 2x8" and two 1x12", no Sub)

So the solution within the room is not going to be some hypothetical perfect distance but rather optimizing the space available by speaker positioning and controlling the room acoustics.

But on your central points, I did over generalize by including a reference to Surround Speakers. However, other than that, I stand by what I said.

Steve/bluewizard

 

[Gerardo2068]

I wonder why space behind the speakers matter , ( I know why it matter on sound reflecting wise) but I mean I saw some pictures of a mastering room and they had towers speakers again as the wall. So what's the word on this?


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[bluewizard]

This may give you some insight into Room Acoustics -

Primer: Acoustics - Absorption & Diffusion
https://www.avforums.com/threads/primer-acoustics-absorption-diffusion.1783772/

Though obviously all I've done is drawn on resources I tracked down on the Internet.

Is there any chance we can get photos of the space so we have a better idea of what we are dealing with? Also, we have the length of the room (9ft + 18ft = ~28ft), and we have a general sense of the high ceilings at 16ft. Also, flat or vaulted ceiling? But no sense of the width of the room.

Next we need a sense of the room acoustics. If this is very minimalist with bare wall, bare floors, and bare flat ceiling, leather furniture, etc.... or a more warm cluttered room with carpet, curtains, bookshelves, etc...?

The first consideration is the Point of First Reflection. These can typically be found with a mirror. Have someone slide a mirror along the side wall until you can see the speaker in the mirror. That is the point of first reflection.

As to the high ceiling, though in general that is to your advantage, and especially so if it is a vaulted or sloped ceiling. It depends on how the ceiling is finished. Flat Plaster, not so good, Acoustical tile or textured ceiling, better. You can hang what are referred to as Sound Clouds from the ceiling. Really this is just an acoustical panel hanging horizontally from the ceiling. That would be the last thing I would consider, but it is something I would consider.

Depending on your budget, sound or acoustic panels need not look drab. Auralex and several other makers of acoustic panels have a long list of artists that have made their artwork available to be printed on the covering fabric of the panels. Or, many will print photos you've taken onto the panels.

http://sonic-print.com/

http://sonic-print.com/IndArtist.aspx

http://sonic-print.com/IA-AC/Ali_Cook.aspx

http://sonic-print.com/IA-GM/Greg_Menkedick.aspx

http://www.acoustimac.com/acousticart/

http://www.acoustimac.com/acousticart/art-categories

Acoustic panels definitely need not be drab.

While Absorption is important, too much can make a room dull. Equally important is Diffusion, or the breaking up and scattering of sound waves. More difficult to incorporate in a traditional room, but in a more modern room, they can come off as abstract art.

http://www.auralex.com/products/diffusion/

http://www.auralex.com/product/quadratec/

http://www.auralex.com/product/waveprism/

http://www.auralex.com/product/profusor/

You will also find many YouTube videos dealing with the subject of Room Acoustics. Both in the nature of room acoustics, the treatment of rooms, and making your own DIY Acoustic Panels or Diffusers.

In your case, the high ceilings and long room minimize the effect of room acoustics ... up to a point. So, you are in good shape to start with.

Steve/bluewizard

 

[Gerardo2068]

Thanks. I have looked online and youtube. I got the basic idea how things work. I will check the link. I will look at those with pictures on them

 

[bluewizard]

As to the placement of the speakers themselves relative to the near walls, I find that the more bass heavy a speakers is, the more space it needs.

I had some very bass heavy JBL Stadium Venue speakers, that were not happy with 24" behind them. But my newer Diamond 9.6, even though they are the same size and configurations as the JBL, are content with about 10" to 12" behind the speaker. I think generally, to prevent compromising the sound, and dependent on the specific speaker, you should strive for a minimum of 12" behind the speakers. In my case that simply means moving the speakers forward even with the front of the TV/Equipment stand.

As to the space at the sides of the speakers. I would say generally no less than 18", and 24" or more would be better.

As I said before we are slaves to our space. But we are also slaves to our perception. I've seen many photos of people who insisted on shoving their speaker literally back against the wall, even though it was clearly not necessary.

The closer to a boundary wall, whether to the side or behind, the more the bass is boosted. That would seem like a good thing - free bass. But as with anything in audio, nothing comes without a price. The more you bump up the boundary bass the more it muddies the midrange. On my JBL speakers it was terrible, which is why I finally got rid of them. Though in a room that could have allowed the JBL about 24" to 36" of space all around them, they certainly would have sounded better.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard

 

[Gerardo2068]

Thanks for the info. This is the set up. Is not final. I need to find a permanent way to run the wires. As you can see the wall are bare.

If I could I think I should go with bigger speakers but 683s2 were on sale at Audio Store and that was my Max budget

 

[4DHD]

It depends on the speakers. The Klipsch Heresy's can be put flush to back walls. The old Allison speakers were built to be set up in the corners of the room. A friend of mine had a pair of Snell Type A's and they were designed to go flush against the wall. In my case I have Aerial 6's which are front ported and work well in a smaller room. You'll find speakers will react differently to each room. I have always home demoed before buying.

Now we have two different subjects, from what was asked, originally.
We are talking of the space behind the seating, as opposed to the seat right against the wall.
And having a seat right against the wall produces unwanted reflections mixing with the direct sound.

I wonder why space behind the speakers matter , ( I know why it matter on sound reflecting wise) but I mean I saw some pictures of a mastering room and they had towers speakers again as the wall. So what's the word on this?


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In a typical house environment, typical size rooms, the more space you have around the L/R speaker, both to the sides and behind, the bigger the soundstage.
There are a few exceptions, very few, and usually horn loaded ones.

The more space to the side walls the wider the soundstage;
The more space behind the speakers, the deeper the soundstage.

And even if one is setting up a MC system, the proper placement of the L/R mains is still the primary concern.

 

[4DHD]

If I could I think I should go with bigger speakers but 683s2 were on sale at Audio Store and that was my Max budget

Tower speakers, placed right will give you the soundstage you want.

If you find they're lacking bass, then add a sub to create a 2.1 system...which I've personally had since 1979.

 

[Gerardo2068]

Tower speakers, placed right will give you the soundstage you want.



If you find they're lacking bass, then add a sub to create a 2.1 system...which I've personally had since 1979.

Thanks. I got a sub but most time I rather not turn it on. I think I need bass management

 

[4DHD]

Thanks. I got a sub but most time I rather not turn it on. I think I need bass management

There are different ways of doing bass management.
With my 2.2 & 7.2 systems (same mains, different pre-amp & AVR), the mains are run full range for stereo music, w/sub XO @ 50htz.
And XO @ 60 htz for movies, w/ sub @ 80 htz.

Works very good for both.