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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I will try to keep this short and sweet, to the point.


I'm puting in a dedicated home theater and want to go with a 2.35 CH system. I have not yet purchased a projector. The problem is (among others) with the scaling. I guess I don't really fully understand the concept. I know you have to stretch the picture virtically, then the lens stretches it horizontally to make a perfect 2.35 image. I don't understand how there are very, very few projectors and dvd players that can do this. I recently bought an Oppo, but it doesn't do the scaling needed. I think I read a post where Alan asked them about a firmware upgrade and they pretty much said not anytime soon, if ever.


My original budget was going to get me an IF4805, but over the last couple of months I decided I wanted the full 720P resolution, so I thought maybe a PannyAE700. Now lately I'm thinking I can get a better 720pDLP for just a couple hundred more than the Panasonic. Like maybe a BenQ7700. Now that I've waited this long, maybe in a couple of months I could get the BenQ at the price I can afford, but that still doesn't solve the scaling issue... or maybe a newer model of something that can do 720P and the proper scaling in my price range, but that's a big maybe.


And wasn't there a special powere buy on that anamorphic lens from Panamorph? I wasn't even privy to CIH then and missed the boat on that one, and even if I did get it, who knows if it'll work with whatever pj I did get. In order to afford to do this. I'd have to get that cheaper Panamorph lens. So should I go ahead and get it?... even though it's $100 more now? Will it be too late if I wait?


Another thing I'm battling is my basement only has a 7ft ceiling, so the seating will have to be just behind the ceiling mounte pj. So having the shortest throw distance is imparative. I'm 6'5" tall so if I stand up and cast a shadow... that would suck!


At the very most I could have about $2500-$2800 for the PJ, lens, and however I can do the scaling. Do you think it's possible to petition Oppo to have firmware by the end of the year? Am I expecting way too much for the budget I have??


If I told you guys how many hours I've spent reading this forum in the last couple of months you'd think I was full of it. All suggestions and advice are welcome.

MY BRAINS ARE LIKE SCRAMBLED EGGS!!! MAYBE I'LL JUST SLICE THE TOP OFF MY HEAD AND MAKE AN OMLETTE AND BE DONE WITH IT!


Dave
 

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Hi, Smarty-pants!


One way to have total control over scaling is to use a home theater PC as your DVD player. That's what I'm doing, and it works extremely well. Using the fabulous TheaterTek DVD software for playback, the image is spectacular! Add a bit of time automating your system with the Girder package, and it becomes easy to use, too! If you already have a PC, you sure can't beat the $100 in software costs!


Good Luck!

MarkF
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I have an old Gateway POS computer taht I bought for $200 bucks. I use it to surf the Internet. It craps out on me all the time too and I have to reboot it. My brother-in-law is pretty computer savy though and maybe he could help. However I really don't have room anywhere in my theater for this big hunk-a-junk, so probably not. Although as a last resort... maybe. Thanks for the suggestion Mark.



Also if anyone was wondering, I was thinking of my 2.35 screen being 106"-108" wide, if the pj throw/seating will allow it.
 

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You can still simply use the zoom of the projector to maintain the constant height. You need to have at least a 1.3x:1 zoom factor to do this and you will not get the benefit of using the whole 16X9 panel for a 2.35:1 movie but it will work and is a no cost option to see if a constant height setup will work for you.


Laters,

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Jeff

I've done a lot of siferin' already and I'm pretty sure I can do it, it's just getting the scaling done for the best picture that is the main problem. Though what exactly is meant by "1.3x:1 zoom factor"?... and would this factor hold true when an anamorphic lens is in place also?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Oh ya, I also wanted to ask what exactly is the difference between a virtical lens and a horizontal lens?
 

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Hi, S-P!


The zoom ratio is the difference between the smallest and the largest image that a projector can throw at any specific throw distance, by varying just the zoom. A number of projectors have zoom capabilities in this range.


There are two different types of anamorphic lenses that can be used in this application. Lenses like the Panamorph squeeze the image vertically (a "vertical" lens). Lenses like the ISCO expand the image horizontally (a "horizontal" lens). They do exactly the same thing, except that horizontal expansion results in an overall larger image than vertical compression (even though both images will have the same aspect ratio). Companies like Prismasonic offer both types of lenses (prisms). Which one is right for you is a function of the projector that you're using, the throw distance, and the size screen.


Cheers!

MarkF
 

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samsung hd841 (and the others in the series I'd guess) have the ability to do the scaling desired. Called 'EZ View'


So does the Zenith DVB318, but it isn't push of a button.


People will debate the merits of the pictures out of both of these units, but they will be a bit easier to handle (and cheaper) than an HTPC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. This is more like what I was after. None of the Samsung dvd players are in the "sticky". So then is it possible that there are other players, projectors, etc that CAN do the scaling only no one is awarwe of it yet?

I think Alan should add a sub-list of all players and PJs that can NOT do the scaling so that we may have a reference point of some kind.


Also, I don't understand how the IF4805 can do the scaling, but none of the other IF PJs can???... abd like-wise with the Op.H79??? Does anyone have an answer to this?


BTW, from past years experience, how soon can we expect the prices on current PJs drop?... and how soon will the new PJs be available? I know no one knows, but what's a good guess?


I know all this stuff is probably pretty repetative and boring to you guys, but I really appreciate the input and advice. Thank you.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants
Also, I don't understand how the IF4805 can do the scaling, but none of the other IF PJs can???
Not so. I can verify both 4805 and 7210 will anamorphically stretch a 2.35ar image (make tall/skinny) in preparation for a horizontal stretch lens.


In fact, I believe most current projectors will do so. Tom "guitarman" has used every Optoma model made the last 2 years and could verify that line's CIH worthiness if you PM him.


I recommend you rely on the PJ for anamorphic stretching. That way you could take several 2.35ar sources (DVD, HD-Cable, HTPC, whatever new stuff coming) and know you could handle them all.
 

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Quote:
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. This is more like what I was after. None of the Samsung dvd players are in the "sticky". So then is it possible that there are other players, projectors, etc that CAN do the scaling only no one is awarwe of it yet?

I think Alan should add a sub-list of all players and PJs that can NOT do the scaling so that we may have a reference point of some kind.
There will more products that can do the stretch than those in the sticky. Alan will add more when finds them or is told by users that have the capable products.

Quote:
Also, I don't understand how the IF4805 can do the scaling, but none of the other IF PJs can???... abd like-wise with the Op.H79??? Does anyone have an answer to this?
2.35 setups aren't very common so the stretch feature isn't needed for the average user. As 2.35 setups become more common, more and more projectors/dvd players will have this feature.

Quote:
I don't understand how there are very, very few projectors and dvd players that can do this. I recently bought an Oppo, but it doesn't do the scaling needed. I think I read a post where Alan asked them about a firmware upgrade and they pretty much said not anytime soon, if ever.
Same as above.

Quote:
BTW, from past years experience, how soon can we expect the prices on current PJs drop?... and how soon will the new PJs be available? I know no one knows, but what's a good guess?
Ask this or do a search in the Projector forum. You'll get more feedback.

Quote:
I'm puting in a dedicated home theater and want to go with a 2.35 CH system. I have not yet purchased a projector. The problem is (among others) with the scaling. I guess I don't really fully understand the concept. I know you have to stretch the picture virtically, then the lens stretches it horizontally to make a perfect 2.35 image.
Read the FAQ thread.

Quote:
And wasn't there a special powere buy on that anamorphic lens from Panamorph? I wasn't even privy to CIH then and missed the boat on that one, and even if I did get it, who knows if it'll work with whatever pj I did get. In order to afford to do this. I'd have to get that cheaper Panamorph lens. So should I go ahead and get it?... even though it's $100 more now? Will it be too late if I wait?
The Panamorph P752 is a very good lens. Unbeatable for the price. It has a large aperture so it will work on more projectors than the other lenses.

Quote:
Another thing I'm battling is my basement only has a 7ft ceiling, so the seating will have to be just behind the ceiling mounte pj. So having the shortest throw distance is imparative. I'm 6'5" tall so if I stand up and cast a shadow... that would suck!
Too short a throw ratio can be a problem with anamorphic lenses. Depends on the throw distance/screen width.

Quote:
If I told you guys how many hours I've spent reading this forum in the last couple of months you'd think I was full of it. All suggestions and advice are welcome.

MY BRAINS ARE LIKE SCRAMBLED EGGS!!! MAYBE I'LL JUST SLICE THE TOP OFF MY HEAD AND MAKE AN OMLETTE AND BE DONE WITH IT!
2.35 Constant Height takes abit to get your head around but worth it.


Your options for scaling: HTPC, Standalone scaler, DVD Player, Projector
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by acksnay
Not so. I can verify both 4805 and 7210 will anamorphically stretch a 2.35ar image (make tall/skinny) in preparation for a horizontal stretch lens.


In fact, I believe most current projectors will do so. Tom "guitarman" has used every Optoma model made the last 2 years and could verify that line's CIH worthiness if you PM him.


I recommend you rely on the PJ for anamorphic stretching. That way you could take several 2.35ar sources (DVD, HD-Cable, HTPC, whatever new stuff coming) and know you could handle them all.


Good news to here that more PJs can do the job, thing is though, right now I can only afford the Panamorph 752 which is a virtical stretch lens, so then wouldn't I need the picture to scale horizontally, then the lens stretch it vertically?? Am I correctc on this? Do you know what other PJs do the proper stretch for this type of lens?

Having the PJ do the stretching is what I'd love to do, so hopefully I can do just that.
 

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It's the same difference. You start with a tall/skinny (letterboxed) 16:9 image that you either:


a) stretch wider with a horizontal lens (constant height), or

b) squish height with a vertical lens (constant width)


Where can this lad go to see comparative before/after pics?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ok, forget post #12, I think I was confused there. I suposedly have a high IQ but I think someone made a mistake there. This stuff realy has my head spinning.

I know the end result is the same size picture on the screen, but if I was interpreting the Prismasonic calculator correctly (maybe not), then the projector would have to have a larger picture before the lens is put into place for a virtical squeeze lens, thus pushing the projector farther back from the screen?... creating a longer throw distance necessary? (
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Here's another question...

Can I use an additional short throw lens attached to the PJ in conjunction with an anamorphic lens? They do make those right? Are they expensive?
 

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You're right in that given a fixed PJ position, horizontal stretch yields a substantially larger image than with a vertical squeeze lens.


I have no experience with PJ lens attachments, but my guess is that buying the right anamorphic lens to start with would be less expensive.


A thought if you'd prefer the CIH path: contact Prismasonic and email if any of their previous H500/1000 buyers are looking to upgrade to the new H600/1200. If you'd consider a used lens, perhaps you could make your own deal.


As far as your 7' ceiling goes ... that doesn't have to be a problem with the right projector. What you need is a 0 offset throw or a PJ design with lens shift. That way the PJs lens is perpendicular to (or no higher than) the top of your screen. Add the 752 to the brew, and you drop the image just an inch or two, still workable.


Asheville. Still as beautiful as you remember it. Growth hasn't been too outrageous, though whatever little flat land has been available is pretty much in development. Two lane roads (Rte 25, Fairview Rd, Cane Creek Rd, Long Shoals Rd) are now 5 lanes. Downtown Lexington Ave got resettled, then hippified, and finally gentrified in the past 20 years. The food here is really incredible. Authentic indian, thai, cajun, european coffee houses, vietnamese, local microbreweries, make for some awesome eating. The music scene just gets better 'n better. Bel Cher summer festival draws a quarter to half million people (the locals of course flee that weekend). City hall/Vance monument/public park area is being redesigned with outdoor amphitheater. River district is becoming reclaimed as an artists community near West Asheville and sports complex nearer to Oteen. More art galleries than could ever survive. Three major health food stores and a fourth on the way. School system still sprouting experimental chapters. And of course the 2004 century flood that had crested the Swannanoa river so high there were kayakers rowing down Biltmore Village.


Still a nice place to raise a family. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
That's a good idea, asking Prismasonic about a used one. Maybe I'll try that.


Most of that stuff sure wasn't there back when. Of course I wasn't privy to most of the adult scene since I was only 12.

Oh the Swannanoa River, I used to fish it all the time. Wouldn't want to eat the fish though, it was dirrrrrty back then, really muddy. Used to live on Swannanoa Ave in fact. Sounds like you love it there so good for you. Next time we get down NC I'll have to see if we can't plan it the same time as Bel Cher so we can stop through and check it out.
 

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Quote:
2.35 setups aren't very common so the stretch feature isn't needed for the average user.
I wonder if the 4805 designer had anamorphic lenses in mind at all. More likely he envisioned people wanting to be rid of the dreaded bars at any cost despite the obvious geometric distortion. "Damn, this thing is supposed to be widescreen! What's up with them bars???"

Quote:
Not that it really makes that much difference because all I can afford is the 752 unit.
Well, it's a really nice unit, regardless of price (original retail was $2200 or something). I see myself going to the Prismasonic 1200 at some point when I go 720p, but not for image quality reasons...I like the horizontal stretch (no drop) and the bypass mode. At the moment, using such a lens with the 4805 would result in an image a bit too large for my seating distance (at 1.7x width, I'm "stretching" it a bit ;) as it is), even at the smallest zoom. Having said that, a rave from 4805-defector Acksnay might push me over the edge.


Quote:
That's a good idea, asking Prismasonic about a used one. Maybe I'll try that.
I'm going to buy Acksnay's when he goes back to his 4805.
 
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