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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I hate using words to describe sound, but, what else can you do? My Marantz SR9600 and PSB Image T65's can sometimes tend to sound a little harsh, of course, it depends on the recording. I'm wondering if there are different amps of similar power that I could use with or instead of this receiver (replacing the 9600 with a pre/pro) that may sound softer, warmer, smoother, or whatever the case may be. Not as intensely detailed and bright/harsh. Don't get me wrong, there are times when the receiver sounds great, absolutely amazing, but, sometimes it just sounds a bit biting. I admit it may actually be the recordings. I'm sure with other speakers the sound is not the same, but I like the way my speakers have sounded with the SR8000 and SR 14EX I had previously, and the matching of the drivers between each separate speaker in my 7.1 setup is amazing, so before I try other speakers, I'd like to try other amps.


I will try to tame the room acoustics and perhaps trim the treble and try the auto-eq function etc, but, in addition to trying that, I'd like to explore other amp options. I don't want to spend a fortune, so I'd prefer cheaper suggestions. Not sure if I'd replace the SR9600 with a pre-pro just yet, but I'd like to try some amps first. Can't afford the ICE stuff from B & O and Axiom, as that's over $5 K CDN when you include taxes and a pre-pro would push $6K. Are there any amps that would sound different than the SR9600? How about the other Marantz amps like the MM9000 or a few MA500's or MA700's? Outlaw amps? Other 5 and 7 channel amps.


In the end, it could be the pre-amp of the SR9600 that is responsible for the sound character, so I could be needing to replace the pre-amp, but anyhow, I'll start looking at amps first. If I need to replace the 9600 then another pre-pro may do. I've actually heard that the Marantz AV8003 is nice. On the flip-side, I could actually try the AV8003 with the amp section of the SR9600. I would never run like this long-term, as it's wasteful in my opinion. The SR9600 is better performing all the work for somebody else's system, but, it could be a test that could be done.


Anyhow, if you have any suggestions for a smoother sounding amp, please let me know.


thanks,

 

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try changing the speakers...or taming the room response.

Changing the amp will not make much a change..if any.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Neutral amp could work. I'm willing to research different amps.


I will tame the room response as much as I can. I don't want to change the speakers, as they have sounded great with previous amps. Changing the amp can make a difference, as it already has.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc /forum/post/15586712


I hate using words to describe sound, but, what else can you do? My Marantz SR9600 and PSB Image T65's can sometimes tend to sound a little harsh, of course, it depends on the recording.

Along with the recording it's speakers and room acoustics that are the main determinants of sound. Amps have little or no influence. Where you sit and how the speakers are pointed can be a strong factor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson /forum/post/15587334


Along with the recording it's speakers and room acoustics that are the main determinants of sound. Amps have little or no influence. Where you sit and how the speakers are pointed can be a strong factor.

I can't see the amp as having little or no influence. When I changed receivers, the sound changed.
 

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Not about seeing, about hearing. When you changed receivers, you saw the sound changed, you didn't hear it changed.


Level-matched, unclipped amplification of identical input signals results in indistinguishable outputs to listeners. Change the inputs, difference. Change the levels, difference. Change clipping, difference. Everything equal in, operation within specs, no difference.


You should know this stuff by now.


williak
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by williak /forum/post/15588056


Not about seeing, about hearing. When you changed receivers, you saw the sound changed, you didn't hear it changed.


Level-matched, unclipped amplification of identical input signals results in indistinguishable outputs to listeners. Change the inputs, difference. Change the levels, difference. Change clipping, difference. Everything equal in, operation within specs, no difference.


You should know this stuff by now.


williak

I don't want to start a whole other discussion. While it is possible that there wasn't as much change with the receiver change as I feel there is, I know there was a change. Things sound differently, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed. When I switched receivers from the SR 6200 to the SR7000 to the 8000 then the SR 14EX, believe me, I noticed a difference each time. Going from the 14EX to the SR9600 felt like the sound was almost identical, except there is this heightened detail that is trouble-some for lesser recordings in particular, but overall, the unit sounds much brighter.
 

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Amps make so much difference its unbelievable


Especially old analogue ones vs digital ones.. i mean im still not used to my denon 2809, and prefer the sound of the analogue ones any day (from old integras to marantz to luxman.. they all sound better than this digital denon)

I guess its just what your used to, older amps give much more feeling to the sound and a much wider and natural soundstage.

Its also not for nothing that most high end stereo amplifiers are still using tubes.

Even though they are much worse on paper than the new digital methods...

They even cost a truckload of $$, yet people buy them..


The new digital ones are over correcting things imo..

Phase corrections, frequency response correction, time domain corrections, one has to ponder if they really correct anything, or just mess it all up.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc /forum/post/15588576


...felt like the sound was almost identical, except there is this heightened detail that is trouble-some for lesser recordings in particular, but overall, the unit sounds much brighter.

This is crap you read from some "audiophile" magazine or heard from some bloviator trying to score "golden ear" points on a forum somewhere - hopefully NOT this one! Either way, it is nonsense through and through. This stuff is not magic and your investiture of mystery and wonder into what is, after all, simply an engineering exercise is silly in the extreme.


Getting back to the real world, you have expressed some real concerns about the sound quality of your system. In order to change what you do NOT like about your system, you must first identify what exactly is producing your dissatisfaction. I suggest you do a bit of research on what system components have the greatest effect on sound heard by listeners. You will most certainly discover some areas (speakers, room treatments, etc.) that have significant and REAL effects on what you hear out of your system. Work these areas, keeping others constant, until you get what you are after rather than chasing ephemera like amplifier and digital source differences. Good luck.


williak
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ /forum/post/15586944


try changing the speakers...or taming the room response.

Changing the amp will not make much a change..if any.

+1 Get different speakers. Most modern, solid-state class AB amps don't color the sound. The differences will be minimal if any. Speakers and room acoustics impact sound more than anything else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am open to anything and I am willing to try different speakers. Can either of you suggest a tower speaker that is 39" or shorter and has frequency response down to 30 hz - 3 dB?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc /forum/post/15591441


I am open to anything and I am willing to try different speakers. Can either of you suggest a tower speaker that is 39" or shorter and has frequency response down to 30 hz - 3 dB?

That's your problem right there - your speakers are too short and so they go too low. I suggest stands to raise them up so you can get them to above 40" which should get you to over 40 Hz. Then, you'll have something to work with.


Best of luck and don't break a nut lifting them.


williak
 

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cpc,


I was, of course, gently poking fun at your predicament in suggesting your raise your speakers.


That said, you do invite a modicum of ridicule after hundreds of posts on just about every audio forum in both the U.S. and Canada every one of which harps on one or more of three themes:


1. You can't stand listening to your speakers (too bright)


2. You can't stand looking at your speakers (too tall)


3. You can't stand the thought you bought speakers you can't stand (too expensive)


In lieu of recommending psychiatric services (I understand they're free in the GWN), I suggest you immediately put the PSBs on the market and sell them for whatever you can get. Do this first, before you even consider or listen to another speaker. This will take care of issues #1 and #2. Issue #3 will take care of itself in time - we all have Issue #3s in our past.


Then, once the evil boxes have gone and their footprints can barely be discerned in the carpet, you will have an incentive to audition speakers - namely, you can't watch movies or listen to music until you get new ones! Take your time and enjoy yourself. You will know when you have found speakers you can live with for the long haul. And keep in mind, if worse comes to worst, you simply put another Issue #3 in the book and pay a few more dollars - you've got plenty so don't sweat it.


Good luck and good hunting.


williak
 

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Just reading the thread here. Wow, I don't know if I should throw my Image 65's out the window or just crawl in the corner somewhere. I thought I was happy with my PSB's and i was just looking for a new pre amp to go with them. You make me feel like I just looked through a window and saw my speakers being beaten down with a sledge hammer. That said , would someone like to recommend a pre amp around 1,500 to 2,000 to go with this demolished speakers?

Gary
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc /forum/post/15586712


I hate using words to describe sound, but, what else can you do? My Marantz SR9600 and PSB Image T65's can sometimes tend to sound a little harsh...


...Anyhow, if you have any suggestions for a smoother sounding amp, please let me know.

Hi cpc,


It's a really, really old fashioned idea that you can tame bright or harsh speakers by using a different amp.


Virtually all new amps and AVR's above at certain price point are going to be quite neutral in their sound presentation overall. So if you are experiencing problems of excessive harshness or brightness with your sound quality and you've ruled out source material as the primary cause, then it's got to be either your speakers or room environment - or possibly a combination thereof.


Consequently, I feel very supportive of williak's post above. But I would express a couple of things a little differently though


In regard to auditioning prospective new speakers, it is said that the human ear actually has fairly poor memory for recalling minor various variations in sound quality that has been heard earlier. And that's why it's not a good idea to try and attempt too many speaker auditions on the same day. If a large number is auditioned, then by the time you've heard the last ones, you will have forgotten what the first ones sounded like.


The above preamble is leading up to this point: Keep your old speakers while you are auditioning for new ones. -It's not a good idea to rush the selection process, and the old speakers can serve as a reference point for what you want to improve on as you go through the auditioning process over however many days it takes. (And naturally, you will want to use your own music tracks when auditioning speakers; and of course be diligent in using the same selection of tracks for each speaker type that you listen to.)


There is also the possibility that the acoustic characteristics of your listening environment are less than optimal which perhaps is exaggerating the problems you are experiencing. In my own experience, I have found the Audyssey system to be extremely useful indeed for issues such as this, and highly recommend an amplifier brand which supports it. -And if you find that you don't need it, then you can simply turn it off!


All of the above is a sincere attempt at helping you avoid making bad decisions for your next purchase of new sound equipment.


Hope it helps a little


Regards
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc /forum/post/15588576


...I don't want to start a whole other discussion.

But you must have known that you would.
With over 6,000 posts and 8 years a member you didn't realize that a post about how much different an amplifier would make on the sound of your system would start up one of the most timeless debates on AVS
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc /forum/post/15591441


I am open to anything and I am willing to try different speakers. Can either of you suggest a tower speaker that is 39" or shorter and has frequency response down to 30 hz - 3 dB?

A couple that come to mind are Rockets and Swans. It depends on your budget.
 

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Here is a list from Alesis ( http://acstudio.sch.bme.hu/device_do...230_manual.pdf ) of how we describe sound "words" into the "real" frequency domain.

I recommend looking at the above pdf (towards the end) as the below charts are formatted nicely.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember: The chart serves only as a starting point. Ulitmately, you must use your ears as a guide.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


FREQUENCY RANGE/ WHEN USED PRODUCES/ WHEN USED TOO MUCH

THIS EFFECT PRODUCES THIS EFFECT


16Hz to 60Hz sense of power, makes music muddy

felt more than heard


60Hz to 250Hz Fundamentals of rhythm makes music boomy

section, EQing can change

musical balance making it

fat or thin


250Hz to 2000Hz Low order harmonics of telephone quality to music

most musical instruments 500 to 1KHz horn-like,

1K to 2KHz tinny,

listening fatigue

2KHz to 4KHz Speech Recognition 3KHz listening fatigue,

lisping quality, "m", "v",

"b" indistiguishable


4KHz to 6KHz Clarity and definition of sibilance on vocals

voices and instruments,

makes music seem closer to

listener, adding 6dB at 5KHz

makes entire mix seem 3dB

louder


6KHz to 16KHz Brilliance and clarity of sounds sibilance, harshness on vocals

-------------------------------------------------------


Bass Guitar Attack or pluck is increased at 700 or 1KHz; Bottom added at 60 or 80Hz;

string noise at 2.5KHz

Bass Drum Slap at 2.5KHz; Bottom at 60 or 80Hz

Snare Fatness at 240Hz; Crispness at 1 to 2.5KHz; Bottom at 60 or 80Hz

Hi-Hat and Cymbals Shimmer at 7.5 to 10KHz; Klang or gong sound at about 200Hz

Toms Attack at 5KHz; Fullness at 240Hz

Floor toms Attack at 5KHz; Fullness at 80 or 120Hz

Electric Guitar Body at 240Hz; Clarity at 2.5KHz

Acoustic Guitar Body at 240Hz; Carity at 2.5KHz; Bottom at 80 or 120Hz

Piano Bass at 80 or 120Hz; Presence at 2.5 to 5KHz; Crispness at 10KHz;

Honky-tonk sound at 2.5KHz as bandwidth is narrowed; Resonance at

40 to 60Hz

Horns Fullness at 120 or 240Hz; Shrill at 7.5 or 5KHz

Voice Fullness at 120Hz; Boominess at 200 to 240Hz; Presence at 5KHz;

Sibilance at 7.5KHz; Air at 12 to 15KHz

Harmonica Fat at 240Hz, bite at 3-5kHz

Conga Resonant ring at 200 to 240Hz; Presence and slap at 5KHz
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The condescending insults are pretty useless to me. I am not insisting that amps make huge differences in sound, so why are you arguing with me like I am a snake oil peddler. I "think" I hear a difference, I "suspect" that they make a difference, and I'm not the only person who thinks that. I want to "try" something else to see, or hear what differences there may be. Trouble-shooting 101. Regardless, I hear what you say about amps not making a difference, and so in my last post I ask about speakers, so why do you then jump right back into the patronizing? If you don't have any speakers to suggest, which is what you insist is very likely the reason for my setup sounding the way it does, then don't bother replying. I have heard differences in receivers, and I'm not the only one. I don't want to start a discussion here, in that, if you disagree, then don't suggest an amp for me or argue that amps can't sound different. I heard you the first time. If you disagree that amps make a difference but can suggest something else, like another speaker for me to try, which I open to, then do that and you're helping, otherwise, go find somebody else to argue with. You disagree amps sound different, I heard you, now move on to suggesting something helpful without lecturing me. I am not going to get rid of my speakers without first comparing with other speakers.
 
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