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Well, as noted by my subject, I do not know much about the Teranex line of video scalers.


I mean you hear one guy say, they have a great deinterlacing algorthim and a great scaling chipset. Then you hear some other guy say yea, they are great with film based DVD's but Faroudja's Directional Corrlational algorthim blows Teranex away with video.



Could someone fill me in on this?



thanks



DB
 

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Teranex is on a whole different scale than the other devices discussed here. Whoever talks about the Teranex as having a "good chipset and algorithm" has, um, undersold the units to put it mildly. The Teranex has over 1000 microprocessors inside. It's just a completely different ballgame, a professional device that can be adapted for HT use. If you've seen it, as I have, you know that nothing else comes close. But, for the high price, that makes some sense.


There are several excellent threads on the unit and its details. I recommend searching, and checking out the teranex website also.


Cheers
 

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The Teranex is really a commercial broadcast product. Some high end HT users with deep pockets have taken a liking to them. They do a great job and the main benefit I see is that they have no "chip set". The hardware is based soley on FPGA farms which is generic logic that can be configured on the fly. The algorithms are down loaded when the box is truned on. This means updates and new algorithms can be supplied to the owner on a CDROM or even over the internet. Kind of like DScaler except that the Teranex is still a hardware based unit and has much more computing power than a PC running a pure software scaler.


Units such as the Faroudja have more "hard wired" hardware and updates are more limited. That is not to say the Teranex is an bottemless pit either. The FPGA's have a finite size and connection routing ability. It is quite posssibel in the unit's future a new algorithm will not fit into the current FPGA chips.


Another disadvantage is that the Teranex uses HDSDI as the output standard. This requires a convertor to get down to analog RGB. That costs's an additional $3K to 10K. But then some high end projectors accept HDSDI too.
 

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Glimmie and Joel pretty much covered it all.

The Teranex video mode was recently up graded and is superior to the dcdi circuit. The Faroudja test disk using the infamous flag is perfect. Quit astounding but as mentioned for the money it is expected.


Another nice feature are the free upgrades via CD rom sent via mail on a bi monthly basis. They keep adding new features and improving existing ones.

6 months from now the unit will be even better. Hard to believe.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Another nice feature are the free upgrades via CD rom sent via mail on a bi monthly basis. They keep adding new features and improving existing ones.

6 months from now the unit will be even better. Hard to believe.
Do they plan on doing this forever, for free? From their website, it sounds like updates are part of their extra "Best Picture Always" program. I could see them sending free upgrades for a little while after you bought a unit, but this is exactly the kind of thing that companies see extra revenue in.


My excuse for not getting a Teranex: My apartment couldn't take the 20 amp current draw. :)


Alan, do you have the 3U or 6U unit? Is there any appreciable difference for HT use?


Alex
 

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Has anybody popped one of these babies open and seen what the make/model of FPGAs they use? I would like to do some density calculations...


I really appreciate the soft hardware approach that they have taken.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by dschmelzer
Has anybody popped one of these babies open and seen what the make/model of FPGAs they use? I would like to do some density calculations...


I really appreciate the soft hardware approach that they have taken.
Can do, give me a few days. I never really looked that close before.
 

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Thanks for helping indulge my inner geek. ;)
 

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Alex


Free software upgrades for one year after purchase. Then you can buy the upgrade program which is very reasonable.


I have a 3ru in a 6ru Chassie with additional software platform.


Glimmie


I had no idea another forum member had a unit. Please tell me what you have and how you are using it. Are you a dealer or end user. Very cool.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Alex


Glimmie


I had no idea another forum member had a unit. Please tell me what you have and how you are using it. Are you a dealer or end user. Very cool.
I don't own it, my employer does. www.laserpacific.com. It's one of the first early production units if not the first.


It is used for a good deal of conversion work. Both in HD-HD, HD-SD modes. We have a few other assorted converters but the Tearnex is our workhorse.
 

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Bumping this up. I'm still interested in knowing the FPGA markings.


Thanks!
 

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Some things that people don't mention about Teranex...


Currently only suitable if you accept 1080psf display... there are currently no true 1080p DAC/frame doublers available (that I can find anyway - PLEASE prove me wrong). This is unacceptable to me as I cannot live with scanlines - and as I already view DVDs at 960p and HDTV at 1080p I will not switch to an interlaced-like format, no matter how good the Teranex video processing is.


The Teranex really only works in 16:9 mode, which I guess is not surprising as it *is* an HDTV processor. However, this means for people with a 4:3 screen that you will never use the whole screen... 4:3 material is framed within a 16:9 window... you *can* zoom up to a 4:3 display, but that introduces all sorts of nastiness into the image...


As far as I understand there is no support for Crestron type interfaces yet, so integrating into a home cinema could be difficult. Teranex seem committed to working to help set these things up but they should really be there NOW.


So, my impression of the Teranex at this stage is that it is only suitable for a small number of people who are prepared to live with the current short-comings or whose setups won't actually consider them short-comings.


There is a lot of hype surrounding the Teranex, and most of it *is* deserved, but the current truth of the matter, IMO, is that this broadcast device is not ready for the average home cinema.


Mark.
 

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Hi Mark


Yes it supports Crestron and others.


Last upgrade included all kinds of Aspect ratio control.

It does everything under the sun including 4x3 and any custom ratio without adding one artifact. Better than any other scaler. This also includes

custom side/bars or top/bottom that you add your choice of color and luminence. You can ever creat your own color. Not everyone will need this but its nice they included this.


Chris will chime in on the 1080P stuff. Hes been doing it for awhile so I know its possible.


Of course any display that can take 1080I can also take 720P which the Teranex also outputs and all Dacs support.


I dont know of any one box that does it all or meets everyones personel need but what the Teranex does do is excell beyond any other scaler at what it does do.

Their live 24 hour tech support is also the best I have ever delt with. No other company offers this.


Some new stuff coming out also that will set new bench marks. Never done before. This company is years ahead of everyone else.
 

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Alan,


I think you'll find that 720P or 1080I are nowhere near enough to get rid of scan lines with Mark's projector......He has first hand experience of the unit. like you.


Gordon
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger

Hi Mark


Yes it supports Crestron and others.
Is this now documented?

Quote:
Last upgrade included all kinds of Aspect ratio control.

It does everything under the sun including 4x3 and any custom ratio without adding one artifact.
This is excellent news. To confirm, it now supports FULL 4:3 and 16:9 screens?

Quote:
Chris will chime in on the 1080P stuff. Hes been doing it for awhile so I know its possible.
I've been in direct contact with Chris and we've yet to resolve this. Chris advocates 1080psf, which is NOT the same as 1080p.


To be clear, the problem is not the Teranex, which does output 1080p24, but that there are no HD-SDI->RGB DACs that can convert 1080p24 to 1080p48, which could then feed a CRT projector.


Whether this is Teranex's problem, or mine, is open to discussion, but as a consumer, I will not purchase a Teranex until I can get a complete package that meets all my requirements.

Quote:
Of course any display that can take 1080I can also take 720P which the Teranex also outputs and all Dacs support.
No good - visible scanlines; it's 1080P or nothing please.

Quote:
I dont know of any one box that does it all or meets everyones personel need but what the Teranex does do is excell beyond any other scaler at what it does do.

Their live 24 hour tech support is also the best I have ever delt with. No other company offers this.


Some new stuff coming out also that will set new bench marks. Never done before. This company is years ahead of everyone else.
That's as maybe, but it's no use to me at present.


Alan, what output are you using? 1080psf?


If anybody knows of any HD-SDI->RGB DACs which also frame double please let me know!!! :)


Mark
 

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Mark:


Not that I could afford a Teranex, but I researched the existence of DACs that could frame double (preferrably triple) the HD-SDI 1080p24 output to RGBHV 1080p48 or RGBHV 1080p72. No such luck--it seems like a simple enough proposition: have a RAM buffer to hold the frame and then output it twice ot three times. I'm probably missing something...no matter, since there's not too big a market for this type of gizmo.
 

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Quote:
As far as I understand there is no support for Crestron type interfaces yet, so integrating into a home cinema could be difficult. Teranex seem committed to working to help set these things up but they should really be there NOW.
If someone wants to loan me one long term, I'll gladly do a CQC driver for it :)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by amillians
Mark:


Not that I could afford a Teranex, but I researched the existence of DACs that could frame double (preferrably triple) the HD-SDI 1080p24 output to RGBHV 1080p48 or RGBHV 1080p72. No such luck--it seems like a simple enough proposition: have a RAM buffer to hold the frame and then output it twice ot three times. I'm probably missing something...no matter, since there's not too big a market for this type of gizmo.
This is exactly the problem - there is (was) no market for such a DAC. My understanding is that the solution is as simple as you describe so hopefully someone somewhere will provide a solution.


As I commented in my earlier post, whether this is Teranex's problem (they want to sell the box) or mine (I want to buy) is open to discussion, but right now I will not buy because I cannot get the display I want.


Teranex are/have added an analog input to their box... maybe they'll add an analog output which will solve this once and for all...


Until then... the search continues...


Mark.
 

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Mark has a serious issue at his install, he sits very close to the image.


This can be a serious issue as the artifacts of compression even when perfectly scaled will be obvious. I have always preferred at least 3ph back. I prefer 4ph on MPEG encoded standard def originated material. HiDef is different. There are well documented reasons for this I will not jump into here. While the Teranex can do amazing things it does not remove MPEG compression blocking and mosquito noise that was added to the source. These issues alone make me want a further distance back.


Line structure is another issue. I am of the mind set that a lower scan rate is better for picture quality on a CRT. Indeed I have seen many people discover this when the HTPC forum here suddenly discovered dropping the frame rate improved picture quality on a whole range of CRT projectors.


I do not want to use 1080P48 or 72. I like 1080psf48 because of its low scan rate and better picture from a CRT. 1080P48 while it -may- improve scan line visibility from a position that's very close to the screen it will degrade other aspects of the picture quality from a CRT.


All the professional DAC's don't support P48 simple because no one sees a need for it. Now that 24P is more of a standard, yes I feel it will come. Will it be a better picture is another point of debate.


I could have one made. It would cost me a lot to do. Im not sure I see a need.


Mark prefers a very close viewing position and really dislikes seeing line structure. This is a issue. I don't feel there is a good answer to this even with unlimited power from the Teranex. As I increase the number of lines and frame rate I increase the scan rate and degrade the picture as the electronics have less time to settle per pixel.


The Barco may also have a issue with line pairing. This is where 2 interlaced fields land on top of each other making line structure quite visible and very annoying. This can also happen on progressive. This was a very serious and difficult issue on the projector I make and I have spent a lot of time removing this issue. I even created a test pattern to help isolate the problem. Most CRT projectors today have issues with line pairing and landing each fields lines in exactly the same place each time. I have almost elminated this issue on my CRT.


__________________


Digital Buzz...


The 3 board Teranex has 76,800 cpu's. This is unlike any normal scaler. It loads all those CPU's with software for each specific conversion. So for example if you do non anamorphic, that a different set of stuff from a anamorphic. Each format conversion loads different software. So the whole CPU structure does just that one thing, for example 480I to 720P is different then 480I to 1080psf24. The entire machine loads stuff for just one thing say 480I -> 1080psf24 anamorphic.


So all the hardware is dedicated to doing just exactly what you want and no extra space is wasted.


Most other platforms chips have to do many things and are hard coded for these even if you don't use them.


___________________


Glimmie....


Rest assured they have plenty of room for additional math :)


This will become obvious shortly as Teranex has decided to address the Home Theater market specifically.


I cannot discuss this further..


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dschmelzer....


This chip is a recently declassified technology developed using hundreds of millions of dollars by Lockheed Martin. Its not your normal chip or technology. The basics are still in use in highly classified stuff now using a chip that's 2 generations newer then this chip.


Its not a FPGA, ASIC or a DSP engine. Its patented and its called a GAPP (Geometric Arithmetic Parallel Processor). its a LSI and its number won't help you. There are 1024 numerical 1 bit processors on each chip, 25 chips per board, 18 layer board. They come in 1 board, 3 board and 6 board versions. The machine can do trillions of operations per second. As I/O is also a issue a board of 25 chips can sustain over 3GigaBYTES per second of I/O. 10 times the needed rate for any uncompressed HD.


Some of the unclassified technical details are at:

Teranex's web site


Overall its a unique massively parallel video processor. Its like a Cray for your video.


Indeed we have only begun to explore what it can do :) I think the future holds many new things from Teranex.


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Crestron control. This is odd as the RS232 control codes have been available for, hmmm, lets see, at least a year and a half. I have had working Crestron for over a year. Its fully functional 2 way RS232. Indeed you can also do TCP/IP if you want from Crestron if you want. It also has contact closure that can choose presets.


Its very controllable.

__________________


What makes its picture so good ??. As Teranex has decided to simply not tell a sole and not patent as they feel the secret is quite secure in the military chips, Im not sure we will know any time soon.


Rest assured its amazing.


I saw someone say it was not as good as DCDI. Interesting as i have seen the DCDI test disk played through the Teranex and it was perfect I think I will dispute this. This could have come from older software mabey on the Teranex ???.


The adaptability, future proof nature, and amazing picture quality do place it in a class of its own. Its also VERY VERY easy to use.
 
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