[RXPorlando]

I'm looking at the LAB GRUPPEN FP6000Q. Be sides being twice the price as a compadible wattage amp like crest,Qsc,face audio etc.


What makes this amp superior to the others to justify the price diffrents? I notice it uses a TC power supply compaired to the typical H desing like face,crest etc. What makes this amp so great to justify the price diffrence?


Is the sound quality that superior over the rest?


I looking for a quality amps for the famous and great sounding JTR triple 12s LF for the front stage of my new system.


Any feed bake would really help me deside if I should bust a nut and go for the GRUPPEN.


Thanks for all your input.......Scott

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RXPorlando /forum/post/16849480


I'm looking at the LAB GRUPPEN FP6000Q. Be sides being twice the price as a compadible wattage amp like crest,Qsc,face audio etc.


What makes this amp superior to the others to justify the price diffrents? I notice it uses a TC power supply compaired to the typical H desing like face,crest etc. What makes this amp so great to justify the price diffrence?


Is the sound quality that superior over the rest?


I looking for a quality amps for the famous and great sounding JTR triple 12s LF for the front stage of my new system.


Any feed bake would really help me deside if I should bust a nut and go for the GRUPPEN.


Thanks for all your input.......Scott

I doubt you would pick a winner between it and any of the high end Crown or QSC amps in a DBT. Not saying Gruppen isnt incredible just saying for your application it may not make a difference!


IMO, I think its not a wise audio design decision to spend more on amps then someone does on speakers. Speakers should have a value that is 3/4 or more of any audio budget. Saying that, the JTR 12s have INCREDIBLE value and a worth 2 or 3 times their price tag, nice choice there

I believe Mark Seaton has some experience with it though and he is a NO BS guy when it comes to this stuff. You might want to PM him and ask for his opinion on it.


btw, I do have a FACE F1200TS sitting unused in a box

 

[RXPorlando]

This is were I believe the extra price comes from?


Lab Gruppens patented (TD) out put stage,an amplifier topology that approaches the exceptional effiiciecy of class D while retaining the sonic purity of the proven A/B designs.


Not just my oppionion but I've witness the diffrence an amp can make to the same speakers with nothing being change put pluging in a diffrent amp and it just happend to be the JTR triple 12. Close to being the same output with both amps and the QSC sounded much brighter and not to my likeing compaired to my 1090 rotel that sounded much smoother and fuller in sound.


Scott

 

[MichaelJHuman]

There's been more efficient class AB designs before. Lookup class G or class H. I forget how much they improve efficiency.


TD seems to be it's own beast though, I guess. They don't explain enough about it for me to know exactly what it is. They say it stands for 'tracking class D', which sounds like a tracking power supply (variable rail voltage.) They then mention class D, but then say the audio signal stays in analog, and that it does not use PWM.


Too much market-speak, and not enough technical details.


The OPs question, is a leading question, in that it's trying to answer an unproven assertion, that Lab Gruppen makes the best pro amps. And 'best' is not well defined.

 

[RXPorlando]

I've been told that crest amps are not as bright sounding as QSC amps.


Being there both class H amps what spec would you look for that would indicate how bright sounding one amp would be over the other? What cause one amp to sound bright compaired to enother? Is there any indicators to look for?

 

[MichaelJHuman]

Some people think brightness is in people's heads

I think of brightness as occuring when an amp is overdriven, or in other words, I think of brightness as distortion.


I am not sure people define brightness the exact same way. One definition is that the high end is too prounounced.


I question blanket statements about a manufacturer's products being brighter than another. Even if one amp was bright, why would all amps from that same manufacturer be bright? They may not all use the same design.


And amps generally measure very flat, when it comes to frequency reponse, at least ones I have seen tests for. So where is this supposed bump in high end response coming from?

 

[rider]



Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/16849511


Speakers should have a value that is 3/4 or more of any audio budget.

Uh....what?

I always thought you should choose speakers based on how they sound...


That definitely makes speaker selection a lot easier: speakers price = 3 x (rest of audio gear cost)

Ouch....that means my speakers should cost at least $165K....guess I better ebay mine and get new ones.....

 

[mbyrnes]



Quote:
Originally Posted by rider /forum/post/16849815


Uh....what?

I always thought you should choose speakers based on how they sound...


That definitely makes speaker selection a lot easier: speakers price = 3 x (rest of audio gear cost)

Ouch....that means my speakers should cost at least $165K....guess I better ebay mine and get new ones.....

Well if you are buying gear in that price range I wouldn't worry. The advice Penngray gave is very true in the low end range or for beginners. I have seen people spend $1,000 on an AVR and use it to drive a $300 5.1 system. That doesn't make much sense. That person probably should of flipped the budget ($300 AVR with a $1,000 5.1 setup). Speakers make the largest improvement in sound.


Now if you have $5,000 speakers or more you are at the point of diminishing returns. Going to $7,000 speakers might get you slightly better sound. Is it worth $2,000? Depends on the person.


The formula is great for people new to the hobby. Once people understand a little more, they can do whatever they want as far as I am concerned.

 

[RXPorlando]

Thanks to all for takeing the time to add valuable information to this post.


Scott....

 

[rider]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes /forum/post/16850466


Well if you are buying gear in that price range I wouldn't worry. The advice Penngray gave is very true in the low end range or for beginners. I have seen people spend $1,000 on an AVR and use it to drive a $300 5.1 system. That doesn't make much sense. That person probably should of flipped the budget ($300 AVR with a $1,000 5.1 setup). Speakers make the largest improvement in sound.


Now if you have $5,000 speakers or more you are at the point of diminishing returns. Going to $7,000 speakers might get you slightly better sound. Is it worth $2,000? Depends on the person.


The formula is great for people new to the hobby. Once people understand a little more, they can do whatever they want as far as I am concerned.

That makes more sense for beginners starting with a modest budget.


For the speakers I've auditioned, the diminishing returns point seemed to start around $35-$40K/pr. Plenty of people would sneeze at that; theirs would probably start around $100K. For others with less experience and/or lesser budgets it might be $2K....


The nicest speakers I heard were MBLs @ $60K/pr, but that was waaaayyyy past my budget.....my current 7.1 speakers cost is $17.5K - which means my speakers are 1/4 of my total audio gear cost, but I'm extremely happy with them.


I agree with your $1K/$300 example, but I still think "cost" rules or ratios aren't the best approach: people should take the time and effort to listen to different systems/components and then make their choice based on that, regardless of what their budget is.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RXPorlando /forum/post/16849784


I've been told that crest amps are not as bright sounding as QSC amps.


Being there both class H amps what spec would you look for that would indicate how bright sounding one amp would be over the other? What cause one amp to sound bright compaired to enother? Is there any indicators to look for?

If the post or review had zero measurements, I wouldnt take their conclusions to mean too much. They could have been standing a couple feet off between the two listening tests, we really do not know unless the test and measurements are completely defined.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Originally Posted by rider /forum/post/16851503


That makes more sense for beginners starting with a modest budget.


For the speakers I've auditioned, the diminishing returns point seemed to start around $35-$40K/pr. Plenty of people would sneeze at that; theirs would probably start around $100K. For others with less experience and/or lesser budgets it might be $2K....


The nicest speakers I heard were MBLs @ $60K/pr, but that was waaaayyyy past my budget.....my current 7.1 speakers cost is $17.5K - which means my speakers are 1/4 of my total audio gear cost, but I'm extremely happy with them.


I agree with your $1K/$300 example, but I still think "cost" rules or ratios aren't the best approach: people should take the time and effort to listen to different systems/components and then make their choice based on that, regardless of what their budget is.

Sorry to confuse above....there is obviously a diminished returns effect even with speakers but you can pick any budget from 10K on down and I believe that spending 3/4 of that budget on the speakers will give you superior results then spending less on the speakers. You can buy $5000 in electronics, you can buy $1000 in electronics or even $500 and they do not alter the sound as much as some people exaggerate around here. Both cost about the same to build, both have very similar costing parts inside...the main difference is that the company selling $5000 products needs to 'convince' you its worth it and they need to have a much higher margin on their product since they sell 1000 instead of the 100,000 $500 products sold.


SPeakers simply are the tools that make the sounds in your room...nothing else comes remotely close to their importance so why not focus on choosing the best in your budget range.




As for the uber "look at what I own" crowd.....there is an ultra high end forum for them to talk amongst their brethren.....no one will ever convince me that $50K ....$100K is meaningfully different in the world of audio. At that point its more show. Everyone has their hobby, my buddy that lives a 1/2 block from me just spend $700K on a full court gym,guest house, custom poker room. Gotta love money

btw, this is a general statement, Im not saying this about LAB GRUPPEN because I have limited research on them.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Originally Posted by rider /forum/post/16849815


Uh....what?

I always thought you should choose speakers based on how they sound...


That definitely makes speaker selection a lot easier: speakers price = 3 x (rest of audio gear cost)

Ouch....that means my speakers should cost at least $165K....guess I better ebay mine and get new ones.....

I would post that you severely over spent on electronics but its your money

I have to ask how much of that money was spent on room treatments, overall room design?