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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I havent been on here a lot lately I personally own a 6010 and I just asked by the Mom to find her a 60" TV.


It has been over 2 years since I have even looked at TV's and could someone just give me a quick answer is the Kuro still the best thing going? or is there a LCD at 60" that is close? (we are talking 65 years old afterall...)


Where can I buy one? My source Invisiondisplays appears to be gone.


Thanks!
 

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Pioneers are still the best consumer displays out there, but they're no longer being produced. Pioneer stopped making them as of April 2009. 9G Kuros still beat 2009 and in all probability 2010 plasmas/lcds, but they're getting quite hard to find.


The 60" models especially so since there was far less production. If you can find one for $4k or less, that is considered a very good price. It's unlikely you'll find one at those prices though. Other options would be to get a Laser or local-dimming LED. Alternatively you could go with a DLP on the cheap and then upgrade in a few years once the market can offer something to par with a Kuro.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It has to be able to hang on wall....whats the next best thing to a Kuro in a 60" without getting outrageous in price. 3-3.5k price range max??


They have a smaller 42" Sharp Aquos in their bedroom which they seem to be perfectly happy with.
 

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Samsung 58B8500 LED LCD with local dimming or Sammy 58B850/860 in plasma. Either one less than 1.5" deep, new filter tech allows great PQ in both bright and dark environments. B8500 has less quality off-axis viewing if that's a concern. Stunning PQ but not the ink black of Kuro. Superb color accuracy. Best styling in the business.
 

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I'd have to agree since Panasonic seem to be backtracking and now not even admitting that rising black levels are a problem with their sets. For wall-mounting get a Pioneer if you can find one in your pricerange. If not, go for local-dimming LED. There's some trade-offs going that route, but I'll take flashlighting over MLL looking like grayscale on an LCD.
 

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Yeah, screen uniformity with backlighting is a problem but at least the 8500 is not edge lit. The four corners look in a dark room with a dark scene isn't pretty. Pioneer is still the choice if available but the B850/860 is very impressive for ridiculously low money now. Can wire hang on discs on the wall very flat like a painting. Very cool. Of course if adjustment is needed that's not the way to go.
 

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I agree with ClarkeBar. I own a Sammy 58B860 plasma. I am very pleased with it. PQ is outstanding but black levels are not totally inky. It is hard to notice, however, on my set given the high quality of the image. Very pleased. I would recommend a professional calibration to get the maximum value from any set.
 

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Good to hear from an owner. I am a finger snap away from buying the 58B860 as I type.

Cannot get over how bad it makes the Panny V10s look in the local BB/Magnolias. Green tint, THX color issues, etc. and of course, lightened black levels. Not that Sammy is without negatives but I can deal with them if they arise. I am so glad I passed on the 54V10.


What is the Cinema Smooth like with the B860? Having any 1080P/24 issues like screen brightening?
 

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Image retention. That's the primary issue on Samsung plasmas. They are much more prone to it. The LED LCD's... well probably shouldn't have IR issues so much, but all the usual LCD issues I'm sure you're familiar with. Neither are terrible sets.
 

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I bought a B860 recently to play with and the blacks definitely lightened when Cinema Smooth was engaged. So I would definitely not buy a 2009 Samsung expecting anything out of the Cinema Smooth @ 96 hz. The blacks were not all that great to begin with, and so there was no way I would use that Cinema Smooth and make them even worse. It was a useless feature for me. Hopefully Samsung has fixed it for 2010. Oh, and the Internet widgets. They were so slow that they were useless for me as well. Do not let the Internet widgets sway you either. I considered them a gimmick and a waste of time. They would be cool if you didn't have to wait forever and a day for them to load. I have like 20Mb/s download via FIOS, so I have plenty of bandwidth. Hopefully the 2010 models will feature much faster loading widgets.


dlplover is correct, Samsungs do get IR faster than Pio/Panny. I got it fairly quick and easy on the B860. But it would also go away rather quickly if I ran the scrollbar or some fullscreen content for a few minutes. Since I have had plasmas before and I don't game it was not much of an issue for me. Not anything to get worried about. I don't get freaked out by a little IR like some people. Some people just don't have the temperament and start getting all freaked out and paranoid at the first sign of IR. You just have to baby a Samsung more than say, a Pioneer. I don't ever have to run any scrolling function on my Pio. It's a superior design, I must confess.


The other main advantage I easily noticed on the Pio is that it is clearly in a class by itself when it comes to horizontal line bleed. I've seen obvious line bleed pretty much equally on both Sammys and Pannys, enough that I wouldn't declare one to be better than the other in this area. But the Pioneer is clearly best at not showing this. I had a Hitachi plasma last year (X902) that was clearly the worst when it came to line-bleed. So different brands show it to different degrees, and the Pioneers are way ahead of Samsung/Panasonic when it comes to not showing these ghost lines.


I honestly thought that the B860's had a darker filter than the filter on the KRP's/Elites, but when I set the B860 just below the 500M in the living room, the filters looked remarkably similar, and I don't think the Sammy's was any darker to tell you the truth. D-Nice a while back did say that the filters on the 8 series Samsungs were similar to the Kuros (Elites and monitors have better filters than 5020/6020 non-Elites), but I didn't fully believe him at the time. I thought for sure the B860 was darker. At least the Nov 2009 build I got didn't seem any darker. Didn't seem any lighter either, just saying. There was not a striking difference between the two. They were more alike than not.
 

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As far as everyone talking about these rising black levels....The 58v10 and 65v10 seem to be unaffected. I have a 58v10 with well over 1,000 hours and my picture has gotten nothing but better. i made my decision using information I gained on this forum and I made the CORRECT choice. Go ahead and tell the guy to avoid Panasonic, because SOME people out there with mainly g10s have a problem. But avoid telling him that MORE people are not satisfied with their Samsung 8 series because it sounds like you're reving up a corvette in the living room. It has been proven that the bigger screens that he is looking for are nearly unaffected in Panasonic models especially the v10. I'm not a Panasonic "fanboy". However, I do own a perfectly good 58v10 and I get tired of people telling someone that is looking for honest information a bunch of BS. The Samsung 58 inch 8 series is NOT a better set than the 58v10 so don't tell someone that it is. If you're going to talk up a set and talk down another to someone who is uninformed please include the pros and cons of both sets also. It is a thinner set with better colors. Blacks and overall picture quality do not even compare though.
 

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Glad you are happy with your purchase. IMO the 58V10 can be considered a better set only if the black level does not rise, the THX isn't screwed, the obvious green tint in the greyscale mode isn't present, etc. A lot of ifs.


Panasonic has obviously made some adjustments to the late arriving 58" and 65" V models...or the larger sets are simply not affected by the voltage changes in the same way...or subject to the sudden flaring of MLL even with the planned adjustments. The same cannot be said for the smaller sets in the V series. The larger screens thus far show no doubling, or worse, tripling of MLL in the first 1000 hours or so. Hopefully that will continue. But there is no guarantee as Panny has basically admitted all of its sets MLL will elevate through planned voltage adjustments. And the issue isn't simply limited to the G series however, as anyone can see from looking at the charts. The smaller sizes of the Vs are affected as well, along with some S1s or lower models. Can you say Pandemic? Perhaps the 58 and 65 V10s are on the more gradual schedule of adjustment and everything is working as it should. What then does that mean to final Black level? Where will it end up? Panny isn't saying. But we are assured it will be 'excellent'. Big Whoop.


It may well be (and I suspect that it is) that the large V10s I see on display at Magnolia have gone well past the hours needed to see any changes in black level. This would account for their washed out appearance and total lack of 'pop', leaving aside the green tinting or the yellow THX. Now as to whether these sets are older in production or not I cannot say. But the eyes do not lie. The comparative PQ hanging on the walls of several Magnolias show me what is what in the real world, not the review world or the only under the first few thousand hours of use world, which is essentially the same thing. Sadly IMO, they are now clearly inferior to the Sammy B860 in PQ, running the exact same feed, with the same connection type, in the same darkened environment and using similar PQ modes. I'm sure they still maintain the full 1080P motion advantage with their processing however, something Samsung clearly needs to address, along with early IR. But still, if the Cinema Smooth feature wasn't glitched, IMO the B860 would be close to the total package in todays non-Pioneer world. The styling and thin profile is just icing on the cake. That opinion sadly makes more of a statement about the state of plasma production today with all manufacturers and likely shows how far the ball has dropped since Pioneer's departure. Forgetting about product development for a moment...does QC even exist anymore?


Don't misunderstand, I wanted to buy Panny, the 54V10 in fact, for a very long time. I passed, knock on wood. If I had bought it and my set had the more gradual voltage adjustment changes, I would likely be a very happy camper, even in the face of this BL bruhaha. But when it has been shown that getting a severe adjustment set is a clear roll of the dice, then caution is advised. CNET has said just as much even though they use the longer term black level performance language. They have reduced the Panny's ratings to reflect they are no better than any other set in class. Other sites around the web have already taken note of the issue and may well follow CNET's example...with the clear exception of CNET.au which seems to be in serious denial after having been publicly punked. Is that Ty "Lower the brightness on the remote" Pendlebury video still up and running?
I am currently awaiting a reply from Shane Buettner of Home Theater mag, after the publisher passed along my inquiry, to see if they will address their ratings/editors choices as well. We can only hope the 2010s will be everything they look to be at first glance. Let's also hope they stay that way. 2 straight years of Panny screw-ups and their Plasma division may well be on the way to becoming dog-food. Hyperbole to be sure.


Them's the facts, as best I can misrepresent them.
The B860 comparison stuff though is just my opinion. And after having written all that ... and getting back on topic, I'd still rather have a Pioneer.
Nothing Pio in between 50" and 60" though. As Charlie Brown would say ... Rats.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar /forum/post/18247710


I'd still rather have a Pioneer.
Nothing Pio in between 50" and 60" though. As Charlie Brown would say ... Rats.

Thats really what it boils down to. My now "ancient" 5080 KURO still looks better than pretty much everything out there right now and Ive seen them all somewhere. Even when these new sets are in peoples homes and at least setup somewhat reasonably... they just cant "do it" like my KURO does it.


I get sad and scared thinking about what Id buy if the KURO gave out. What a nightmare of a thought! I know that Sammy and Panny are OK and all but once you've set your standards at a certain level its hard to go lower than that standard. My expectations for black level performance and video processing are very high right now. Thanks a LOT, Pio.... you expose us to the best and then go away, leaving us surrounded by mediocrity. RATS!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhowdy03 /forum/post/18247001


As far as everyone talking about these rising black levels....The 58v10 and 65v10 seem to be unaffected.

They are affected. Why is it so hard for you 58/65" V10 owners to accept that your displays idle luminance levels are going to rise? If you do not notice the rise, great! However, that does not change the fact that the panel has code to make the idle liminance levels rise.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar /forum/post/18248008


s2mikey,


Oh, go wipe down that glossy bezel.

Will do.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerhC /forum/post/18244396


Where can I buy one? My source Invisiondisplays appears to be gone.


Thanks!

Start calling every BB within driving distance that has a Magnolia department. I simply walked into my local store and asked; they had two 101FDs NIB.


Now they have only one



You never know, until you ask
 
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