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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've got a Denon DVD3930 and a Denon AVR3805, which right now is connected via 6-ch analog.


I had a brief email conversation with an audio authority that said to "always" connect via DLink, though didn't explain why, and I've not been able to follow up with him.


As I understand, using analog requires my DVD player to do the D-A conversation, and the avr only bumps the LFE by 15db, and we're good to go. My 3930 has excellent bass mgmt (digital delay, channel trim, and crossover frequency I want).


If I go DLink, as I understand, I am using the bass mgmt in my avr (which is just about identical to my player), and now requiring my AVR to convert from D-A. I guess the AVR automatically bumps the LFE 15db in this case. The problem is the DACs in my AVR are inferior to the DACs in my player. If bass mgmt is equal in the 2 components, (and I don't care about 6 analog cables), the only other factor is the DACs, and I want to use the best I have at my disposal, thus am using 6-ch analog for DVDA/SACD. Am I missing something?


If I do use DLink, what does my excellent 3930 have to offer over an entry-level DLink-enabled DVD player? The only reason I would consider using DLink (assuming my reasoning above is right) is to free-up my AVR's 6-ch ext in for a Blu-ray player that decodes both lossless formats and outputs 6-ch analoge PCM.


Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor /forum/post/15576737


You said the DAC's in the player would be better so I asked if you knew which DAC's they are using.

I don't remember off the top of my head, but do remember that I did a fair amount of digging/research when I first bought my 3930 and found it's DACs were superior to those in my AVR.


But really, I'm getting off my main questions at this point. Let's assume my DVD's DACs are the better.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie 1.8 /forum/post/15575619



...If bass mgmt is equal in the 2 components, (and I don't care about 6 analog cables), the only other factor is the DACs, and I want to use the best I have at my disposal, thus am using 6-ch analog for DVDA/SACD. Am I missing something?

I would say no, but why don't you get some material and A/B the Denonlink and analog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler /forum/post/15578527


I would say no, but why don't you get some material and A/B the Denonlink and analog.

Well, I have done that, and would fail a blind test. But that's not what I'm after. My objective is to understand the fundamentals here. If everything I've thought is true, then, if I do go DLink, what value is my excellent DVD3930 providing vs say, the cheapest DLink-enabled Denon DVD player? What is it adding to the audio chain? I guess I'm asking what elements of a DVD player, while still in the digital domain, contribute to the audio quality before that signal is passed via DLink to the AVR?


I'm quite surprised there is not more response to this question.


Yesterday I called Denon support 3 times to get this question answered (unfortunately I got the same tech twice), and neither tech could answer the question, and did not even mention DACs and bass mgmt when considering DLink.


Are all users of DLink just assuming that the sound is better vs analog without undersanding why? Or do they not care because they are using 1 digital cable vis many analog cables? I don't know.
 

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If you use DenonLINK, then the player is simply a transport. It should have no bearing on the sound if it is working right. I suppose some might ask if the levels of jitter are higher when using DL then decoding in the player, but whatever the difference, I would really doubt that there would be audible consequences.


But going DL, you are then at the mercy of how well your receiver handles bass management, distance compensation, and, if it is equipped, with Audyssey EQ. I do not know your gear, but I run a 3910 into a 3808, and I am using DenonLINK.


If the 3805 lacks Audyssey, but otherwise has comparable processing for bass management and time alignment, then it would pretty much be a straight fight between the quality of the DACs, and you really are at the mercy of what your ears tell you when you compare.


In my case, the analogs produce a small bit of humm when the volume is really cranked. It is always masked by the music, but I know its there (!) so DenonLINK wins that round. And my AVR has Audyssey, which also works well in my room, so its pretty much game over in favor of DenonLINK.


That said, I am trying to sort out what may be a Bass Management issue with DL when I am playing SACD's. Since there is no actual SACD test media as there is with DVD's and DVD-A, it is impossible to know if it is working right or not, but it seems to me that the bass weight with SACD's is not what it should be. I hear no such issues when playing DVD's or DVD-A's.


To compound the uncertainty, the 3808 is able to take pure DSD via DL, and convert it to PCM such that it can then apply BM, TA, and Audyssey. Or I can play it in Direct Mode w/o processing.


I would not be too surprised at the lack of comment. You would need to have the right DVD player and the right AVR to be able to use DL. That would tend to reduce the number of readers that have experience with DL.


Brian
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc /forum/post/15580307


If you use DenonLINK, then the player is simply a transport. It should have no bearing on the sound if it is working right. I suppose some might ask if the levels of jitter are higher when using DL then decoding in the player, but whatever the difference, I would really doubt that there would be audible consequences.

So then if I have 2 Denon DVD players, one the lowest-cost model w/ DL, and the other the highest-cost model with DL, you believe on paper the sound quality would be identical between the two if both are using DL?


At this time since I have my DVD3930 connected via 6-ch analog, I am utilizing the better DACs of my player, and my AVR is adding a 15db bump to the LFE for anything played via EXT IN, which applies to DVDA and SACD. If I go DL, I basically throw away the superior DACs of the 3930, and really utilize it only for watching DVDs, which is not too often (always watch in Blu-ray if available).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc /forum/post/15580307


But going DL, you are then at the mercy of how well your receiver handles bass management, distance compensation, and, if it is equipped, with Audyssey EQ. I do not know your gear, but I run a 3910 into a 3808, and I am using DenonLINK.

So if using 6-ch outs from the player, the avr's Audyssey is bypassed? That sounds right, as I think Audyssey would need to be applied in the digital domain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc /forum/post/15580307


If the 3805 lacks Audyssey, but otherwise has comparable processing for bass management and time alignment, then it would pretty much be a straight fight between the quality of the DACs, and you really are at the mercy of what your ears tell you when you compare.

That all sounds right. My 3805 does have Audyssey, but I'm currently not using it. I've read mixed comments on the 3805's Audyssey, but would be curious to try it sometime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc /forum/post/15580307


In my case, the analogs produce a small bit of humm when the volume is really cranked. It is always masked by the music, but I know its there (!) so DenonLINK wins that round. And my AVR has Audyssey, which also works well in my room, so its pretty much game over in favor of DenonLINK.

Yeah, I'm sure the Audyssey in your 3808 is great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc /forum/post/15580307


That said, I am trying to sort out what may be a Bass Management issue with DL when I am playing SACD's. Since there is no actual SACD test media as there is with DVD's and DVD-A, it is impossible to know if it is working right or not, but it seems to me that the bass weight with SACD's is not what it should be. I hear no such issues when playing DVD's or DVD-A's.

Well, is your 3808 supposed to bump LFE by 15db (or 10db) when playing SACD or DVDA? If you are using your 3910's analog outs, then you can tell your avr to bump by 15db the source material used for the EXT INs. How do you apply a similar setting when using DL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc /forum/post/15580307


To compound the uncertainty, the 3808 is able to take pure DSD via DL, and convert it to PCM such that it can then apply BM, TA, and Audyssey. Or I can play it in Direct Mode w/o processing.

This sounds right, but bass mgt does not allow for the 15db drop in DVDA/SACD, so I'm still not sure where this requirement should be applied. By TA you mean digital delay, right? Distance from sweet spot to speakers?
 

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Quote:
I don't remember off the top of my head, but do remember that I did a fair amount of digging/research when I first bought my 3930 and found it's DACs were superior to those in my AVR.


But really, I'm getting off my main questions at this point. Let's assume my DVD's DACs are the better.

PCM-1796 for your source and PCM-1791 for your receiver, so yes the DAC's are better in your player.

Quote:
Well, I have done that, and would fail a blind test. But that's not what I'm after. My objective is to understand the fundamentals here. If everything I've thought is true, then, if I do go DLink, what value is my excellent DVD3930 providing vs say, the cheapest DLink-enabled Denon DVD player? What is it adding to the audio chain? I guess I'm asking what elements of a DVD player, while still in the digital domain, contribute to the audio quality before that signal is passed via DLink to the AVR?

Nothing, that is why you put more importance on the receiver/processor that can do everything and run a basic source like a PS3 or the upcoming oppo blu ray player and save yourself a pile of money.
 

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Quote:
and my AVR is adding a 15db bump to the LFE for anything played via EXT IN,
Quote:
So if using 6-ch outs from the player, the avr's Audyssey is bypassed? That sounds right, as I think Audyssey would need to be applied in the digital domain.

Careful, if you have to apply and post processing in the receiver it would then have to go through a ADC, apply processing, then go through the receivers DAC's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor /forum/post/15581358


PCM-1796 for your source and PCM-1791 for your receiver, so yes the DAC's are better in your player.

Yes, those numbers sounds familiar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor /forum/post/15581358


Nothing, that is why you put more importance on the receiver/processor that can do everything and run a basic source like a PS3 or the upcoming oppo blu ray player and save yourself a pile of money.

Well, the subject here is, what factors to consider before using DLink vs analog, and neither of those 2 sources, obviously, support DLink. I do have a PS3, but it doesn't support SACD/DVDA without running audio via HDMI (my 3805 doesn't support HDMI, so I'm running HDMI for video only). And there again, the 3930 has better DACs than my 3805 even if it did support HDMI.


In addition, I use my 3930 for all DVDs, as it is far superior to my PS3 for DVDs. When I asked what my 3930 provides if used w/ DLink, I meant in terms of audio - not video.


So the items to consider before deciding to use DLink vs analog (assuming one has a Denon player and Denon AVR), is the bass mgt of the components, auto room EQ like Audyssey in the AVR (and whether or not you use it), and the quality of the DACs in the components.


I have a neighbor that finds his 5803 too complicated, and is considering swapping with my much more simple 3805. If he does, I'll go DLink, as I'm sure bass mgmt in the 5803 is no less capable than my 3930, and the 5803 DACs are far far superior than my 3930's.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie 1.8 /forum/post/15581525



I have a neighbor that finds his 5803 too complicated, and is considering swapping with my much more simple 3805. If he does, I'll go DLink, as I'm sure bass mgmt in the 5803 is no less capable than my 3930, and the 5803 DACs are far far superior than my 3930's.

I expressed earlier why I would chose DenonLink over analog for DVD-A/SACD (converting that material to 7.1). If I were you I would jump on the AVR 5803 if he is willing to trade because it is a considerably better AVR (I also own an AVR 4806) than the AVR 3805. I don't understand how it is more complicated though...
 

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Quote:
So the items to consider before deciding to use DLink vs analog (assuming one has a Denon player and Denon AVR), is the bass mgt of the components, auto room EQ like Audyssey in the AVR (and whether or not you use it), and the quality of the DACs in the components.

If you are applying any post processing with the receiver you should then use D link.
 

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This is going to get messy keeping our comments straight, so I will place mine in BOLD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie 1.8 /forum/post/15581324


So then if I have 2 Denon DVD players, one the lowest-cost model w/ DL, and the other the highest-cost model with DL, you believe on paper the sound quality would be identical between the two if both are using DL?

BGL - Yes I do.


So if using 6-ch outs from the player, the avr's Audyssey is bypassed? That sounds right, as I think Audyssey would need to be applied in the digital domain.

BGL - Yes it is.


Well, is your 3808 supposed to bump LFE by 15db (or 10db) when playing SACD or DVDA? If you are using your 3910's analog outs, then you can tell your avr to bump by 15db the source material used for the EXT INs. How do you apply a similar setting when using DL?

BGL - Well, therein lies the rub. You don't, or what I should say is, you can't. There is no such setting that I have found either at the player or the 3808. Now, my real heartburn here is that there is no SACD test software that I know of where BM performance can be verified with SACD. I do have a DVD-A test disc (Chesky Ultimate DVD-A) disc, and the levels with that come out right on the money (still using DL). Same using Avia for Dolby Digital.


Whatever boost is or is not being applied in the AVR seems to be getting the job done. But when a given SACD seems weak in the bass, it is impossible to know why because I do not know how the content was mixed, nor do I have any SACD test tones to confirm that BM is working right.



This sounds right, but bass mgt does not allow for the 15db drop in DVDA/SACD, so I'm still not sure where this requirement should be applied. By TA you mean digital delay, right? Distance from sweet spot to speakers?

BGL - Yes, Time Delay. And I concur....the BM question regarding DVD-A and SACD is an open one. I can play a DVD-A known to have almost excessive levels of bass (Hotel California) and using DL, it STILL have excessive levels of bass. ;-) But an SACD, such as The Who's "Tommy" sounds very weak, even with the sub level at maximum (+12). At that level, I should have boom-car level of bass on anything other than chamber music. So, that is my quandary at the moment.
 

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i also use d-link...


i have 3930ci connected via d-link to a 3806. you are correct in that the 3930ci is reduced to a transport only in this scenario (except for it's video capabilties) but, as stated, the beauty of this connection is it allows all BM and post processing to be done in the rec., and jitter (i know, i know) is reduced to nil.


when i play a dvd-audio or sacd, the display on the 3806 reads, "d-link...ext. in"...


i understand with d-link we are now in the digital domain...but i believe the 0-+15 bass adjustments still apply with d-link


i have both the eagles "hotel california" and the "tommy" dvd-a's...while both sound great, "tommy" is just not as bass heavy as "hotel"...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke /forum/post/15586262


i also use d-link...


i have 3930ci connected via d-link to a 3806. you are correct in that the 3930ci is reduced to a transport only in this scenario (except for it's video capabilties) but, as stated, the beauty of this connection is it allows all BM and post processing to be done in the rec., and jitter (i know, i know) is reduced to nil.


when i play a dvd-audio or sacd, the display on the 3806 reads, "d-link...ext. in"...


i understand with d-link we are now in the digital domain...but i believe the 0-+15 bass adjustments still apply with d-link


i have both the eagles "hotel california" and the "tommy" dvd-a's...while both sound great, "tommy" is just not as bass heavy as "hotel"...

Just an FYI on my comments....


My "Tommy" is the SACD. I detect no lack of low end with any of the DVD-A's and regular DD or DTS DVD's I have played.


But you may well be right....Tommy may be lean, and in comparison to HC (which I think is excessively hot in the bass) it may seem even MORE lean.


I will check again, but I am pretty sure that in my 3808, the configurable bass boost (0 to 15) is only applicable to the analog connections. Any boost that exists for the other codecs would be non-adjustable, and embedded in the respective decoders.


Brian
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc /forum/post/15586514



...I will check again, but I am pretty sure that in my 3808, the confiurable bass boost (0 to 15) is only applicable to the analog connections. Any boost that exists for the other codecs would be non-adjustable, and embedded in the respective decoders.


Brian

That is my understanding.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc /forum/post/15580307


That said, I am trying to sort out what may be a Bass Management issue with DL when I am playing SACD's. Since there is no actual SACD test media as there is with DVD's and DVD-A, it is impossible to know if it is working right or not, but it seems to me that the bass weight with SACD's is not what it should be. I hear no such issues when playing DVD's or DVD-A's.


To compound the uncertainty, the 3808 is able to take pure DSD via DL, and convert it to PCM such that it can then apply BM, TA, and Audyssey. Or I can play it in Direct Mode w/o processing.


Brian

In case anyone is wondering (!), I think I have sorted this all out. Unless I am again misinterpreting the fine, fine 3808 manual ;-), there are actually three seperate methods for dealing with multichannel DSD over Denonlink. There is info on page 41 of the manual, as well as page 55.


The three modes are: DSD Multi Direct, Multi CH Direct, and Multi-In.


It appears that "DSD Multi Direct" applies absolutely no processing on the signal at all. I suppose if one had 5 full range loudspeakers and a sub, in a properly treated room, with all channels equidistant from the listening chair, that may be the ticket.


"Multi CH Direct" appears to bypass the tone controls and BM, but conversely appears to allow Audyssey to remain active.


And finally,"Multi-In" appears to allow all manner of processing. This was the 1st setting I found that produced proper levels of bass with MC SACDs.


As far as I can tell at this point, here is how to engage each mode:


To go DSD Multi Direct, press the "Direct/Stereo" button, and make sure Audyssey is Toggled Off. The display should say "DSD Multi-Direct". If Audyssey is toggled on while in this mode, the display changes to "Multi CH Direct".


So, as above, to get Multi CH Direct, toggle Audyssey back on. The display should say "Multi CH Direct".


And to engage Multi-In, just press the "Standard" button on the remote. The display will then say "Multi CH In".


As a side note, in a 6.1 or 7.1 set-up, you can also use the "Standard" button to cycle through various Dolby and DTS modes to use a matrixed center back or pair of back channels.


So, does any of this match up with anyone else's findings?


I gave Steely Dan's "Gaucho" 5.1 SACD a spin and lunch, and it sounded very, very nice using Multi-In.


Brian
 
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