What receiver to buy next?

I would not get a receiver with built-in streaming. Receivers and integrated amps never go out of date, but any streaming built into receivers and amps will become outdated within a few years. Even if the receiver/amp's could be updated to keep them current, most manufacturers stop producing firmware updates for older models not long after newer models come out. Standalone streaming devices are likely to have updates for much longer update periods (usually forever) and can later be replaced inexpensively later if they ever do go out of date.

Newer is not always better, sometimes it's worse. I would just add streaming to the front-end of your Optimus. If you have the "upgrade itch", given that streaming can be external to the receiver, I would add a vintage receiver to the realm of possibilities. Some inexpensive vintage receivers like the Harman Kardon 330a and 330b with capacitor-coupled outputs are very highly regarded for sound quality. I haven't seen anybody test a 330a against a modern receiver, so I can't say how they compare. Even better is the HK 430, with "dual mono" internal amps and power supplies. The more powerful and more expensive HK 730 (also dual mono), by some accounts, does not sound as quite as good as the 330 and 430, so "more" is not always more.

I've always thought that (most) A/V receivers were a bit compromised in the 2-channel department. And some older ones are especially "odd" when it comes to setting the sound how you want and avoiding any DSP coming into play. I'm in the camp that looking at something new and dedicated to 2-channel might not be a bad thing.

In reality, a $499 receiver, streaming or not, is not a hugely expensive purchase. I personally would choose to purchase an integrated without streaming on it, but that's me. I get the convenience of having everything in one unit, but who knows if the app to run said receiver will still be going 3-5 years from now.

If you are down to the Denon or the Onkyo, I'd go Denon personally. But I'd also take a hard look at amps that don't have streaming built in.

And if you value sound quality, stay away from bluetooth.


If it were my $500-$1K, I'd take a look at something like the Marantz integrated amps that are made in Japan (PM7005, PM8006). There are a lot decent choices in that range.

You don't mention your speakers, but speakers are far and away the most impactful on the sound. In your quest for improving your setup, this is what you should be focusing on and putting most of your money into. Then compliment with a competent 2 channel integrated amp.

Excellent deals on amps here:
https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...e-audio/receivers-amps/integrated-amps/1.html

Yamaha and Marantz make excellent choices.

There are economies of scale in your favor for home theater amps used as 2 channel. Denon in particular is known for making excellent receivers. Something like the Denon AVR-X series are well regarded (ie. AVR-X1400H here for under $300) would likely be a noticeable step up from what you have for a reasonable cost.
https://www.accessories4less.com/ma.../receivers-amps/home-theater-receivers/1.html

However, speakers are what is going to make the difference you are looking for. If you want to go down that route, ask again and luckily there are many good choices starting under $500.

pjp said:

I would not get a receiver with built-in streaming. Receivers and integrated amps never go out of date, but any streaming built into receivers and amps will become outdated within a few years. Even if the receiver/amp's could be updated to keep them current, most manufacturers stop producing firmware updates for older models not long after newer models come out. Standalone streaming devices are likely to have updates for much longer update periods (usually forever) and can later be replaced inexpensively later if they ever do go out of date.

Newer is not always better, sometimes it's worse. I would just add streaming to the front-end of your Optimus. If you have the "upgrade itch", given that streaming can be external to the receiver, I would add a vintage receiver to the realm of possibilities. Some inexpensive vintage receivers like the Harman Kardon 330a and 330b with capacitor-coupled outputs are very highly regarded for sound quality. I haven't seen anybody test a 330a against a modern receiver, so I can't say how they compare. Even better is the HK 430, with "dual mono" internal amps and power supplies. The more powerful and more expensive HK 730 (also dual mono), by some accounts, does not sound as quite as good as the 330 and 430, so "more" is not always more.

Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree.

Something like the NAD C368 integrated amp with the MDC BluOS 2i module for streaming would not go obsolete because it's continually receiving free firmware and app updates. Should the day come that a streaming technology becomes so advanced that the hardware of that module wouldn't work, NAD would make available a newer, updated module. They did this most recently with the module I mentioned because it didn't have the chip required by Apple for Airplay 2 to work..

That integrated amp can be had (in the US) from Safe & Sound for $649 as a factory refurbished, for $895 with the previous (non-Airplay 2) module, or buy without a module add the latest module for $449.

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/coll...rid-digital-dac-amplifier-factory-refurbished

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/coll...-dac-amplifier-with-bluos-factory-refurbished

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/prod...2i-upgrade-module?_pos=1&_sid=ba0a82d12&_ss=r

Nothing wrong with going with a more modern unit, they sound fantastic IMO.

BTW, with the BluOS module it streams via wireless or Ethernet directly, and though it has Bluetooth that wouldn't be needed. Control is via any computer, phone or tablet and it streams myriad services (including Amazon Music HD) without need for any other DAC or device of any kind. Add a MDC PP375 and have full phono capability for both moving magnet and moving coil cartridges.

KenM10759 said:

I respectfully disagree.

Something like the NAD C368 integrated amp with the MDC BluOS 2i module for streaming would not go obsolete because it's continually receiving free firmware and app updates. Should the day come that a streaming technology becomes so advanced that the hardware of that module wouldn't work, NAD would make available a newer, updated module. They did this most recently with the module I mentioned because it didn't have the chip required by Apple for Airplay 2 to work..

That integrated amp can be had (in the US) from Safe & Sound for $649 as a factory refurbished, for $895 with the previous (non-Airplay 2) module, or buy without a module add the latest module for $449.

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/coll...rid-digital-dac-amplifier-factory-refurbished

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/coll...-dac-amplifier-with-bluos-factory-refurbished

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/prod...2i-upgrade-module?_pos=1&_sid=ba0a82d12&_ss=r

Nothing wrong with going with a more modern unit, they sound fantastic IMO.

Click to expand...

I mostly agree with you in this very specific case because Bluesound is providing the streaming within the NAD amp. Because Bluesound is a streaming platform, I agree it is much more likely to be updatable for much longer periods of time just like their standalone streaming devices. For most manufacturers and models, the built-in streaming is their own proprietary implementation and they go out of date quickly. There is no reason for them to go out of date hardware-wise, but firmware updates from most manufacturers stop very quickly for older models as soon as newer models come out. To me, absent a scenario like NAD/Bluesound, built-in streaming is a dead end if you like to keep equipment long term.

Regarding internal upgradable hardware futureproofing promised by manufacturers for amps/receivers, I've seen very few of those work out in practical terms. Usually, they can be upgraded later as promised, but the cost of those upgraded boards usually turn out to be very expensive in many manufacturers -- often it costs the same or close to the same to upgrade internal boards as it is to buy a new unit. It sounds like NAD may be an exception, but that has been my general experience.

If the OP really wants, or only has space for, a single unit with everything built-in, then you have to go with built-in and the NAD seems like an almost uniquely solid recommendation (great value also).

For vintage versus modern, I won't push hard either way, my only point is that if streaming is external, it opens up a whole realm of possibilities of what to use for a receiver. I have a vintage receiver that I am literally thrilled with the sound of, but my observations are not scientific since I haven't tested side-by-side with a modern receiver. I'm curious enough that I would love to do that test myself, but it's logistically difficult to pull off and I don't have a new receiver on hand or the spare time to do it. I would love to see somebody do a test between a highly regarded vintage receiver and a modern stereo receiver -- haven't seen anyone do that comparison.

Andrew Jensen said:

I have been thinking about buying a new receiver for two reasons:


1) I'm currently using an Optimus STAV-3690 from 1998 and my assumption is that if I buy a high end brand, newer receiver, I'll get better sound.

2) I assume something that can stream music directly without Bluetooth reliance will sound better. I play a lot of vinyl, but I also will stream Amazon Music via my phone through a $25 Bluetooth receiver connected to my receiver with A/V jacks.

I've been eyeing receivers like a Denon DRA-800h or Onkyo TX-8270. Both meet my 2 criteria above, but I wonder if I would be better off buying a separate streaming music player and/or buying a more expensive receiver? And will either really produce a noticeable sound difference just because they are 20 years newer and a "better brand?"

I'm a big "the proof is in the pudding" guy and don't really understand what it is about a more expensive receiver that would produce better sound and hate that I can't easily try different receivers in my with my current setup to see if I can tell meaningful differences. I'd be happy to pay an additional 500 or 1000 bucks if it could lead to a "wow! I can really hear the improvement!" moment, but feel like a lot of audio talk online is driven by hype and the satisfaction of knowing you own a really expensive setup - regardless of an objective quality increase.

Any thoughts or advice?

Click to expand...

Interesting thread. I am not seeing HEOS mentioned here -although you are looking at the DRA 800H.

Question: if you are so concerned about fidelity, why are you insisting on using blue tooth? I am of the opinion that (audio) friends don't let friends use BT! At least in a "permanent" set up ( BT has its place, but in not a home audio set up where fidelity is important).

There are plenty of streamers that can be had inexpensively.

You can get a HEOS link ( preamp) used via ebay for typically less than 200 ( 349 new. same as Sonos connect) . Or a play -fi streamer can be had via amazon for ~30 ( Phorus pr5, Klipsch gate).

Both HEOS and Play-fi can stream from your NAS. HEOS supports higher bit rates than Sonos.

But to answer the broader question of "should you consider a unit with built in streaming"? I say, yes. However, this is based mostly on the convenience-of-control factor, as well as an outward sense of simplicity(everything is in the case).

As for sound quality, well, that's another thing...can you perceive an audio/audible difference between a modern unit and a vintage unit? Only your ears can tell.

hope it helps

It is hard to predict what will give you specifically the WOW factors, but I can suggest a few Network Receivers in your price range that are worth looking at.

Outlaw Audio is very well regarded and certainly worth a look. It does have Streaming but I'm not sure of the degree to which it is implemented, I will leave that aspect to others with more direct experience -

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2160.html

Then there are two Yamaha Network Receiver at least worth checking out -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RN602/Yamaha-R-N602.html

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/r-n602/index.html

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RN803/Yamaha-R-N803.html

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/r-n803/index.html

The Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver is in essence a 2.1 Channel AV Receiver minus the HDMI inputs. It has Full Bass Management and Room-EQ capability with a solid 100w/ch to 8 ohm.

The Optimus STAV-3690 does not appear to have been anything unusual, pretty much just a standard consumer grade AVR.

http://www.manualsdir.com/manuals/206178/optimus-stav-3690-31-3040.html?page=30

From what I read, this is a re-badged Pioneer Receiver.

If you really want to climb to the top of the mountain, then consider this considerably more expensive Amp -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_410SR250B/Arcam-SR250.html

Also, can you tell us what speakers you are using or will be using with the new Amp/Receiver?

Steve/bluewizard

As someone else mentioned, you could combine the Yamaha Integrated Amps (AS501, AS701, and AS801) with a separate Network Streaming device -

Yamaha AS501 Integrated w/DAC, 85w/ch - $550 -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS501S/Yamaha-A-S501-Silver.html

Yamaha AS701 Integrated w/DAC, 100w/ch - $800 -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS701S/Yamaha-A-S701-Silver.html

Yamaha AS801 Integrated w/Better DAC w/USB-PC, 100w/ch - $900 -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022AS801S/Yamaha-A-S801-Silver.html

Here are all Yamaha Amps and Receivers with full specs -

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/index.html

Here is Yamaha's Network Streamer - WXC-50 - $350 -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022WXC50DS/Yamaha-WXC-50.html

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/wireless_streaming_amplifiers/wxc-50/index.html

Here is the Bluesound Note-2i Network Streamer - $550 -

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_813NODE2IB/Bluesound-Node-2i-Black.html

Steve/bluewizard